why are you still buying ammo?

[RobertNashville]

In our state, TN, the state government has done NOTHING to indicate that there is any sort of government threat to gun/ammo ownership.  Further, the attempts to pass new laws at the Federal level have failed, at least for now - although there is a chance that such efforts will be revived and perhaps sooner than we think.  So, at this time, there is NO reason, in this state, for any sort of 'market distortion' created by government entities because - at this, specific time - the government hasn't done and isn't doing anything.

 

Therefore, there is NO reason the ammo shelves at gun stores, sporting goods stores and Walmart locations in this part of the country should be empty.  They are empty because 1. a few people are buying up all the ammo in order to resell it at artificially inflated prices and 2. some folks - probably those same profiteers - are perpetuating the MYTH that any minute now new government regulations will go into effect - and they are doing so in order to use the government boogie man to justify the ridiculous prices of their falsely inflated market.

Oh come on...no one is talking about "state" government...the concern is what the FEDERAL government might do that has most people running scared. Besides, Tennessee does not exist in a vacuum...what happens in other states like New York and Oregon scares people in Tennessee too.

 

Yes, the Congress failed in round one...but the fight is hardly over and multiple congressmen have said so...all they need is the next inevitable "mass shooting" to come back full speed (not to mention multiple EOs that require no congressional approval).  People know that and people are scared and are acting accordingly.  That's why we have shortages of a lot of things right now. You can claim there is no reason for these shortages all you want but "people" get scared and do stupid things all the time and right now they are running scared; logic be damned.

 

Complaining about it or espousing about how stupid it isn't going to change it; especially doing so here because, while I can't know for certain, I suspect that the people who might benefit from what you are saying don't hang out on firearm related forums.

[JAB]

Without the scalper and assuming stores kept prices at prior levels, only the first few customers would be able to purchase products for themselves.

 

I disagree.  In fact, without the scalper cleaning out the shelves every time a new shipment of stock comes in, the scare would die down and there would be plenty of ammo for all of those, other customers.  Think about it, other than times when there have been ammo scares and scalpers cleaning out the shelves, have you ever walked into a Walmart and had trouble finding at least some kind of .22LR ammo on the shelf?  In fact, other than such times, have you ever seen the bulk packs of .22LR completely wiped out?

 

Sure, the initial scare might have a few folks buying up ammo and burying it in PVC pipes in their back yards but I think the market would have started to return to normal by now if that was all that was going on.  However, the scalpers perpetuate the ILLUSION of an ammo shortage and, therefore, prolong the scare.  Such scalpers, then, are NOT providing a 'service'.  Instead, they are a part of the problem, in the first place.

[JAB]

Oh come on...no one is talking about "state" government...the concern is what the FEDERAL government might do that has most people running scared. Besides, Tennessee does not exist in a vacuum...what happens in other states like New York and Oregon scares people in Tennessee too.

 

Yes, the Congress failed in round one...but the fight is hardly over and multiple congressmen have said so...all they need is the next inevitable "mass shooting" to come back full speed (not to mention multiple EOs that require no congressional approval).  People know that and people are scared and are acting accordingly.  That's why we have shortages of a lot of things right now. You can claim there is no reason for these shortages all you want but "people" get scared and do stupid things all the time and right now they are running scared; logic be damned.

 

Complaining about it or espousing about how stupid it isn't going to change it; especially doing so here because, while I can't know for certain, I suspect that the people who might benefit from what you are saying don't hang out on firearm related forums.

 

The Federal government MIGHT do anything at any, given time.  However, based on what they HAVE done and, perhaps more importantly, what they have failed to do, I stand by my statement.  No, I am not naive enough to believe the threat of government action has passed but I am saying that it is time for everyone to calm down a little.

 

Further, my main point was that - to my knowledge - there has been no, serious attempt to do anything that would impact a person's ability to purchase .22LR ammo.  I can actually understand, to a point, people buying certain guns, "while they still can" or "before Federal background checks become a reality."  I can understand picking up a few, extra 15 round mags for pistols (or even 30 rounders), just in case.  I can understand picking up AR mags, parts, etc.  I can even understand panic buying of .223, .556 and even 7.62X39 ammo.  That said, the only government 'threat' to .22LR ammo and the like of which I am aware is that of the boogie man being perpetuated largely by those who want to dupe people into purchasing cheap, bulk pack ammo at beyond premium rates.

Edited May 15, 2013 by JAB

[Hershmeister]

Sorry, but in your fantasy world where everyone will suddenly only buy one box of ammo off the shelf even when only 10 are present does not exist in reality.

There is a reason why prices go up when demand increases and supply does not. You can not wish it away.

Just try this next time there is a natural disaster - go to the back of the line at a store selling gasoline, generators or any other high demand good. There will be none left for you. And if your need is great, then you will be hoping that you can buy one from somebody and you will be willing to pay a premium.

PS: Please no discussion of morals here - we are discussing the dismal science after all

[JAB]

Sorry, but in your fantasy world where everyone will suddenly only buy one box of ammo off the shelf even when only 10 are present does not exist in reality.

 

 

Again, in normal times - when scaremongers aren't cleaning out the local Walmart shelves and perpetuating the myth that no one will be able to get any ammo, soon - how often have you walked into Walmart and not been able to find .22LR ammo?  The truth is that the answer is likely 'never' and that is not a fantasy.  It is reality.  The current Bizarro world where someone would pay a couple hundred dollars for an $18 bulk pack of .22 ammo because 'Obama ain't gonna let you have it no more' is the twisted, dark 'fantasy'.

Edited May 15, 2013 by JAB

[Hershmeister]

We agree then that these are not normal times

[JAB]

We agree then that these are not normal times

 

Oh, absolutely.  Where we apparently disagree is on the idea of how much ammo scalpers are contributing to the scaremongering and perpetuating the abnormality.  You say the profiteers are providing a 'service'.  I say that they are part of the problem as, without them constantly cleaning out store shelves, things would return to 'normal' much more quickly and any of us would be able to walk into Walmart and purchase ammo.  Probably not immediately as there would still be those folks looking to spend their tax returns on ammo to bury in the back yard.  However, without scalpers perpetuating the problem I expect that normality would return much, much more quickly.

 

IOW, you think they are providing a service while I believe what they are doing is a disservice to the average ammo buyer.

Edited May 15, 2013 by JAB

[RobertNashville]

Oh, absolutely.  Where we apparently disagree is on the idea of how much ammo scalpers are contributing to the scaremongering and perpetuating the abnormality.  You say the profiteers are providing a 'service'.  I say that they are part of the problem as, without them constantly cleaning out store shelves, things would return to 'normal' much more quickly and any of us would be able to walk into Walmart and purchase ammo.  Probably not immediately as there would still be those folks looking to spend their tax returns on ammo to bury in the back yard.  However, without scalpers perpetuating the problem I expect that normality would return much, much more quickly.

 

IOW, you think they are providing a service while I believe what they are doing is a disservice to the average ammo buyer.

Rather than just complaining about the "scalpers" and how much they are contributing to the problem; how about some actual data to back up the assertions?  Opinions are fine but at the end of the day; not terribly important or meaningful.

 

I say they are providing a service; they have ammo to sell for people who want to buy it at the price they are asking. Just because you don't like the price doesn't change the fact that for the people who are buying ammo they way they are getting a need fulfilled.

 

If that is a disservice to the "average ammo buyer"; maybe they shouldn't wait until there is a crisis (real or imagined) and should have been buying ammo all along.  Most people who aren't sheeple understand that storm clouds brewing out there...I can't help but wonder how the sheep dogs area going to protect anybody (including themselves) if a relatively short-term ammo shortage upsets the apple cart as much as it has for some folks...what kind of situation would the "average ammo buyer" be in if there was not more ammo at all???   :panic: 

Edited May 15, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Grunt67]

In 2013, thus far, I've bought one box of 40s at a gun show, 3 boxes at Walmart, and 2 boxes at Ft. Campbell,

to replace what I have allowed myself to shoot up.These were at reasonable prices. I flat refuse to buy at

double or triple price from anyone. That includes reloading components.

Obviously, I haven't shot a lot of ammo lately. I have what I consider as a fair amount on hand ( not in the thousands ).

Personally, I can't see where scalpers, or whatever you want to call 'em, do us a service. We were getting along

just fine before they started their practice. If someone wants to pay $2 a round for ammo, I guess that's up to them.

As they say, there's one born every minute.

Getting gouged just never appealed to me.

JMHO

[Guest glklvr]

Rather than just complaining about the "scalpers" and how much they are contributing to the problem; how about some actual data to back up the assertions?  Opinions are fine but at the end of the day; not terribly important or meaningful.

 

I say they are providing a service; they have ammo to sell for people who want to buy it at the price they are asking. Just because you don't like the price doesn't change the fact that for the people who are buying ammo they way they are getting a need fulfilled.

 

If that is a disservice to the "average ammo buyer"; maybe they shouldn't wait until there is a crisis (real or imagined) and should have been buying ammo all along.  Most people who aren't sheeple understand that storm clouds brewing out there...I can't help but wonder how the sheep dogs area going to protect anybody (including themselves) if a relatively short-term ammo shortage upsets the apple cart as much as it has for some folks...what kind of situation would the "average ammo buyer" be in if there was not more ammo at all???   :panic: 

 

I agree. Everyone likes to blame high prices and scarcity on resellers, but how much of an impact do they REALLY have? There would literally have to be thousands of people lining up every day at every Walmart across the country.

[JAB]

I say they are providing a service; they have ammo to sell for people who want to buy it at the price they are asking. Just because you don't like the price doesn't change the fact that for the people who are buying ammo they way they are getting a need fulfilled.

 

But without the scalpers buying ammo and jacking up prices, more of those same people would be able to purchase ammo at regular, retail prices in regular, retail outlets.  How is beating those buyers to the ammo and then charging them double or triple the normal price providing a 'service'?  Adding an addition, unnecessary 'middle man' to the process of buying an item one could ordinarily purchase through the usual channels and jacking up prices in the process isn't providing a service.  Neither is perpetuating the illusion that there is a shortage of supply.

 

 

If that is a disservice to the "average ammo buyer"; maybe they shouldn't wait until there is a crisis (real or imagined) and should have been buying ammo all along.

 

I do hope that more people learn that lesson from the current insanity.  For the most part, it was a hard lesson that I learned from the last ammo 'shortage' - as soon as things returned to 'normal' last time, I began buying an extra box here and there until I built a decent (not huge but decent) on hand supply of ammo in the various calibers that I shoot.  I also started reloading a couple of revolver calibers and so have a 'decent' on hand supply of .38 Special and the potential to load some .357 and .44 ammo.  Last year, well before the current scare, I even decided to buy a lever action rifle in either .357 or .44 (ended up with a .44 because .357s were scarce even then) so I would have a long gun in a chambering for which I was already set up to reload, just in case such were needed for hunting/survival.

 

Last summer, I had a feeling that even .22LR ammo was going to get scarce so I bought a few, extra bulk packs of it.  Because of that, I have some .22LR on hand.  I can shoot my .22 LR rifles and handguns if I want.  Heck, I even put a few boxes of .22 WMR back, just in case.  That said, my supply is not infinite - I will eventually need to buy more - nor is my supply large enough that, with the current ammo nonsense, I feel comfortable shooting .22LR in the volume that I did, before.  I would like to see the insanity end, not because I don't have any ammo but instead so that I could go back to my normal volume of shooting.  I am also loathe to see how much the normal, retail prices of ammo will likely increase - even after things return to normal - because of all this nonsense.

 

As far as 'proof' of how much the profiteers are impacting the situation, such an in-depth study would obviously be more than my limited time and resources would allow.  However, I can offer some pretty strong albeit anecdotal evidence.  I have spoken with Sporting Goods employees at many of the area Walmart locations and all of them have said, basically, the same thing.  They are getting ammo in and the same people come in every morning when the ammo goes out, often in groups, and buy up everything before anyone else has a chance at it.  These employees have said that the people in those groups have even gone so far as to brag about buying the ammo just to resell it at higher prices.  If the people who are working the counter say that these folks are consistently and repeatedly acting in a way that keeps others from being able to buy ammo at Walmart then I tend to believe them.

Edited May 15, 2013 by JAB

[TripleDigitRide]

There are approximately 4000 Wal-Mart stores in the U.S. If there were just 1 scalper at each WM, that would be 4000 scalpers. I'd be willing to bet that number could easily be quadrupled to 20,000. That doesn't include those who are scalping from other retailers and the internet.

[Randall53]

"Scalpers" actually perform a valuable service. It may not seem that way, but in a market where demand outstrips supply, they ensure that the customer who has to have the product the "most" and is willing and able to pay for it can get it.

Without the scalper and assuming stores kept prices at prior levels, only the first few customers would be able to purchase products for themselves.

The scalper creates the opportunity for a secondary market accessible to more people. Note I did not say more affordable. Just more accessible.

Now one argument that has been made here is that it is the scalper who is creating the supply problem. But that is not the case at all, because if one were to believe that you would also have to believe there isn't a demand problem either.

This is basic micro economics.

That all being said, I totally understand the frustration of not being able to find the thing we want at the prices they "should be at, but there are always substitutes. Shoot cheaper calibers reload, enjoy a different hobby while you wait for things to cool down, etc.

The market will correct itself. It always does. God bless the invisible hand.

 

Well, in my world, a person that goes and buys ammo at regular prices online or camps at a Walmart with 6 or 7 of his family and friends so he can get by a purchasing limit so they can snatch up every box of ammo they have and sell it at 3 times the price is a common thief in my book, not an asset to society.  Obviously some of you don't agree and that's fine, but that's the way I see it. It's wrong on more levels than one. Just because some people are foolish enough to pay don't make it right. They are also making money in cash and not paying taxes on it. That's the same as the people that just decides to not pay their income taxes while everyone else does.

 

Anyway, I'm done......I'm pretty much set on everything I shoot and I didn't pay ridiculous prices for it either, but it did take patience and some luck.  I will be glad though when things get back to normal IF it ever does. Of course I'm sure "normal" is gonna change too.  Just like it did 4 years ago.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Randall53

[2006Blackpearl931]

A perk of owning your own business is being the boss and setting your own hours. That being said, I keep thinking about going to Walmart and beating the scalpers out of the loot. I mean camp out if I have to. And then resell it to my friends and fellow shooters for absolutely zero profit. I think I would enjoy telling the guy in line behind me that it isn't for me, because I reload and don't shoot crappy Win White box ammo anyhow, that I'm going to make sure actual shooters get ammo at normal prices, instead of some sleaze bag with no job hanging around Walmart just looking to rip my friends off. How's that for an economic plan?

[itchytriggerfinger]

[Randall53]

 

LMAO.......Now that thar is some funny chit!

[Hershmeister]

A perk of owning your own business is being the boss and setting your own hours. That being said, I keep thinking about going to Walmart and beating the scalpers out of the loot. I mean camp out if I have to. And then resell it to my friends and fellow shooters for absolutely zero profit. I think I would enjoy telling the guy in line behind me that it isn't for me, because I reload and don't shoot crappy Win White box ammo anyhow, that I'm going to make sure actual shooters get ammo at normal prices, instead of some sleaze bag with no job hanging around Walmart just looking to rip my friends off. How's that for an economic plan?

From an economics perspective this plan shows you don't consider the opportunity cost of your time. But you may get some intangible benefit by providing this charitable service.

[RobertNashville]

But without the scalpers buying ammo and jacking up prices, more of those same people would be able to purchase ammo at regular, retail prices in regular, retail outlets.  How is beating those buyers to the ammo and then charging them double or triple the normal price providing a 'service'?  Adding an addition, unnecessary 'middle man' to the process of buying an item one could ordinarily purchase through the usual channels and jacking up prices in the process isn't providing a service.  Neither is perpetuating the illusion that there is a shortage of supply.

 

Respectfully; that's an assumption and one that can't really be backed up with anything meaningful.

 

A lot of this angst seems to be centered around Wallyworld...a place I do my best to avoid - if I can't buy ammo or firearm accessories or firearms from my local gun store or online from an firearm/shooting sports website then I'll do without for a while but I won't go to Walmart!

[Guest 556or762]

Just for fun I looked up the post histories of everyone posting on this thread and guess what! Those that are saying its ok to pay higher prices have been posting ammo for sale.... Suprise, suprise, suprise, if I didn't know any better I would read a little into that. Glad I know better huh.

[broox]

I do not think it is the "scalpers" that are the problem.  I think it is people willing to pay 1$ a round for 223 or 60 cents a round for 9mm.

 

Those are the people that need some learnin.

Edited May 16, 2013 by broox

[RobertNashville]

Just for fun I looked up the post histories of everyone posting on this thread and guess what! Those that are saying its ok to pay higher prices have been posting ammo for sale.... Suprise, suprise, suprise, if I didn't know any better I would read a little into that. Glad I know better huh.

Really?  Well, I'm saying it okay to pay the higher prices if people want to do so and I have no ammo for sale and haven't had any for sale in a while...what I did sell last time I had any was left over ammo in  a caliber I didn't own any longer and I sold the lot for less per round than I paid for it.

 

You seem to be implying that anyone who has ammo for sale is price gouging (or do you just have something against people who sell ammo at any price?)...since you've already looked everyone's post histories and insinuating that those posters are doing something wrong, why not go all the way; name names and provide links to back up your assertions?

Edited May 16, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Guest 556or762]

Feel guilty? I have already stated my issue with second/ third party sales right now, it needs no further clarification. I will point out I said "those" and should have said "some of those" I think you can find the spot and insert above.

[2006Blackpearl931]

I was being facetious. Simply to put an end to the argument. There is no "one" person to blame. Textbook supply and demand here people, however unfortunate that may be.

[Guest glklvr]

Amazing the number of gun owners who become out-of-the-closet socialists when supply and demand hits something THEY think should be cheaper.

[jcoosi]

Failing to prepare is preparing to fail.