why are you still buying ammo?

[ArmyBrat61]

Only reason I buy ammo is cuz I can't find lead, powder or primers..................kinda like now......

[Raoul]

Only reason I buy ammo is cuz I can't find lead, powder or primers..................kinda like now......

Brother you need to get to a gunshow and see David. He'll be at Meadowview. I think the next show is in August.

[ArmyBrat61]

I've PMd David and he has the powder I need but he is way over on the other side of the state.......maybe we should set up a TGO relay system???? :up:

[Randall53]

What does it really matter?  I buy ammo from local gun stores and online but if someone want's to buy ammo from another person and is willing to pay the price why care?

It's a willing seller and a willing buyer - isn't that what the free market is supposed to be about?  :shrug:

 

I see a big difference in free market and what's going on with ammo IMO. It's pure greed and giving everyone that enjoys the shooting sports the finger.  It's the fact that the AH scalpers are buying up the ammo at normal prices from normal retailers by circumventing the rules and limits established by retailers trying to supply the general public and being fair with the supply. They're selfishly jerking it right out of circulation before normal buyers can buy at normal prices which sustains the shortage for their benefit. Then they mark it up 200% yet they don't pay taxes on the 200% profit which is further crapping on everyone including the honest taxpayer and the normal shooters that buy ammo. I don't buy from the scalpers. They can KMA.  I've been lucky I guess and have procured enough online and just lucked up on what I've needed and am pretty good now.  The last I bought was from Palmetto State Armory where I bought 40S&W for $26 a box of 50 which included shipping. Personally I'd love to see them start getting notices from the IRS on the tax issue.  They don't give a damn about us....why should we give a damn about them?

[Raoul]

I've PMd David and he has the powder I need but he is way over on the other side of the state.......maybe we should set up a TGO relay system???? :up:

Well there's always the Knoxville shows, and he will be coming to NE TN.

[ArmyBrat61]

Well there's always the Knoxville shows, and he will be coming to NE TN.

Wonderful! I have my money stash ready.

[D3vo]

Why? To replace what I shoot. Do I buy inflated prices no, but if I wanted to what business is it of anyone else?

Someone should start a Concealed vs Open Carry or Property rights vs 2nd amendment thread. We haven't beat those horses enough yet either.

[RobertNashville]

Not so much telling them what to do with their money as telling them that paying such inflated prices is pretty stupid and only perpetuates the problem.

 

I still do not agree that this is simply the 'free market'.  In a 'free market', everyone would have the same access to, for instance, Walmart ammo at Walmart prices.  As the profiteers are interfering with such access by using dishonest tactics (such as bypassing the purchase limits) to clean out the ammo case at Walmart before anyone else has a chance to make a purchase - not for personal use but with the intention of reselling the ammo at a marked increase in price.  So, again, these people are interfering with normal flow of the free market.

We'll just have to disagree.

 

Frankly; if I decided I HAD to have some 22LR right now and couldn't find it through normal channels then I'd be paying the exorbitant prices too because it would be worth it to me. Thankfully; I'm not in that situation but my being able to make that decision for myself is the free market at work.

[RobertNashville]

I see a big difference in free market and what's going on with ammo IMO. It's pure greed and giving everyone that enjoys the shooting sports the finger.  It's the fact that the AH scalpers are buying up the ammo at normal prices from normal retailers by circumventing the rules and limits established by retailers trying to supply the general public and being fair with the supply. They're selfishly jerking it right out of circulation before normal buyers can buy at normal prices which sustains the shortage for their benefit. Then they mark it up 200% yet they don't pay taxes on the 200% profit which is further crapping on everyone including the honest taxpayer and the normal shooters that buy ammo. I don't buy from the scalpers. They can KMA.  I've been lucky I guess and have procured enough online and just lucked up on what I've needed and am pretty good now.  The last I bought was from Palmetto State Armory where I bought 40S&W for $26 a box of 50 which included shipping. Personally I'd love to see them start getting notices from the IRS on the tax issue.  They don't give a damn about us....why should we give a damn about them?

Well...I don't see the difference.

 

Once you start throwing around words like "selfish" and "greedy" it's no longer about the free market; it's just about some people being angry about prices and availability.

If I buy at "X" price and sell for "Y" price...nothing could be more free market than that.  The fact that the "Y" price is higher than many want to pay is understandable but also immaterial. Anytime there is more demand than supply for anything the price will rise. At some point there will be enough ammo to go around and the prices will drop. Until then we either pay what is being asked or go without but complaining about those who buy now at the higher price is a bit like spitting in the wind.

Edited May 15, 2013 by RobertNashville

[D3vo]

[/quote]
The last I bought was from Palmetto State Armory where I bought 40S&W for $26 a box of 50 which included shipping. Personally I'd love to see them start getting notices from the IRS on the tax issue. They don't give a damn about us....why should we give a damn about them?[/quote]

I enjoyed the irony of this since the Obama administration likely used the IRS in the same manner.

[Guest nra37922]

I am now buying Defensive rounds only and not plinking ammo and usually not more than a box. 

[itchytriggerfinger]

Why? To replace what I shoot. Do I buy inflated prices no, but if I wanted to what business is it of anyone else?

Someone should start a Concealed vs Open Carry or Property rights vs 2nd amendment thread. We haven't beat those horses enough yet either.

 

Amen

[Guest 556or762]

Well I'm glad my rant didn't go unnoticed and I see we have both sides of the coin here but as has been stated above......purchasing all the ammo as soon as it hits the shelf for resale at 200% price creates a false market. Therefore if you purchase ammo from someone that does this you are the cause of the supposed ammo shortage. I say supposed because all info points to the same if not a higher level of supply now than before however it is purchased for resale before you ever see it. So in closing if you decide to pay these prices you give them a reason to continue and you have no one to blame for the higher pricing but yourself and everyone that is waiting for the ammo to get back on the shelves well they can blame you for being an idiot too!

[LCPfraTN]

Like all price "bubbles" this will eventually run its course and a lot of the "profiteers" or hoarders that have been willing to pay grossly inflated prices will likely get stuck with some high priced ammo that they take a loss on or regret purchasing. That is also part of the free market. Barring any further dumbass politicians' artificial stimulus, I think the tide is starting to turn and the ammo market will probably settle down somewhat by the end of the year.

 

I haven't bought any ammo other than regular priced mil-surp stuff since last fall because I have decent supplies of ammo and reloading supplies. However, I haven't been shooting as much while I wait for the price craziness to subside. But, if I needed ammo and had to pay current prices, I'd do that to insure that I had some supply on hand. I had to pay the piper for the AK-47 that I bought in December because I had farted around trying to decide what I wanted to buy and where to get the best price for over a year. In the end, I bought one for about $300 over what I could have paid a month earlier because I didn't want to take the chance that I might not ever be able to purchase one if I waited any longer. I also paid a little more boot in trade to get a Mini-14 from a TGO member, but he had the currency that was worth more at the time than what I had in trade. Again, if I had waited, the purchase could have been made illegal by a law change, and I wasn't willing to take that chance. While my purchases of so-called "assault weapons" aren't completely analogous to the ammo price situation, some of the same free market forces are at work within the ammo market. If you don't need ammo, don't buy it. If you do need ammo, I wouldn't buy more than you need for a small supply or to use immediately, otherwise you may be stuck with high priced ammo...or maybe that is just wishful thinking on my part. :)   

[Guest ThePunisher]

I'm seeing the inflated prices listed on .223/.556 and .308 ammo at PSA are not selling out as fast now. Prices at double what they were before the panic is pure stupidity and greedy. I think people are actually slowing down on these inflated purchases.

[crossfire]

Where is all the ammo? Well here is a good place to start. Go to Gun Broker and do a search on ammo then bring up pistol ammo. You will find 132 pages of pistol ammo at 50 listings per page. Do the same with rifle ammo and you will find 229 pages of 50 listings per page. That's 6,600 listing for pistol and 11,450 listings for rifle a total of 18,050 listings and that's just GB. If you have some time just total up 9mm for sale on one page them times that by the # of pages and that should give you a idea of how many round of 9mm are for sale on just GB. The good news is there are a lot of listings with no bids. The bad news is there is still a lot of stupid buyers out there still buying. 

Its not just the WM, AS, & SW resellers posting, its most of your local gun shops selling on GB and other sites, and not putting the ammo on their shelves. Those ads for case lots are not coming from the WM resellers, they are coming from your local shops. Just my :2cents:

[East_TN_Patriot]

What does it really matter?  I buy ammo from local gun stores and online but if someone want's to buy ammo from another person and is willing to pay the price why care?

It's a willing seller and a willing buyer - isn't that what the free market is supposed to be about?  :shrug:

Certainly, and it's also part of the free market for consumers to call out individuals who are engaging in practices that are deemed inappropriate or unfair.  If enough consumers are able to collectively change the marketplace through their protests, that is the free market at work.  My hope is that these sellers will eventually end up eating a big loss on all of the ammo they've stockpiled as the market corrects itself.  

 

In addition to this, people need to stop panic buying.  It's such a problem that I even have a buddy who doesn't own a .22 firearm any longer (he only shoots high-dollar big bore stuff), but is trying to gather up 5,000-10,000 rounds "just in case."  When I do find ammo, I get only what I know I'll reasonably need and leave some for others, but I know that most likely some jackwad will come in, buy all of it up, and sell it at the gun show for 2-3 times the original cost.  

[Ted S.]

I am a huge proponent of Free-Market Capitalism. I am also a huge proponent of Ethics.

 

My :2cents:  on Scalping common goods (or as some incorrectly called price-gouging):

 

(Please do not read this unless you understand that this post is NOT directed at anyone, and the intention is purely to freely express my censored opinion in this subject)

 

What value have Scalpers added to the ammunition that justifies reselling it to others at an inflated price? Besides getting first in line and not intending to use it....

 

I personally don't like the feeling I get when people justify screwing...er....scalping other people over with the words 'but it's the free market'. Seems like this is a common defense I see either on the internet or on tv when people openly justify scalping. Makes me sick to my stomach that I praise such a system on a daily basis.

 

There is nothing ethical about taking advantage of others; scalping practices such as reselling ammo as well as other common good that are difficult to aquire drives the resentment many people have for capitalism. This makes it very hard for people to promote free market ideas. Why would anyone who truely loves the free market engage in practices that would deter people from supporting such a great system? ...other than to make a quick and short personal gain at the expence of others...

 

I love capitalism to death. I hate when people justify unethical behavior by hiding behind 'the free market'. :usa:

 

Also, I strongly apologize if this comes off as a rant...... :stalk:

[Dustbuster]

The Walmart ammo thugs don't make it easy by any means. I remember when I had folks ripping on my ass cause I had a sr 1911 for sale at 799 and had my ad yanked for "overpriced" on arms list. I think the hoarding and gouging syndrome isn't fair to anyone but the sellers ,but heck lets see who starts making black rifles that fire 7mm ....and 270 and 30-06 <efg>

[StPatrick]

Well I'm glad my rant didn't go unnoticed and I see we have both sides of the coin here but as has been stated above......purchasing all the ammo as soon as it hits the shelf for resale at 200% price creates a false market. Therefore if you purchase ammo from someone that does this you are the cause of the supposed ammo shortage. I say supposed because all info points to the same if not a higher level of supply now than before however it is purchased for resale before you ever see it. So in closing if you decide to pay these prices you give them a reason to continue and you have no one to blame for the higher pricing but yourself and everyone that is waiting for the ammo to get back on the shelves well they can blame you for being an idiot too!

 

The only thing I'd add to the conversation is that the "profiteers", as you term them, are not the cause of the current problem.  They are simply taking advantage of the market distortion created by federal and state governments, where those two groups have heaped an enormous amount of uncertainty into what was a fairly stable commodity pre-Newtown, Senate action, NY SAFE Act, et al.  Anything, any object or service, is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay, no matter how you or I feel about whether the transaction, or multitude of transactions, help or hurt us.  The market for ammunition will remain ridiculous until either the people willing to pay premium prices for ammo run out of money or the market distortion created by national and state government is removed.  Purchase limits at the retail level can help alleviate the symptoms of the ammo shortage problem, but until the root cause of the market distortion - government threat of action - is removed, the uncertainty will remain, and prices will stay high.  Right now, those who can get ammo are selling at a premium to those who cannot because those who cannot are willing to pay extra for a box today v. a box tomorrow at a lower price since there is no guarantee that the lower priced rounds will become available tomorrow.  Remove the artificial market distortion created by those in government, and prices will behave as they used to, or close, as there will cease to be a resellers' market for a commodity you can get from any normal retailer.

[RobertNashville]

I am a huge proponent of Free-Market Capitalism. I am also a huge proponent of Ethics.

 

My :2cents:  on Scalping common goods (or as some incorrectly called price-gouging):

 

(Please do not read this unless you understand that this post is NOT directed at anyone, and the intention is purely to freely express my censored opinion in this subject)

 

What value have Scalpers added to the ammunition that justifies reselling it to others at an inflated price? Besides getting first in line and not intending to use it....

 

I personally don't like the feeling I get when people justify screwing...er....scalping other people over with the words 'but it's the free market'. Seems like this is a common defense I see either on the internet or on tv when people openly justify scalping. Makes me sick to my stomach that I praise such a system on a daily basis.

 

There is nothing ethical about taking advantage of others; scalping practices such as reselling ammo as well as other common good that are difficult to aquire drives the resentment many people have for capitalism. This makes it very hard for people to promote free market ideas. Why would anyone who truely loves the free market engage in practices that would deter people from supporting such a great system? ...other than to make a quick and short personal gain at the expence of others...

 

I love capitalism to death. I hate when people justify unethical behavior by hiding behind 'the free market'. :usa:

 

Also, I strongly apologize if this comes off as a rant...... :stalk:

I say again, if you have a willing seller and a willing buyer and they are not doing anything illegal then I really don't care...maybe it's not "fair" or "ethical" but so what???  There are lot's of things in life that aren't fair and almost everything violates someone's personal ethics sooner or later.  :shrug:

 

Yes, as ETP said, it's also part of the free market that people can complain, I don't see that doing all that much good but sure, if people want to get upset and try to convince others not to participate in the panic buying that's fine.

 

Frankly, these "scalpers" as you call them are performing a service...I don't have time to run to Wallyworld every hour or get people to do it for me to buy ammo when they have it...it's not worth my time to go through those gyrations. However, if someone does have the time to do that and I wan't or need the ammo they have then as I see it they have performed a service for me or to use your words, added value to the product.

 

Thankfully, I've had enough ammo that it's not been an issue for me and I'm as eager for anyone here for ammo to be in good supply and the prices to return to a more normal level. However, if I needed it/wanted it I'd be buying it and if my doing so meant that you felt I was "screwing you" buy buying what I wanted at a price I can afford and am willing to pay...I could live with that.

[Guest glklvr]

I see a big difference in free market and what's going on with ammo IMO. It's pure greed and giving everyone that enjoys the shooting sports the finger.  It's the fact that the AH scalpers are buying up the ammo at normal prices from normal retailers by circumventing the rules and limits established by retailers trying to supply the general public and being fair with the supply. They're selfishly jerking it right out of circulation before normal buyers can buy at normal prices which sustains the shortage for their benefit. Then they mark it up 200% yet they don't pay taxes on the 200% profit which is further crapping on everyone including the honest taxpayer and the normal shooters that buy ammo. I don't buy from the scalpers. They can KMA.  I've been lucky I guess and have procured enough online and just lucked up on what I've needed and am pretty good now.  The last I bought was from Palmetto State Armory where I bought 40S&W for $26 a box of 50 which included shipping. Personally I'd love to see them start getting notices from the IRS on the tax issue.  They don't give a damn about us....why should we give a damn about them?

 

Hate to break it to you, but there are about 100 times more people interested in buying ammunition now than in October 2012.

 

Supply and demand, the prices WILL go up. Ironically, becuase Walmart, has NOT raised their prices, this has created a vacuum for a middleman to make money. If Walmart had raised their prices to acceptable market prices, there would be no incentive for people to flip it.

 

So yeah, its not a corrected market, but not in the way you think.

[Ted S.]

Sorry, I didn't realize that taking advantage of others is ethical to some people. :tinfoil:

[Hershmeister]

"Scalpers" actually perform a valuable service. It may not seem that way, but in a market where demand outstrips supply, they ensure that the customer who has to have the product the "most" and is willing and able to pay for it can get it.

Without the scalper and assuming stores kept prices at prior levels, only the first few customers would be able to purchase products for themselves.

The scalper creates the opportunity for a secondary market accessible to more people. Note I did not say more affordable. Just more accessible.

Now one argument that has been made here is that it is the scalper who is creating the supply problem. But that is not the case at all, because if one were to believe that you would also have to believe there isn't a demand problem either.

This is basic micro economics.

That all being said, I totally understand the frustration of not being able to find the thing we want at the prices they "should be at, but there are always substitutes. Shoot cheaper calibers reload, enjoy a different hobby while you wait for things to cool down, etc.

The market will correct itself. It always does. God bless the invisible hand.

[JAB]

The only thing I'd add to the conversation is that the "profiteers", as you term them, are not the cause of the current problem.  They are simply taking advantage of the market distortion created by federal and state governments, where those two groups have heaped an enormous amount of uncertainty into what was a fairly stable commodity pre-Newtown, Senate action, NY SAFE Act, et al.  Anything, any object or service, is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay, no matter how you or I feel about whether the transaction, or multitude of transactions, help or hurt us.  The market for ammunition will remain ridiculous until either the people willing to pay premium prices for ammo run out of money or the market distortion created by national and state government is removed.  Purchase limits at the retail level can help alleviate the symptoms of the ammo shortage problem, but until the root cause of the market distortion - government threat of action - is removed, the uncertainty will remain, and prices will stay high.  Right now, those who can get ammo are selling at a premium to those who cannot because those who cannot are willing to pay extra for a box today v. a box tomorrow at a lower price since there is no guarantee that the lower priced rounds will become available tomorrow.  Remove the artificial market distortion created by those in government, and prices will behave as they used to, or close, as there will cease to be a resellers' market for a commodity you can get from any normal retailer.

 

In our state, TN, the state government has done NOTHING to indicate that there is any sort of government threat to gun/ammo ownership.  Further, the attempts to pass new laws at the Federal level have failed, at least for now - although there is a chance that such efforts will be revived and perhaps sooner than we think.  Also, I haven't heard of any serious attempt to do anything that would impact a person't ability to purchase .22LR ammo, 9mm ammo, revolver ammo and so on.  So, at this time, there is NO reason, in this state, for any sort of 'market distortion' created by government entities because - at this, specific time - the government hasn't done and isn't doing anything.  I have no more trust for the government - especially the current administration - than anyone else but c'mon, the whole 'you better buy this 500 round box of .22LR ammo for $200 now because the government is going to make it so you can't buy any, at all," nonsense is a bunch of BS, a total fabrication.

 

Therefore, there is NO, valid reason the ammo shelves at gun stores, sporting goods stores and Walmart locations in this part of the country should be empty.  They are empty because 1. a few people are buying up all the ammo in order to resell it at artificially inflated prices and 2. some folks - probably those same profiteers - are perpetuating the MYTH that any minute now new government regulations will go into effect - and they are doing so in order to use the government boogie man to justify the ridiculous prices of their falsely inflated market, thereby scaring some folks into buying every round they see, regardless of how ridiculous the price.

Edited May 15, 2013 by JAB