why are you still buying ammo?

[Buccaneer]

Christ boys. If I believe I need ammo for whatever reason and I have the available funds I'll buy it at whatever price I deem reasonable. You can take all your noble assertions about price gougers and hoarders and shove them up your a$$. 

[jbravo]

I know I haven't been a member of this site long enough that anyone here really cares what I think, but I'm going to give my opinion anyway. I just purchased a 9mm handgun in Feb. I currently have around 650 rounds of plinking ammo and about 150 rounds of self defense ammo (more than I'll probably ever use for self defense, hopefully)  and have shot up several hundred rounds at the range. All of this has been purchased since Feb.. For the practice rounds I have not paid more than $22 for a box of 50. It has been out there. It's a little higher than I like but not unreasonable. I absolutely refuse to pay any more than that and think anyone who buys the over priced ammo from resellers are just idiots. But just because I think its stupid doesn't mean that they should not be able to do it or that someone doesn't have a right to sell it for extremely outrageous price. I do, however have a problem with the scalpers that take all their relatives and friends with them to Walmart and buy up all the ammo on a regular basis. I also have a problem with Walmart when they always put out the ammo on the same days at the same times. It just feeds the scalpers and makes it harder for the regular customer to be able to purchase ammo. I don't even stop to check at Walmarts anymore because I know there won't be anything there anyway. All I know is that this argument needs to end. It is solving nothing and just causing bad feelings. Just my 2 cents, like it or not. I'm not going to argue either side of the issue.

[RobertNashville]

As I seem to recall, WalMart (and other licensed dealers) pay a little something called taxes on the money they get from selling merchandise. So these free market economy resellers need to be paying taxes as well. I am not sure if they are or aren't but I have my opinions on it. SO whenever anyone sees the need to buy from someone reselling at a scalper price, be sure and get their name and address to pass along to the IRS. Scalping is bad enough but cheating on taxes is unacceptable.

If you are talking about sales taxes, Walmarrt doesn't pay sales taxes; no retailer does.  Every retailer's customers, including Walmart's customers, pay the sale taxes; retailers are just the state's unpaid collection agency.

 

In other words these "scalpers" as they have been called, have already paid the sales taxes when the bought the ammo.

 

If you want to make an argument that additional taxes are owed on the difference between what the scalper paid vs what they sell it for it I'm not sure I'd disagree but any additional taxes would actually be owed by the people buying the ammo from the scalpers and it would be up to those people to self-report and pay (just as it's up to TN residents to self-report and pay taxes on their online purchases when the seller doesn't collect  from them at the point of sale as I'm sure we all do ;) ).

 

If you are talking about federal income tax; that's a whole other issue but before the pot starts calling the kettle black it might be worth taking the time for the pot o take a good long look in the mirror because anytime anyone sells something for more than they paid for it; whether it's a firearm or gear through TGO or a garage sale or anything else, they should be claiming that "profit" as income and paying income taxes on it. Now, anyone who is doing that; feel free to throw stones...anyone who isn't...

Edited May 24, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Guest JeffreyD]

If you are talking about sales taxes, Walmarrt doesn't pay sales taxes; no retailer does.  Every retailer's customers, including Walmart's customers, pay the sale taxes; retailers are just the state's unpaid collection agency.

 

In other words these "scalpers" as they have been called, have already paid the sales taxes when the bought the ammo.

 

If you want to make an argument that additional taxes are owed on the difference between what the scalper paid vs what they sell it for it I'm not sure I'd disagree but any additional taxes would actually be owed by the people buying the ammo from the scalpers and it would be up to those people to self-report and pay (just as it's up to TN residents to self-report and pay taxes on their online purchases when the seller doesn't collect  from them at the point of sale as I'm sure we all do ;) ).

 

If you are talking about federal income tax; that's a whole other issue but before the pot starts calling the kettle black it might be worth taking the time for the pot o take a good long look in the mirror because anytime anyone sells something for more than they paid for it; whether it's a firearm or gear through TGO or a garage sale or anything else, they should be claiming that "profit" as income and paying income taxes on it. Now, anyone who is doing that; feel free to throw stones...anyone who isn't...

You are right that the consumer pays the taxes that are collected by the seller and then paid to the state by the seller. So when a reseller chargers you, they are responsible for collecting and passing the taxes to the state. Many years ago I had a store. I paid a tax on merchandise I purchased from a distributor and collected taxes on every sale from the consumer. Those taxes were paid monthly to the state. I paid every dime of tax that I owed. So that combined with the fact I don't personally sell anything and have never had a yard sale or garage sale, I guess I can cast a few stones.

[LenoirGunner]

What does it really matter?  I buy ammo from local gun stores and online but if someone want's to buy ammo from another person and is willing to pay the price why care?

It's a willing seller and a willing buyer - isn't that what the free market is supposed to be about?  :shrug:

It is not a free market when there is people choking the supply to massively inflate the prices. Free trade is not happening. Instead a monopoly is occurring at that point. Which last time I checked we do not allow. :foot:

[TMF]

Thing is, I have enough cash to clean every Walmart and gunshop in my county of their ammo stock. If I was so dedicated it'd be interesting to buy it all up and only sell to folks who weren't douchebags (up to me to make that determination, of course). I wonder how many "free market" folks would believe such a market was actually free if I held all the ammo in their area. What folks fail to realize is that the panic created the demand, which could be easily met by retailers, but opportunists are buying up stock from the retailers in order to profit from the demand. That creates the artificial cost of ammo. .22lr doesn't cost 50 bucks a brick. Folks can still buy it for a normal price if they have the ability to stand in line at Walmart at 7am each morning. Most folks can't do that, so they are at the mercy of a handful of douchebags who would do well to suck-start their carry piece.

[RobertNashville]

You are right that the consumer pays the taxes that are collected by the seller and then paid to the state by the seller. So when a reseller chargers you, they are responsible for collecting and passing the taxes to the state. Many years ago I had a store. I paid a tax on merchandise I purchased from a distributor and collected taxes on every sale from the consumer. Those taxes were paid monthly to the state. I paid every dime of tax that I owed. So that combined with the fact I don't personally sell anything and have never had a yard sale or garage sale, I guess I can cast a few stones.

So what?  Have you ever bought or sold anything from/to anyone in a private transaction? Do you think there was sales tax owed and if so, was it paid?

 

Have you ever purchased anything from an internet retailer who doesn't collect TN sales tax and if so, did you self report and pay the taxes?

 

Are you really that concerned about "taxes" or are you just pissed off that you can't buy ammo at the price you want?

[RobertNashville]

If someone can sell me the ammo I want at a price I'm willing to pay I don't see the problem...it really isn't any of my damn business what they paid for it. That IS the free market and while the free market can suck for some for short periods it WILL correct itself and I don't see the point of going on the internet to complain about a handful of alleged "scalpers" just because that complainer(s) doesn't like the price of ammo or that he can't walk into Wallyworld anytime he likes and buy right now.
 
I also highly doubt that these scammers are having any measurable impact on the price or availability of ammo and until someone can show me real figures I'll continue to disregard assertions to the contrary.
 
I haven't had any significant problem buying ammo since about February; I just purchased a few hundred rounds of 22LR online just a few days ago; it wasn't as cheep as it used to be but it wasn't even remotely close to $50 a brick either....it makes me wonder just why people are getting their panties in a bunch.

[RobertNashville]

It is not a free market when there is people choking the supply to massively inflate the prices. Free trade is not happening. Instead a monopoly is occurring at that point. Which last time I checked we do not allow. :foot:

Do you have legitimate figures to back up your assertions that there these scalpers constitute a monopoly?  Unless you do, an assertion is just like an opinion. and just as valuable when there is no data to back up the assertion.

 

If there is a monopoly then why was I able, just a few days ago, to buy a few hundred rounds of 22lr without going to Wallyworld and without buying from a scalper and not at a "massively inflated price"???

 

Sure...people are pissed that they can't buy 22lr for $0.02/round right now...I get it...that doesn't constitute a "monopoly" and even if it did, whining about on the internet isn't going to change anything that I can think of.

Edited May 25, 2013 by RobertNashville

[tnhawk]

I don't see a problem.  If you want/need something, you pay the price necessary to obtain it. 

 

I'd like a new Ford truck for about $3500.  There isn't a dealer that will sell one at that price, are they all scalpers?

[TMF]

I don't see a problem. If you want/need something, you pay the price necessary to obtain it.

I'd like a new Ford truck for about $3500. There isn't a dealer that will sell one at that price, are they all scalpers?

Jesus this isn't even the same ballpark. We're not talking about a business, we're talking about people making a (illegal) business out of cleaning the retailer out of a product in order to create an artificial shortage and drive up the cost for people too stupid to wait and keeping folks like me from getting the product from the distributor.

[Hershmeister]

Thing is, I have enough cash to clean every Walmart and gunshop in my county of their ammo stock. If I was so dedicated it'd be interesting to buy it all up and only sell to folks who weren't douchebags (up to me to make that determination, of course). I wonder how many "free market" folks would believe such a market was actually free if I held all the ammo in their area. What folks fail to realize is that the panic created the demand, which could be easily met by retailers, but opportunists are buying up stock from the retailers in order to profit from the demand. That creates the artificial cost of ammo. .22lr doesn't cost 50 bucks a brick. Folks can still buy it for a normal price if they have the ability to stand in line at Walmart at 7am each morning. Most folks can't do that, so they are at the mercy of a handful of douchebags who would do well to suck-start their carry piece.

You do realize there are other places to buy ammo than wal Mart? To create a monopoly you'd have to buy out every gun store, big box retailer and Internet store.

The notion that a few profiteers grabbing up wal mart ammo is the cause of the shortage doesn't hold water as an argument other than to say that it causes a shortage at that specific wal mart.

[LenoirGunner]

Do you have legitimate figures to back up your assertions that there these scalpers constitute a monopoly?  Unless you do, an assertion is just like an opinion. and just as valuable when there is no data to back up the assertion.

 

If there is a monopoly then why was I able, just a few days ago, to buy a few hundred rounds of 22lr without going to Wallyworld and without buying from a scalper and not at a "massively inflated price"???

 

Sure...people are pissed that they can't buy 22lr for $0.02/round right now...I get it...that doesn't constitute a "monopoly" and even if it did, whining about on the internet isn't going to change anything that I can think of.

Well when a brick of .22lr has gone from $20 to $75 in 2 months that is a pretty good indicator. People have a right to stand up for flat out price gouging, and people flooding the market with a false price increase. Those of us who have jobs don't have the luxury of sitting on the stores everyday to buy up all the ammo like these guys do. Evidently they are making enough in profit to live off of. While no it is not a corporate monopoly.

Definition of monopoly- The exclusive possession or control of the supply or trade in a commodity or service.

Hmm sounds like one to me. Fits the definition. So it is one.

[TMF]

You do realize there are other places to buy ammo than wal Mart? To create a monopoly you'd have to buy out every gun store, big box retailer and Internet store.



The notion that a few profiteers grabbing up wal mart ammo is the cause of the shortage doesn't hold water as an argument other than to say that it causes a shortage at that specific wal mart.

Rog, but the few ammo outlets left that are selling for a decent price are cleaned out too. I guess it'll be moot here in the near future since things will be getting back to normal soon, but for right now I can't go anywhere in town and get the ammo I want, yet there is more ammo advertised on Armslist than ever EVER before.... you don't at all find that odd?

[RobertNashville]

Well when a brick of .22lr has gone from $20 to $75 in 2 months that is a pretty good indicator. People have a right to stand up for flat out price gouging, and people flooding the market with a false price increase. Those of us who have jobs don't have the luxury of sitting on the stores everyday to buy up all the ammo like these guys do. Evidently they are making enough in profit to live off of. While no it is not a corporate monopoly.

Definition of monopoly- The exclusive possession or control of the supply or trade in a commodity or service.

Hmm sounds like one to me. Fits the definition. So it is one.

Sorry...the "good indicator" is a long way from real evidence of a monopoly...prove to me that 22LR or any other ammo is in short supply ONLY because of Wallyworld scalpers who are in collusion with each other and I'll listen; otherwise it's just whining and I've misplaced my miniature violin.

 

More to the point, just what do you folks whining about this expect to be done?

 

Do you really think that posting on TGO is going to solve the problem?

 

Most monopolies, if indeed this really were one, are broken up and/or are controlled by, guess who...the federal government....do you want Obummer to step in and take charge???  :screwy:

[TripleDigitRide]

I was at Wal-Mart yesterday morning having my oil changed. To kill some time, I decided to walk over to the sporting goods section. It was after 7:30 a.m., so I figured the ammo crowd would have already come and gone. There were a couple fellas hanging around, shootin' the breeze with the employee, so I joined in.

About 15-20 minutes later, here comes the ammo cart. There was a good assortment of .22LR, .223, .380, .45, and maybe a few more. After the 3 or 4 people got their ammo, the employee said that based on his 10+ years experience working at Wal-Mart, if everyone went back to buying ammo at the rate they were before things went crazy, there would be plenty of ammo to go around. He said the same guys who would come in once a week or once a month and buy a box or two are now coming in multiple times a week and buying the 3 box limit, every chance they get.

[Guest JeffreyD]

So what?  Have you ever bought or sold anything from/to anyone in a private transaction? Do you think there was sales tax owed and if so, was it paid?

 

Have you ever purchased anything from an internet retailer who doesn't collect TN sales tax and if so, did you self report and pay the taxes?

 

Are you really that concerned about "taxes" or are you just pissed off that you can't buy ammo at the price you want?

Just using your own words that said I was allowed to cast stones. Seems you have a problem ducking em. To answer your question, yes I have always paid the taxes I have owed my government. No I haven't bought from a private seller with the exception of a vehicle and I pay the taxes when I title said vehicle.

 

As for being pissed off that I can't buy ammo at the price I want, I'm not pissed. You are saying a free market economy is a cornerstone of America. Paying taxes is too.  Maybe if everyone paid what they legally owed this country wouldn't be as deep in debt.But I digress.I don't care what you buy or sell something for, That is your business. Take all of your cash, wipe your ass with it and flush it down the toilet for all I care. It's your money and you earned it and I hope you paid your taxes on it. But, it is my right (as well as the right of others) to have the opinion (and state it) that continuing to buy ammo from a reseller that inflates the price will continue to keep the price up and the supply low. 

 

I have stated my opinion and it is different from yours on the subject. You won't convince me of your side and I won't even try to convince you of mine. However we all have a right to have and state our opinions on the subject. What I don't understand is why do you care what someone that doesn't agree with you thinks? This isn't a subject that can be proven by data. SInce scalpers don't report sales figures and pay taxes, we have no idea how many rounds are being resold and at what price point above or below MSRP. Therefore these are opinions. This is an internet forum where people get to pass along their opinions. Take em or leave em.

 

Have a nice day.

[Hershmeister]

You do realize there are other places to buy ammo than wal Mart? To create a monopoly you'd have to buy out every gun store, big box retailer and Internet store.







The notion that a few profiteers grabbing up wal mart ammo is the cause of the shortage doesn't hold water as an argument other than to say that it causes a shortage at that specific wal mart.

Rog, but the few ammo outlets left that are selling for a decent price are cleaned out too. I guess it'll be moot here in the near future since things will be getting back to normal soon, but for right now I can't go anywhere in town and get the ammo I want, yet there is more ammo advertised on Armslist than ever EVER before.... you don't at all find that odd?

This would be a strong indicator of an overpriced market and I would expect prices to fall pretty quickly and also for more suppliers to enter the market hoping to take advantage of the higher prices.

One important factor to consider is that there are a large number of people who are regular shooters who used to buy as they need and are now building a reserve stockpile. This is creating a high temporary demand of likely double or even more than usual and will only stop when people feel they have a decent reserve. I predict the 22 supply situation will continue through at least the rest of this year.

[RobertNashville]

Just using your own words that said I was allowed to cast stones. Seems you have a problem ducking em. To answer your question, yes I have always paid the taxes I have owed my government. No I haven't bought from a private seller with the exception of a vehicle and I pay the taxes when I title said vehicle.

 

As for being pissed off that I can't buy ammo at the price I want, I'm not pissed. You are saying a free market economy is a cornerstone of America. Paying taxes is too.  Maybe if everyone paid what they legally owed this country wouldn't be as deep in debt.But I digress.I don't care what you buy or sell something for, That is your business. Take all of your cash, wipe your ass with it and flush it down the toilet for all I care. It's your money and you earned it and I hope you paid your taxes on it. But, it is my right (as well as the right of others) to have the opinion (and state it) that continuing to buy ammo from a reseller that inflates the price will continue to keep the price up and the supply low. 

 

I have stated my opinion and it is different from yours on the subject. You won't convince me of your side and I won't even try to convince you of mine. However we all have a right to have and state our opinions on the subject. What I don't understand is why do you care what someone that doesn't agree with you thinks? This isn't a subject that can be proven by data. SInce scalpers don't report sales figures and pay taxes, we have no idea how many rounds are being resold and at what price point above or below MSRP. Therefore these are opinions. This is an internet forum where people get to pass along their opinions. Take em or leave em.

 

Have a nice day.

Wow...I find it pretty incredible that in this day and age you or anyone else has never bought anything from a private seller (other then the car you mention) where the seller didn't collect sales taxes or hasn't bought something off the internet from a legitimate business retailer who also, because they didn't have physical presence in TN, didn't collect sales taxes and yet you self-reported and paid the tax.  If you've never bought  anything in that way then you are pretty unusual...if I"m misunderstanding you and you do buy in those ways but have always self-reported then you must be some kind of a saint.

 

I never said you can't have your opinion or post your opinion; I just don't get what people who are upset about this expect to happen?

 

I just bought a bunch of 22LR form Able Ammo...I guess I'm part of the problem because I'm not waiting around for 22LR to go back to $0.03/round (assuming it ever does)...I was really upset when gold was at $900/oz because there was a time I could have bought it for $300/oz...I'm still waiting for it to come back down to $300 so that I don't contribute to all the scalping going on in the gold industry. ;)

[Guest JeffreyD]

Wow...I find it pretty incredible that in this day and age you or anyone else has never bought anything from a private seller (other then the car you mention) where the seller didn't collect sales taxes or hasn't bought something off the internet from a legitimate business retailer who also, because they didn't have physical presence in TN, didn't collect sales taxes and yet you self-reported and paid the tax.  If you've never bought  anything in that way then you are pretty unusual...if I"m misunderstanding you and you do buy in those ways but have always self-reported then you must be some kind of a saint.

 

I never said you can't have your opinion or post your opinion; I just don't get what people who are upset about this expect to happen?

 

I just bought a bunch of 22LR form Able Ammo...I guess I'm part of the problem because I'm not waiting around for 22LR to go back to $0.03/round (assuming it ever does)...I was really upset when gold was at $900/oz because there was a time I could have bought it for $300/oz...I'm still waiting for it to come back down to $300 so that I don't contribute to all the scalping going on in the gold industry. ;)

I just don't buy off the internet very much and the couple of places I have bought from collect the TN taxes at the time of my purchase. I have made it a habit of buying very few things that are new and I can return them if there is a problem. I like being able to put my hands on a product and pick out the one I want. I come from a family that has one credit card and has paid it off every month for the last 30 years and never paid a dime of interest. Plus, since I don't sell anything except the rare vehicle (I usually trade in instead of selling), I have generally held the opinion there must be something wrong with it and that is why it is for sale. If it is in good shape and working why would someone want to get rid of it? Again, just my opinion. 

 

People really don't expect anything to happen. They are just frustrated at what they see happening. How many people bitch about gas prices going up yesterday because it is a travel weekend and they raise prices due to expected demand. If you need it and have to pay for it you do. If you want it and want to pay for it you do... if not, you don't. They know bitching won't make prices drop. 

 

I would love to see penny ammo, nickle gas and a quality car for under $7000. We all know it won't happen. The price of a new car 40 years ago has gone up about 7 times while salaries have barely doubled for most workers. It is bad enough the economy has done this to everyone. Most people understand the MSRP and don't mind having to pay that because that is the set price. They get excited when a product they want is put on sale. But think of it from a 1st shift working man's point of view. He has to be at work at 7 AM and can't go stand in line at a WalMart for the ammo to go on sale at 7:10 AM. He has no chance to get the ammo at the MSRP. He can go online and see a lot of Out Of Stock notes at online shops. He can go to a LGS and pay a higher price (in my area most are at an extra 50% mark up over standard pricing pre Sandy Hook). He can see ads in his local paper for double the price. It gets frustrating.

 

People profiteering off of a situation is wrong and the only way to stop it is to not buy it. The government stepped in after 9/11 to stop the gas stations from gouging and I DON'T want Obama getting involved in ANYTHING that we can keep him out of. So the only thing the average working man can do is buy what he needs for the time being and not try and stockpile out of panic. I have at least one box of ammo for every weapon (only bought 4 boxes of ammo since Sandy Hook and all bought in the MSRP range give or take a dollar). I have changed my habits and don't go to the range as much since this all started. 

 

Well, time to get out and enjoy this Memorial Day weekend.

[tartanphantom]

This would be a strong indicator of an overpriced market and I would expect prices to fall pretty quickly and also for more suppliers to enter the market hoping to take advantage of the higher prices.

One important factor to consider is that there are a large number of people who are regular shooters who used to buy as they need and are now building a reserve stockpile. This is creating a high temporary demand of likely double or even more than usual and will only stop when people feel they have a decent reserve. I predict the 22 supply situation will continue through at least the rest of this year.

 

 

+1. People who didn't normally stockpile are now doing so. This is having a prolonged impact on overall availability.

[TMF]

+1. People who didn't normally stockpile are now doing so. This is having a prolonged impact on overall availability.

Sure that is part of it, but I don't see how folks don't find the fact that there is more ammo available through private sellers than EVER before even a little suspicious and wrong... At a cost several times more than available retail. Suspicious indeed. Edited May 25, 2013 by TMF

[tartanphantom]

Sure that is part of it, but I don't see how folks don't find the fact that there is more ammo available through private sellers than EVER before even a little suspicious and wrong... At a cost several times more than available retail. Suspicious indeed.

 

Of course. The stockpiling is just a one component in the overall situation. Seeing Walmart "exclusive packaged" Federal ammo at 3-4X the original price on Armslist is another. We all KNOW what they paid for it. The packaging is a dead giveaway.

Edited May 25, 2013 by tartanphantom

[jtmaze]

It must be dying down some. I was in Walmart s Jax yesterday shopping with wife about 4pm. There was a couple there buying 6 boxes of fed 45 acp and I noticed 2 more on the shelf so I got them. The girl checking out asked the manager with the key if they could buy that much and he said sure it was one of the perks of being married. I was happy to get the 100 rnds because I haven't been shooting my 1911(favorite shooter) due to my running short of ammo. Went home and shot about 30 with my cousins just for sport.

[RobertNashville]

Of course. The stockpiling is just a one component in the overall situation. Seeing Walmart "exclusive packaged" Federal ammo at 3-4X the original price on Armslist is another. We all KNOW what they paid for it. The packaging is a dead giveaway.

How many people are actually buying the stuff on Armslist?

You can still find ARs and SCARs on Armslist for incredibly inflated prices too; that doesn't necessarily mean people are buying them. ;)