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Ohio man files $3M lawsuit after being harrassed for legally OCing

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101 Established Contributor

101

Posted
Posted

What's his back ground? Is he wanted by the police? Is he a felon? How else was the police to know, if they did not ask his name? How many of you posters ever work or do work in LE?
 
Dave S


Good quality Jack booted response.

Cops always say "How Am I supposed to know if he's a criminal?".

The answer is easy. When he commits a crime, arrest him.

your philosophy is why don't we just stop him and find out if he is committing a crime?

Why don't we just pull over everybody in a vehicle on the street to find out if they are driving with a suspended license?
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Chucktshoes
Chucktshoes

His actions (regardless of whether you agree with them or not) were not reasonable evidence of wrongdoing. In a state where unlicensed OC is legal, the courts have rules that the open carrying of a gu

monkeylizard
monkeylizard

No, with all respect, I think you are missing the point. Open carrying a firearm is NOT a crime in Ohio. The MWAG call in this case, under Ohio law, would be exactly the same as if someone had called

c.a.willard
c.a.willard

Dave S with all due respect to you and other LE you are still missing the point.  Under Ohio law open carrying of a firearm is not crime.  So the police did not have any reason to suspect that the ind

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Chucktshoes Postus Maximus

Chucktshoes

Posted
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Posted



So your answer is to treat the average citizen as if they are a criminal because somebody might do something bad with a gun? This is the same argument that Bloomberg and his ilk use in their fight to disarm us.

Who is he? What's his background? Can he legaly have that gun on him? Questions I would want answers to if I was the responding officer. And it has nothing to do with a "Police State". It has everything to do with what is expected of me and what the tax payers pay me to do. Put yourselves in those cops shoes. What would you have done?

Dave S


Who is he? What is his background? Can he legally have that gun? Without PC that he either has or is committing a crime, that information is all of the citizen's and none of the officer's business.
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Smith Postus Maximus

Smith

Posted
Posted

What's his back ground? Is he wanted by the police? Is he a felon? How else was the police to know, if they did not ask his name? How many of you posters ever work or do work in LE?



Dave S



Good quality Jack booted response.


Cops always say "How Am I supposed to know if he's a criminal?".


The answer is easy. When he commits a crime, arrest him.


your philosophy is why don't we just stop him and find out if he is committing a crime?


Why don't we just pull over everybody in a vehicle on the street to find out if they are driving with a suspended license?

Because they were responding to a call. They didn't initiate this only responded to one citizens complaint against another.

As to why they didn't just observe and leave is because the leo would be assuming liability at that point on a personal level as well as for the city. Sued if they do sued if they don't, but if I'm the le I'm not hoping to allow anything I do to be pinned to me personally. I'll follow the book and let the city work it out.

Stop the law suits and this wouldn't be such an issue. BTW - your not supposed to be able to sue for non damages, but I guess strict adherence to the law only works one way.
DaveTN Postus Maximus

DaveTN

Posted
Posted
We don’t know what reasons the Officers gave for what they did. If the state wants them to disregard man with a gun calls; they need to say so. This isn’t rocket science. If they don’t stop and question the guy and he kills a bunch of people the victims’ families will sue the city; chose your poison.

State legislators and the state AG needs to make the laws clear for everyone.
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DaveS Postus Maximus

DaveS

Posted
Posted

He could/should have taken the officers' names and badge numbers and filed a formal complaint and waited to see if anything happened.  He may well have done that, the article doesn't say.  But recent history tells us that the most effective way to get such things addressed is to sue.  Sad but true.

 

 


 

Exactly.  Rather than taking someone else's word for it ([sarcasm]... because people who call 911 never see things that didn't happen...[[/sarcasm]  ), why not observe and verify for yourself whether there's any illegal activity or not.  If there's no illegal activity, then find the caller and inform them as such. 

If Mr. Call had a felony record, he could not have that handgun on him. And agian, I ask how do the cops know this if they don't ask the guy his name?

 

Dave S

DaveS Postus Maximus

DaveS

Posted
Posted (edited)

Who is he? What is his background? Can he legally have that gun? Without PC that he either has or is committing a crime, that information is all of the citizen's and none of the officer's business.

 

 

Who is he? What is his background? Can he legally have that gun? Without PC that he either has or is committing a crime, that information is all of the citizen's and none of the officer's business.

I disagree 100%!!! Probable cause came when a complaint was recorded on the 911 system of a man with a gun!  The store clerk (or whoever called 911) had no idea if that man was legal in his actions. The responding officers had no idea either, until they questioned him. Mr. Call chose to play hardball with the cops. The ball is in his court now. I hope the Judge goes easy on him. Most likely he paid his attorney in advance!

 

Dave S

Edited by DaveS
RobertNashville Postus Maximus

RobertNashville

Posted
Posted

Police are required to respond to MWG calls. Period. And if determining whether a crime has been commited, will be committed and/or for public safety in general, cops must ask you your name at times. Your answer or lack thereof, tells the LEO alot about you. I don't agree with the situation either, but I totally disagree with the lawsuit filed. In conclusion; If you don't ever want questioned by LE, DON'T carry a weapon. All it's gonna take is some little old lady to see, call 911 and you will be confronted.

 

Later

 

Dave S

So they will respond...unless the man was actually doing something illegal (which carrying a gun openly in Ohio without a permit isn't illegal) then they should have done nothing more than show up and leave again.

RobertNashville Postus Maximus

RobertNashville

Posted
Posted (edited)

I agree with all concerned, myself included. How many people with a felony conviction can legaly OC/CC a handgun? How many people on Ohio's wanted list walk around OC'ing because it's legal and LEO isn't allowed to question him? How many movie shootings can be averted because two LEO's persued a complaint and attempted to clear up a matter? How many  Charles Mansons, Ralph Holmes, Wayne Williams, Jeffery Dalmer's and hundreds of thousands more that get caught because a cop ID'd them? Maybe the cops in this situation went a tad too far. However, had they not acted, and the guy with a gun went astray, people would be asking for their jobs. Being in LEO is a no win situation because of people's rights and little feelings get hurt. Give the cop your name and move on. But no...too easy.

 

Dave S

Open you door and say "come right on in officer, even without a warrant...I have nothing to hide".

I don't know why people get so worked up over their "little rights".  ;)

Edited by RobertNashville
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Chucktshoes Postus Maximus

Chucktshoes

Posted
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Who is he? What is his background? Can he legally have that gun? Without PC that he either has or is committing a crime, that information is all of the citizen's and none of the officer's business.




Who is he? What is his background? Can he legally have that gun? Without PC that he either has or is committing a crime, that information is all of the citizen's and none of the officer's business.

I disagree 100%!!! Probable cause came when a complaint was recorded on the 911 system of a man with a gun! The store clerk (or whoever called 911) had no idea if that man was legal in his actions. The responding officers had no idea either, until they questioned him. Mr. Call chose to play hardball with the cops. The ball is in his court now. I hope the Judge goes easy on him. Most likely he paid his attorney in advance!

Dave S


In that disagreement you would be 100% wrong under the laws of Ohio. In TN where the carrying of a gun is a crime you would be correct. That is not the case in Ohio where OC is a perfectly legal activity and as such, the presence of a gun does not in and of itself rise to the level of PC for the officers to initiate a stop and detain the citizen.
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DaveS Postus Maximus

DaveS

Posted
Posted

So they will respond...unless the man was actually doing something illegal (which carrying a gun openly in Ohio without a permit isn't illegal) then they should have done nothing more than show up and leave again.

Was he a convicted felon? Was he on probation?

 

Dave S

DaveS Postus Maximus

DaveS

Posted
Posted

In that disagreement you would be 100% wrong under the laws of Ohio. In TN where the carrying of a gun is a crime you would be correct. That is not the case in Ohio where OC is a perfectly legal activity and as such, the presence of a gun does not in and of itself rise to the level of PC for the officers to initiate a stop and detain the citizen.

 

In that disagreement you would be 100% wrong under the laws of Ohio. In TN where the carrying of a gun is a crime you would be correct. That is not the case in Ohio where OC is a perfectly legal activity and as such, the presence of a gun does not in and of itself rise to the level of PC for the officers to initiate a stop and detain the citizen.

You are missing the whole point.

 

Dave S

monkeylizard Postus Maximus

monkeylizard

Posted
Posted (edited)

No, with all respect, I think you are missing the point. Open carrying a firearm is NOT a crime in Ohio. The MWAG call in this case, under Ohio law, would be exactly the same as if someone had called in a "man walking down the street in a turtleneck sweater"*. It's not a crime. There is no PC that a crime has been or is going to be commited just because a call was placed.

 

 

 

*the fashion police may disagree.

Edited by monkeylizard
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101 Established Contributor

101

Posted
Posted

Open you door and say "come right on in officer, even without a warrant...I have nothing to hide".
I don't know why people get so worked up over their "little rights".  ;)


Cops kill me with their whole"if you aren't a LEO, then you have no idea...blah blah blah". When I hear that line, I hear this instead "Those damn citizens' rights, why can't I just bust his skull now and if I'm wrong then I'll just release him and say sorry".

How dare the common peasantry question my job (authority)? Doesn't he know he might be a bad guy? It's my job to determine if he might be or could possibly in the future do something bad, even though at the time he is not?
mav Prolific Contributor

mav

Posted
Posted

Just out of curiousity, wouldn't seeing a man OCing tell police officers that the man was more than likely not a criminal?  I could be really off base, but it seems to me that a criminal or someone who was a threat would be carrying concealed.  Why would they advertise and draw attention to themselves by OCing?  The short answer is they wouldn't.

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DaveS Postus Maximus

DaveS

Posted
Posted

Good quality Jack booted response.

Cops always say "How Am I supposed to know if he's a criminal?".

 

How about, "how do I know he's NOT a criminal?"

DaveS Postus Maximus

DaveS

Posted
Posted

Just out of curiousity, wouldn't seeing a man OCing tell police officers that the man was more than likely not a criminal?  I could be really off base, but it seems to me that a criminal or someone who was a threat would be carrying concealed.  Why would they advertise and draw attention to themselves by OCing?  The short answer is they wouldn't.

Maybe because CRIMINALS who OPEN CARRY will not be questioned by Police because it's their RIGHT to open carry and not be questioned?. Why not just tell the cops "hey, I'm Joe Smith"...done and you're gone on your way. Let me ask you this....would you have given the police your CCW permit and/or name to clear this up right away?

 

Dave S

TMF Postus Maximus

TMF

Posted
Posted
Eh, looks to me like there are no good guys to root for here. This guy appears to have been trolling for contact with his behavior when approached. The cops were incredibly unprofessional and wrong (dare I say abusive) with threats to charge him with various crimes although he had not committed a single crime. Being a dick to the cops is not a crime, but it doesn't win any points with me. He surely does not deserve 3 mil. Maybe an apology and a case of beer. The cops involved deserve remedial training and latrine duty for a month.
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Chucktshoes Postus Maximus

Chucktshoes

Posted
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Posted



Good quality Jack booted response.


Cops always say "How Am I supposed to know if he's a criminal?".




How about, "how do I know he's NOT a criminal?"



Wow. Just wow.
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101 Established Contributor

101

Posted
Posted

How about, "how do I know he's NOT a criminal?"


I know right? That pesky Constitution gets in the way every time. How about everyone is innocent until proven otherwise? Do we need to violate one's right to be safe and secure in our persons in order to see if he might be, maybe, possibly committing a crime that can only be determined if you violate his rights?

Let's say that person had committed any number of crimes then yes, check to see if he is a felon. BUT!!! In the state of Ohio it is NOT a crime to open carry and has been ruled by their own court system that simply open carrying a firearm alone does not warrant a crime or an offense to be detained over!!

So this whole argument of "how do I know he is not a criminal" is moot unless you violate his rights to find out. According to most (not all) cops, that is OK because it's hard being LEO and we peasants just don't understand.
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peejman Postus Maximus

peejman

Posted
Posted

How about, "how do I know he's NOT a criminal?"

 

 

Guilty until proven innocent?

 

 

 

Maybe because CRIMINALS who OPEN CARRY will not be questioned by Police because it's their RIGHT to open carry and not be questioned?. Why not just tell the cops "hey, I'm Joe Smith"...done and you're gone on your way. Let me ask you this....would you have given the police your CCW permit and/or name to clear this up right away?

 

Dave S

 

 

I think you're giving criminals a bit too much credit.  It would take an above average intelligence criminal to pursue that line of reasoning (which is entirely valid). 

 

If it was me, I would've asked why they want to see my ID.  Then I would've asked what I've done wrong.  Barring a good answer to those questions, I'd politely remind them that OC isn't a crime.  If they continued to press the matter politely, yes, I'd show them my ID.  I don't think I'd let it get as far as Mr. Call did before giving in and I sure wouldn't get belligerent, but we don't know how fast the situation escalated.  Then I'd get their names and badge numbers and file a complaint with their supervisor.  Would I sue?  Highly doubtful.  Maybe only if they cuffed and stuffed me for no reason. 

DaveS Postus Maximus

DaveS

Posted
Posted (edited)

No, with all respect, I think you are missing the point. Open carrying a firearm is NOT a crime in Ohio. The MWAG call in this case, under Ohio law, would be exactly the same as if someone had called in a "man walking down the street in a turtleneck sweater"*. It's not a crime. There is no PC that a crime has been or is going to be commited just because a call was placed.
 
 
 
*the fashion police may disagree.

Sir; with all due respect to you, and me being an X resident and current property owner in the state of Ohio, open carrying by a felon or someone on probation is AGAINST THE LAW. The cops had no idea whether Mr. Call was LEGAL or NOT LEGAL for carrying a handgun until he GAVE THEM HIS NAME!  What is so hard about that?
 
Carrying a handgun in the state of Tennessee is ok if you have a HCP. What would you do if a cop ask you for a HCP when you was carrying? Tell him/her NOYB? Yeah right...
 
Dave S Edited by DaveS
monkeylizard Postus Maximus

monkeylizard

Posted
Posted (edited)
It's also against the law in Ohio for a person wih a suspended license to drive. That doesn't mean the officers can stop a driver who has broken no traffic laws to see their license to see if it was suspended. Edited by monkeylizard
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