Must a person take a butt whoopin before you pull a firearm?

[Jesse]

Lets say youre a little guy, and for some reason a giant of a guy threatens you for a while then catches you out and starts to charrge at you saying he is going to eff you up. Must you take a bad beating and maybe a deadly punch..or can you defend yourself before he attacks using your gun?

[Guest confidence]

You will likely receive a zillion different answers going every possible direction, but here is the crux of the matter: If you or a loved one are truly in fear of death or serious injury, then you have to do what you have to do, including firing your weapon. This includes an unarmed attacker. You have to make that judgement call in the moment. However, don't expect that a jury will side with you. Better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6...

[RobertNashville]

There was a great article a few months ago on the issue of disparity of force and the simple answer is no, you don't have to be within seconds of death from a beating before you can respond with deadly force.  The problem is that many DAs and juries don't always understand the concept of disparity of force and/or don't care and will prosecute anyway and juries may convict anyway.

 

Remember, that in most states the standard is a "reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury"...but it might fall on you and your attorney to educate a DA and/or a jury about why the 200lb 60 year old was in reasonable fear for his life or injury from a beating he was getting from some unarmed 180lb 16 year old thug-want-a-be (especially when the thug-want-a-be's pictures on Facebook are all replaced with pics showing how cute he was when he was 12. ;)

Edited May 22, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Grand Torino]

Look....I'm 63 years old and given the chance I'm not going to allow some young buck to kick my ass. If I feel as if I'm in danger......well enough said.

[Volzfan]

Witnesses would always be a big plus at a trial but that isn't always possible. Even if you aren't criminally prosecuted you will likely be sued by the family. Everyone knows just how sweet and kind that dead gangbanger really was and you were just out looking for a victim!

Edited May 22, 2013 by Volzfan

[bigwakes]

I would say ask Zimmerman. A good shoot can quickly become a nightmare for you if the wrong people decide to make a fuss. Think about the perception of great bodily injury or death. Punched in the nose is not "great bodily injury", unless the attacker is a big guy and the victim is a women, child, elderly, etc.

I had a DA tell me that he felt you can use deadly force to protect your weapon from getting into the hands of an attacker. He was very clear that not all DAs will agree.

[dats82]

Remember also, in many cases of self defense, the defendant does not actually have to use deadly force, but simply demonstrating you are capable is enough persuasion to alter the intent of a would be criminal.  I have exposed my weapon on two occasions, and although I was prepared to do so, I was very thankful that I did not have to actually use it.  I firmly believe that if you produce a weapon, you should be ready to use it, but I do not believe that you have to use it if you draw it.

 

In my opinion, to demonstrate this force sooner rather than later, after the altercation has elevated to a level where you would actually have to use it, is probably better for all involved.  I do not loose sleep over justified shootings; however, I am grateful that I have never been in that situation.  Please don't confuse this logic as an argument for open carry, and Lord help us not to open that can of worms, again.  I do believe that the element of surprise can work to your advantage, and you should always project an aura of confidence and control.  Confidence in your ability and an understanding that you will be in control of the situation. 

 

Just for the record, I am a young, healthy 230 lb male, but I feel no obligation to try to fight someone before I show them that I am prepared to shoot their ass if they are intent on harming me or my companions

[Monkeyman2500]

If someone is threatening for a while then maybe authorities should be called. If your out minding your own business and someone just attacks for no reason I say it is life threatening. If your talking smack back and forth with somebody then are about to take an ass whoopin, take your whoopin.

[RobertNashville]

Witnesses would always be a big plus at a trial but that isn't always possible. Even if you aren't criminally prosecuted you will likely be sued by the family. Everyone knows just how sweet and kind that dead gangbanger really was and you were just out looking for a victim!

In Tennessee being sued by the "family", while always a concern, is almost (note the emphasis on almost) a non-issue.

 

The key is not just to not be prosecuted for the shooting but to have it adjudicated as a justified shooting - once that's happened you have what I believe in Tennessee is an iron-clad affirmative defense to any lawsuit.

 

What you MUST be prepared for anytime you discharge a weapon is a lot of attorney fees...I carry specific insurance to help cover that risk but bottom line is, if you shoot someone you should expect to need an attorney (and a good one).

[RobertNashville]

I would say ask Zimmerman. A good shoot can quickly become a nightmare for you if the wrong people decide to make a fuss. Think about the perception of great bodily injury or death. Punched in the nose is not "great bodily injury", unless the attacker is a big guy and the victim is a women, child, elderly, etc.

I had a DA tell me that he felt you can use deadly force to protect your weapon from getting into the hands of an attacker. He was very clear that not all DAs will agree.

Zimmerman's case will be very interesting to follow once it actually gets going...there has been at least some evidence that the thug-want-a-be was going for Zimmerman's gun and also evidence that Zimmerman had disengaged (was heading back to his vehicle) when he was jumped by Martin.

I just hope, whether Zimmerman is found guilty or innocent, that they find a way to provide a fair trial and that all the facts come out.

[Jesse]

A soccer coach was killed not long ago by a teen that punched him. Its hard to tell if someone just wants to trade a few blows or if they intend to keep beating you if they get the upper hand. Ill never start something but if for some reason someone is intent on fighting me, i wanted to know if i had the right to defend myself with a gun without having to take my chances on a street brawl. I would tell them im not going to fight but will protect myself with my weapon.

[Randall53]

Ok..here is a question I've wondered about. If a situation like we are discussing arises, is it legit to inform the big ass beater that you are armed and just want to be on your way? Or even reach into your pocket but do not draw while stating the same sentence? Edited May 22, 2013 by Randall53

[RobertNashville]

Ok..here is a question I've wondered about. If a situation like we are discussing arises, is it legit to inform the big ass beater that you are armed and just want to be on your way? Or even reach into your pocket but do not draw while stating the same sentence?

I guess you "can" if  you want to but I wouldn't.

 

I'm not going to inform them of anything...I'm going to try and disengage and if I can't disengage and I'm being threatened I'll have to make the decision to draw or not.

[monkeylizard]

TCA defines "Serious Bodily Injury" as

 

      (A ) A substantial risk of death;
      (B ) Protracted unconsciousness;
      (C ) Extreme physical pain;
      (D ) Protracted or obvious disfigurement;
      (E ) Protracted loss or substantial impairment of a function of a bodily member, organ or mental faculty; or
      (F ) A broken bone of a child who is eight (8) years of age or less;
 

Some big angry dude yelling "I'm going to eff you up" to me means some likely combination of B, C, and D.

 

That said, I'd be doing anything I could to get away because I really really really do not want to deal with the aftermath of an SD shooting, whether it's ruled as justified or not.

[RichardR]

I unfortunately suffer from a number of ailments, osteoarthritis, degenerative disk disease, along with multiple ruptured, herniated & buldged disks.

I can usually manage walking short distances without assistance, but I keep a cane handy & even a wheel chair at the house because well some days are worse than others.

I spent 9 months trapped in my wheel chair & spent several years of agony going through physical therapy to get to where I am now.

The greatest fear I usually have is slipping and falling down, there is no way on God's green earth that I am going to allow myself to "take a beating" ..... I will do everything that I can to walk away, but the moment I think that walking away is no-longer an option my pistol is coming out.

Once it comes out of it's holster the person or person(s) who forced that action had better do exactly as I tell them (keep their hands where I can see them & to stay exactly where they are until the police arrive).

I am not a hardass, nor do I ever allow myself to get into shouting matches which could be considered "escallation of an altercation" if God forbid I am ever involved in a self-defense shooting it will have happened because I could not escape & they would not comply with my commands.

[East_TN_Patriot]

The answer to your question is simple: injuries heal and death is permanent.  Our legal system generally believes that every human being has a fundamental right to exist and we don't take people's lives except in the most serious of circumstances.  Seriously, how many people do you know who have gotten a serious butt kicking who didn't survive and were no worse for wear?   Add in the reality that most physical altercations are predicated upon an exchange of verbal jabs and if we allowed the use of deadly force in the face of a simple physical assault, people would have a ready-made defense should they want to kill someone.  All they would have to do is start a verbal altercation, wait for the person to attack, and then kill them claiming self-defense.  

Of course, the totality of the circumstances is important.  Take RichardR above for instance.  A person with numerous ailments that limits their ability to effectively defend themselves is quite different than a young and fit individual.  A small person going up against a larger and more physically fit person is another situation.  What you must do is be able to justify that you reasonably believed there was an imminent risk of death or serious bodily injury as outlined in the TCA, and that deadly force was your last option.  Even the castle doctrine is based on the idea that an intruder poses an immediate risk of death or serious injury to you and your family, not that you are protecting your residence or property.

Also, you have to live with yourself and your decision, so do you really want to live with the idea that you killed some loudmouth to keep from getting a bloody nose?  I certainly don't, especially on top of the risk of being criminally and civilly liable for my actions if they weren't absolutely and clearly justified.  Those who say "better to be judged by 12" have never been the subject of civil and criminal action for an unjustified shooting.  I'd bet a dollar to a donut that Zimmerman wishes he'd kept his butt in his truck, even if the shooting is ultimately ruled as justified.  

[Grand Torino]

The answer to your question is simple: injuries heal and death is permanent.  Our legal system generally believes that every human being has a fundamental right to exist and we don't take people's lives except in the most serious of circumstances.  Seriously, how many people do you know who have gotten a serious butt kicking who didn't survive and were no worse for wear?   Add in the reality that most physical altercations are predicated upon an exchange of verbal jabs and if we allowed the use of deadly force in the face of a simple physical assault, people would have a ready-made defense should they want to kill someone.  All they would have to do is start a verbal altercation, wait for the person to attack, and then kill them claiming self-defense.  

Of course, the totality of the circumstances is important.  Take RichardR above for instance.  A person with numerous ailments that limits their ability to effectively defend themselves is quite different than a young and fit individual.  A small person going up against a larger and more physically fit person is another situation.  What you must do is be able to justify that you reasonably believed there was an imminent risk of death or serious bodily injury as outlined in the TCA, and that deadly force was your last option.  Even the castle doctrine is based on the idea that an intruder poses an immediate risk of death or serious injury to you and your family, not that you are protecting your residence or property.

Also, you have to live with yourself and your decision, so do you really want to live with the idea that you killed some loudmouth to keep from getting a bloody nose?  I certainly don't, especially on top of the risk of being criminally and civilly liable for my actions if they weren't absolutely and clearly justified.  Those who say "better to be judged by 12" have never been the subject of civil and criminal action for an unjustified shooting.  I'd bet a dollar to a donut that Zimmerman wishes he'd kept his butt in his truck, even if the shooting is ultimately ruled as justified.  

I for one could live with the fact that I had to defend myself cause I have no way of knowing if the BG is just going to give me a bloody nose or kill me. To take a beating and hope for the best is ludicrious at best in my book.

[jtmaze]

Jackson, TN in a pool room a man died about 6 mos ago from a one two knockout. fractured his skull when his head hit the floor. I was not there but a friend of mine owns the place and it goes like this....300lb guy and 200lb guy have a disagreement, talk it out and walk away. A few minutes later, 200lb guy 1-2 punches the 300lb guy and he hits the floor....skull cracks and man dies before ambulance arrives. now what was that about taking a whoopin....hmmm.

 

At work and can't post link. happened June 2012 if someone wants to help me out.

Edited May 22, 2013 by jtmaze

[enfield]

I'm too old to take an ass-kicking and I won't warn anybody that I'm armed.

[RobertNashville]

I'm too old to take an ass-kicking and I won't warn anybody that I'm armed.

I agree with Massad Ayoob in that the armed citizen has a duty to avoid confrontation whenever possible.

 

Sometimes that means taking insults, being called names, etc but better that than letting some sort of argument or disagreement get to the point that words become fists and fists become a shooting; "justified" or not.

[Guest Emtdaddy1980]

I've carried DOAs that were the result of "taking a butt wupping" from an un-armed assailant. A well thrown or even just lucky punch can do amazing/horrifying things to the human body. I'm about 210 and a pretty fair boxer/roller, but I'm also the sole bread winner for a family of five and have a career that requires I be physically whole. NO ........I won't be taking any butt wuppings thank you.

[Oh Shoot]

I'm too old to take an ass-kicking and I won't warn anybody that I'm armed.

 

Pretty much my sentiments.

 

If it's serious enough for the gun to come out, perp must make a very quick decision indeed how he's gonna behave from there. Of course, if he has a weapon of any kind, he's already made it.

 

- OS

[East_TN_Patriot]

I for one could live with the fact that I had to defend myself cause I have no way of knowing if the BG is just going to give me a bloody nose or kill me. To take a beating and hope for the best is ludicrious at best in my book.

Based on that logic, it's not a far step to say that anyone acting remotely aggressive and/or belligerent can be shot because they *might* pose a lethal risk because you don't know what could happen.  Having spent a decade in law enforcement and almost another decade teaching about use-of-force, I promise you that the law is not on your side.  Even the police have pretty strict use-of-force guidelines and they have even more latitude in their application of force, at least until they get to deadly force then they have to meet the same legal standards as the rest of us.
 
Ludicrous in your book or not, if you shoot and kill someone over a bloody nose, you are extremely likely to end up in prison and/or owing your entire financial life to the decedent's family.  If you are OK with that, then so be it. 

 

[Grand Torino]

Pretty much my sentiments.

 

If it's serious enough for the gun to come out, perp must make a very quick decision indeed how he's gonna behave from there. Of course, if he has a weapon of any kind, he's already made it.

 

- OS

Exactly.

[Grand Torino]

Based on that logic, it's not a far step to say that anyone acting remotely aggressive and/or belligerent can be shot because they *might* pose a lethal risk because you don't know what could happen.  Having spent a decade in law enforcement and almost another decade teaching about use-of-force, I promise you that the law is not on your side.  Even the police have pretty strict use-of-force guidelines and they have even more latitude in their application of force, at least until they get to deadly force then they have to meet the same legal standards as the rest of us.
 
Ludicrous in your book or not, if you shoot and kill someone over a bloody nose, you are extremely likely to end up in prison and/or owing your entire financial life to the decedent's family.  If you are OK with that, then so be it. 

 

Let us all know how that butt kicking you take turns out some day because you refused to defend yourself. Look...I'm not a tough guy and never look for a fight and avoid confrontation more than most. But I'm not going to stand there and take a beating from some asshole if I have the means to stop it. You may as well leave your weapon at home if you never plan to defend yourself or your family. Good lucky reading a BG's mind and telling a judge I though he was just going to punch me once and walk away but in reality he dealt out bodily harm or even death to your loved ones.