why are you still buying ammo?

[JAB]

Amazing the number of gun owners who become out-of-the-closet socialists when supply and demand hits something THEY think should be cheaper.

 

Closet socialists?  Because it ticks us off when someone makes an unethical profit by INTERFERING with the normal supply and demand chain?  Yeah, okay.

[Hershmeister]

Amazing the number of gun owners who become out-of-the-closet socialists when supply and demand hits something THEY think should be cheaper.

Closet socialists? Because it ticks us off when someone makes an unethical profit by INTERFERING with the normal supply and demand chain? Yeah, okay.

How exactly does someone interfere with the demand curve? Inquiring minds want to know

[Hershmeister]

In a related story:

"State-controlled prices – prices that are set below market-clearing price – always result in shortages. The shortage problem will only get worse."


Venezuela hopes to wipe out toilet paper shortage by importing 50m rolls

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/16/venezuela-toilet-paper-shortage-50m

[Guest glklvr]

Closet socialists?  Because it ticks us off when someone makes an unethical profit by INTERFERING with the normal supply and demand chain?  Yeah, okay.

 

How are they interfering with the NORMAL (what you consider normal) supply & demand chain?

 

What do you think wholesalers do? Or any middleman, for that matter?

 

You act as though there is no increased demand. Demand is 100x what it was in the fall- and that's probably a low estimate. Supply has not increased to keep up with demand. Walmart, among others, has decided that they will not raise their prices to reflect this increased demand. Therefore, a vacuum is created that is filled by people who want to flip the ammo.

 

EVERYONE has choices. They can either wait for the trickles from Walmart, along with everyone else, or they can choose to pay a higher price and not have to wait. Obviously enough people are choosing the latter becuase if there weren't people buying it from flippers at higher prices, there wouldn't be the secondary market.

 

Just becuase you don't like the options doesn't make it illegal, immoral, unethical, etc.

 

Do you likewise think it's unethical for someone from Iowa to buy a bunch of $500 generators and go to a post-hurricane Florida and sell them for $1000?

[JAB]

Do you likewise think it's unethical for someone from Iowa to buy a bunch of $500 generators and go to a post-hurricane Florida and sell them for $1000?

 

A more apropos question would be, "Do you think it is unethical for someone in post-hurricane Florida to go to all the local, Florida retailers, buy up a bunch of $500 generators so that there are no $500 generators left for desperate locals to buy and then turn around sell these $500 generators for $1000," in which case, my answer would be, "Yes, that would be unethical."

 

The scalpers are interfering with the supply chain by creating an unnatural bottleneck (stripping local stores of ammo, thereby cutting down on the number of outlets for buying ammo which, in turn, eliminates competitive pricing from the equation - scalpers have all the available ammo so they do not have to engage in competitive pricing) and perpetuating the appearance of a shortage.  The perpetuated appearance of a shortage, in turn, perpetuates the buying panic which interferes with the normal demand side of the equation.  In so doing, while the scalpers may not be 100% responsible for the situation, they are certainly contributing to an interference with the ammo supply/demand situation getting back to more normal levels.

Edited May 16, 2013 by JAB

[Guest TN.Frank]

I've not bought ammo in quite a while because I generally handload what I want to shoot. Even before the price hikes it was still cheaper for me to load a box of 50 then to buy a box of factory stuff. Soon as primer prices come back down to something reasonable I'd like to pick up 2k or so and get a couple LBs of powder so I can keep loading. I'd also like to get the .365" 95gr Lee bullet mold when Midway gets em' back in stock on 6/7 so I can cast some bullets for my 9x18mm but as far as buying factory stuff, WHY??? when I can handload stuff that's just as good if not better.

[Guest glklvr]

A more apropos question would be, "Do you think it is unethical for someone in post-hurricane Florida to go to all the local, Florida retailers, buy up a bunch of $500 generators so that there are no $500 generators left for desperate locals to buy and then turn around sell these $500 generators for $1000," in which case, my answer would be, "Yes, that would be unethical."

 

The scalpers are interfering with the supply chain by creating an unnatural bottleneck (stripping local stores of ammo, thereby cutting down on the number of outlets for buying ammo which, in turn, eliminates competitive pricing from the equation - scalpers have all the available ammo so they do not have to engage in competitive pricing) and perpetuating the appearance of a shortage.  The perpetuated appearance of a shortage, in turn, perpetuates the buying panic which interferes with the normal demand side of the equation.  In so doing, while the scalpers may not be 100% responsible for the situation, they are certainly contributing to an interference with the ammo supply/demand situation getting back to more normal levels.

 

There is no "interfering in the supply chain" and "unnatural bottlenecking. " They do not exist in economics. You have the exact same opportunity to stand in line at Walmart as anyone esle.

[Ted S.]

Amazing the number of gun owners who become out-of-the-closet socialists when supply and demand hits something THEY think should be cheaper.

 

I have absolutely no problem paying the higher prices that I have been for ammo when I go to the store an find some, because ammo has been going up in price at the store.

 

I think these so caller 'out-of-the-closet-socialist' aren't attacking the free market; this conversation is more in the direction of personal ethics more than whether the free market gives someone the right to take advantage of others.

 

Here are the established facts: Demand has gone up. Supply cannot keep up with demand. Dealers have in turn been raising the price of ammo to reflect the increase in demand. Then there are scalpers buying up ammo to turn a quick profit. Because many scalpers are repeating their practices on a regular basis, we know that they have at least had an effect on demand. The true impact is unkown because there isn't sufficient data to make a conclusion, but there is at least some impact since this is such a common complaint.

 

Of course, when one looks into reseller sites and sees the amount of supply available there at inflated prices on a regular basis, it is easy to come to quick conclusions about their impact.

 

Many here are arguing that demand would not be so high if there weren't scalpers. Which is true because we know that people are out there scalping. But their impact to demand is questionable because none of us are going to research the issue because we have lives and no time to worry.

 

In this thread and other's, have posted examples where scalpers reqularly attempt to monopolize local supply with the intention of taking advantage of others. I personally believe it is unethical to intentionally take advantage of others.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Ted S.

[RobertNashville]

Feel guilty? I have already stated my issue with second/ third party sales right now, it needs no further clarification. I will point out I said "those" and should have said "some of those" I think you can find the spot and insert above.

No, I don't feel guilty at all because the only ammo I've sold in the past three years I sold for under what I paid and I bought it all before the panic buying set it.

 

Again, if you want to call people out (instead of making vague insinuations) then why don't you REALLY call them out...post the links to all the "scalpers" you believe are here (or do you just like to make unfounded accusations)?

Edited May 16, 2013 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

Amazing the number of gun owners who become out-of-the-closet socialists when supply and demand hits something THEY think should be cheaper.

Absolutely correct ^^^^

People, including most every TGO member, claims they want "freedom" until something that someone else does that is perfectly legal pisses them off then some of those same "freedom loving people" rush to the nearest computer and start throwing a pity-party.

[RobertNashville]

A more apropos question would be, "Do you think it is unethical for someone in post-hurricane Florida to go to all the local, Florida retailers, buy up a bunch of $500 generators so that there are no $500 generators left for desperate locals to buy and then turn around sell these $500 generators for $1000," in which case, my answer would be, "Yes, that would be unethical."

 

The scalpers are interfering with the supply chain by creating an unnatural bottleneck (stripping local stores of ammo, thereby cutting down on the number of outlets for buying ammo which, in turn, eliminates competitive pricing from the equation - scalpers have all the available ammo so they do not have to engage in competitive pricing) and perpetuating the appearance of a shortage.  The perpetuated appearance of a shortage, in turn, perpetuates the buying panic which interferes with the normal demand side of the equation.  In so doing, while the scalpers may not be 100% responsible for the situation, they are certainly contributing to an interference with the ammo supply/demand situation getting back to more normal levels.

What does "unethical" have to do with anything?  Your ethics are just that, YOUR ethics. 

 

I say people should have bought the generators BEFORE the damn hurricane hit and if they were too stupid or lazy do to that then the shame is on THEM.  If I were one of those lazy/stupid people then I'd probably be f*****g ecstatic that I could find a generator to buy at $1,000.

 

No on is interfering with anything...if the retailers who are trying to hold the line on prices decided to raise there prices to the levels people are apparently willing to pay that would put the "scalpers'" out of business but I'd bet you would then just be pissed of at Wallyworld for making that "unethical" profit.

 

DEMAND is outstripping supply - until than changes nothing else will; that's not the fault of so-called "scalpers".

[Guest glklvr]

Exactly right.

 

A flipper selling a brick of .22 for $60 is unethical but Walmart selling a brick of .22 for $60 is supply and demand.

[Ted S.]

Exactly right.

 

A flipper selling a brick of .22 for $60 is unethical but Walmart selling a brick of .22 for $60 is supply and demand.

 

Depends on what walmart is getting the ammo for from their dist. or from the manufacturer.

[RobertNashville]

Depends on what walmart is getting the ammo for from their dist. or from the manufacturer

No, doesn't depend on how much they paid for it...any retailer can sell the products they carry for any price they want that people will pay...they can sell it for 95% less than they paid for it or 95% more than they paid or give it away for free or they can stop carrying the product altogether because it isn't worth the hassle of dealing with all the people who complain about their "unethical" prices. ;)

[JAB]

I've not bought ammo in quite a while because I generally handload what I want to shoot. Even before the price hikes it was still cheaper for me to load a box of 50 then to buy a box of factory stuff. Soon as primer prices come back down to something reasonable I'd like to pick up 2k or so and get a couple LBs of powder so I can keep loading. I'd also like to get the .365" 95gr Lee bullet mold when Midway gets em' back in stock on 6/7 so I can cast some bullets for my 9x18mm but as far as buying factory stuff, WHY??? when I can handload stuff that's just as good if not better.

 

I only reload a couple of calibers but when supplies finally return to normal I would also like to build a 'buffer' of on hand supplies.  Being that I only reload for .38/.357 and .44, I am thinking that it would make more sense, for me, to hold off on casting my own for now and instead invest the money that I would be using to purchase casting equipment into purchasing ready-made bullets for reloading. 

 

I have gotten to the point where I like shooting my revolvers so much that I rarely shoot semiautos.  That being the case, I am probably better off just buying a box or two here and there for my semiautos rather than trying to fool with reloading for them.  Luckily, I had a few boxes of 9X18, .9X19 and .380 on hand before this nonsense all started.

Edited May 16, 2013 by JAB

[Ted S.]

Well, since we've established the legality of scalping several times, I sure hope they keep it legal by ensuring compliance with local, state and federal regulations on conducting business and providing services by ensuring they have any required state and local permits and licenses, as well as reporting their new found income when they file their taxes for this year. Such outstanding and industrous individuals as they are will surely follow all laws and the like.

 

Of course, this should only to those most enterprising scalpers out there doing the greatest service to the market since scalping is obviously such a scarce practice. :usa:

[Hershmeister]

Exactly right.

A flipper selling a brick of .22 for $60 is unethical but Walmart selling a brick of .22 for $60 is supply and demand.

Depends on what walmart is getting the ammo for from their dist. or from the manufacturer.

Their cost of goods is irrelevant.
The market clearing price is all that matters. You don't have to like it, and I will stress again that buyers of any good usually always have substitution options which they will shift towards when price becomes too high.

This hyper focus on wal Mart ignores the overall market of all retail stores, online suppliers and other entities as well as the power of substitution in leveling a market shortage out.

A great example would be the large number of people who have declared on this board and others that they have curtailed their shooting until prices return to prior levels. Those people are using the power of substitution


We all agree there is likely a good amount of hoarding going on in the market which essentially represents future demand pulled into today. The good news is that due to this you can expect demand to eventually drop below normal levels prior to rebounding. This in turn should cause prices to actually drop for a period of time to Pre-panic levels. The trick of course will be having the patience to ride the storm out.

[RobertNashville]

I'm probably going to start reloading too but not until things settle down and supplies can be had.

 

That said, I wonder if, with the problem of component availability, retailers are running good deals on equipment?  I would think that the equipment probably isn't moving well right now because of the lack of components (although I may be totally wrong about that). ;)

[Ted S.]

No, doesn't depend on how much they paid for it...any retailer can sell the products they carry for any price they want that people will pay...they can sell it for 95% less than they paid for it or 95% more than they paid or give it away for free or they can stop carrying the product altogether because it isn't worth the hassle of dealing with all the people who complain about their "unethical" prices. ;)

 

More power to them then if then can sell it for that rate. I'd really like to see the retailer caltch up with the scalper's pricing that way the market and profit magins stays competitive! At least that way the only loser is the manufacturer for not knowing the value of their ammo. :pleased:

[RobertNashville]

Well, since we've established the legality of scalping several times, I sure hope they keep it legal by ensuring compliance with local, state and federal regulations on conducting business and providing services by ensuring they have any required state and local permits and licenses, as well as reporting their new found income when they file their taxes for this year. Such outstanding and industrous individuals as they are will surely follow all laws and the like.

 

Of course, this should only to those most enterprising scalpers out there doing the greatest service to the market since scalping is obviously such a scarce practice. :usa:

Well I'm sure you and everyone else here who buys anything over the internet from retailers that don't collect TN sales taxes are declaring those purchases every year and paying their owed sales/use taxes to the state, correct???  ;)

Edited May 16, 2013 by RobertNashville

[TripleDigitRide]

How are the Titans going to do this year?

[RobertNashville]

How are the Titans going to do this year?

Poorly, most likely.

 

I actually lost interest in the Titans a while ago...everything I once admired about them has changed and I just really don't care how they do anymore...I think I watched parts of two games last year and that's it.

 

Also, I just can't stand all the scalpers trying to sell their tickets for twice what they are wroth...  ;)

Edited May 16, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Ted S.]

How are the Titans going to do this year?

 

I dunno, I don't watch baseball

 

Well I'm sure you and everyone else here who buys anything over the internet from retailers that don't collect TN sales taxes are declaring those purchases every year and paying their owed sales/use taxes to the state, correct???  ;)

 

I'd hope so. I'm just waiting for there site to take visa, because lump sums suck. :surrender:

[JAB]

That said, I wonder if, with the problem of component availability, retailers are running good deals on equipment?  I would think that the equipment probably isn't moving well right now because of the lack of components (although I may be totally wrong about that). ;)

 

Or is panic causing relative novices to shooting and/or reloading to run out and buy reloading equipment, thinking that reloading will solve all of their problems, before realizing that components to reload may be difficult to obtain?

 

Honestly, being relatively new to reloading, myself, the lack of reloading component availability is what has really surprised me this go-round.  I expected factory ammo supplies to become scarce and made sure to have at least some ammo on hand.  I also pretty well expected that primers - at least of certain, more popular types - would become difficult to find, at times (such as small pistol - I picked up 1k of those when I first saw the 'writing on the wall' and surmised that a shortage was on its way.)  I even expected to see supplies of 9mm, .40 S&W, .45acp bullets, as well as bullets for reloading other, popular calibers get scarce (but as I don't reload 9mm at this time and don't own a .40 or .45 I wasn't all that concerned about that.)  What I did not expect was for supplies for bullets I had assumed wouldn't be all that popular (like cast lead .44 Magnum bullets) to disappear from store shelves and have a several week long waiting list with online suppliers (although part of that is likely due to them devoting time to casting to fill orders for more 'popular' calibers.)

Edited May 16, 2013 by JAB

[RobertNashville]

More power to them then if then can sell it for that rate. I'd really like to see the retailer caltch up with the scalper's pricing that way the market and profit magins stays competitive! At least that way the only loser is the manufacturer for not knowing the value of their ammo. :pleased:

Yeah...I'm sure the manufacturer losing money would be a wonderful help to ending the current shortage of ammo. ;)