AR upper advice needed please!

[Handsome Rob]

Well, it seems that I am now the owner of the bottom half of an AR. Not really sure exactly how the hell it happened as I've never been a fan of the platform. Heck, my idea of a high capacity, quick shooting SD/HD tactical rifle has always been a lever action loaded up with .44s!

 

Anyhoo.......

 

I'm looking at uppers on Gunbroker right now & I think I know what I'm looking for, but I need assurances! 

I'm really thinking about a heavy barrel, free float handguard thingy, no open sights & no rails or other spiky bits. It'll be for targets, coyotes & fun shooting more than anything else.

 

Are there any significant advantages/disadvantages to a longer/shorter barrel? (I'm trying to decide between a 16 & a 24")

 

I know that a 1:7 twist will be more accurate with heavier bullets than a 1:9, but will it be more accurate enough for me to really notice a difference at 300yds? (I'm no precision shooter & 1" groups at 100 are the exception, not the rule!)

 

Are there any makes I really need to avoid? I'm looking at spending under $700 for the whole shebang & I've seen 2 uppers that I like the look of, but for all I know they could be utter poo.

(http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=341451156)

(http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=341383861)

 

Right now, I'm leaning towards the 16", but this is based purely on "That looks nice!" rather than anything scientific.

 

Being an EBR virgin I honestly don't know what anything is worth; the whole ammo/gungrab/hi-cap mag thing pretty much went over my head.

Would these 2 uppers seem like reasonable deals?

 

Thanks for allowing me to display my ignorance! :D

Edited May 12, 2013 by robtattoo

[Dolomite_supafly]

There is a reason why the RGuns uppers are still available.

 

A 9 twist is what you want. 9 twist will shoot anythign up to 77 grain bullets, including 40 grain varmint bullets. 7 twist will cause the jacket to seperate on anything under 50 grains. I know I have slung the jackets from 53 SMK's in a 7 twist barrel.

 

Too fast is worse for accuracy than just barely stable. Look at all the match shooters, in their 30 caliber guns they are using 17 and 18 twist barrels when most factory guns have a 10 or 11 twist. The original 5.56 had a 12 twist barrel and it was devastating but they went to 9 twist and performance began to suffer then they went to 7 twist and it became even worse. This is why we are hearing all the complaints from troops in the middle east.

 

You could probably build an upper cheaper than buying right now. I just did a quick search of parts and you can build one for a little over $500.

 

Another option is to give these people a call and get an idea of lead times:

http://www.model1sales.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=152

They have great prices and their uppers are decent quality. They are a real deal when you take into account the cost.

[R1100R]

Another option is a 1 in 8 twist. I have one with a wylde chamber. I picked it up at a good price from Palmetto State Armory if you keep you eyes open over there. This was way before the current craziness. I have owned a few uppers from PSA and they were all great. Rock river makes a nice varmit upper too. That being said after looking at the Model 1 site there are some decent prices.

Edited May 12, 2013 by R1100R

[Handsome Rob]

Thanks Dol! I'll give them a call tomorrow. Their prices seem really good :D

 

Any specifics as to the problems with RGuns? 

[mikegideon]

Regarding barrel length... a 24 gives you more velocity. If you're not going to push out past 300 yards, you probably don't need it.

[Handsome Rob]

Thanks Mike.

It looks like Model1 has a good selection of 20" barrels in stock, in various profiles. I'm guessing this could be a good compromise. 

[cj0e]

Thanks Dol! I'll give them a call tomorrow. Their prices seem really good :D

 

Any specifics as to the problems with RGuns? 

 

Dig around ARFCOM for more on RGuns.

 

Personally, I've only had one dealing with them. Ordered an "in stock" upper, that definitely wasn't. Waited 8 weeks with ZERO communication from their end, cancelled my order and went elsewhere. Sure, they didn't charge my card at the time of order, but I still had to treat that money as "spent" and missed out on a couple of great deals.

[mikegideon]

Thanks Mike.

It looks like Model1 has a good selection of 20" barrels in stock, in various profiles. I'm guessing this could be a good compromise. 

 

I have a Model 1 upper with a 24" heavy stainless barrel (8 twist). It does a good job out to 600 with 77 grain matchkings.

[Caster]

I wish I had never seen a 1/7 twist barrel.

When I first got into it, I was on fire for it. Few years later....I hate it. It will shoot about two inches group with a 75g Amax at 100 yards. That's with an Eotech. I imagine a scope would be MUCH better. Using a 62g steel core bullet does pretty much the same.

On a whim I tried some 50g Zmax bullets. I wasn't even on the paper at a hundred. I imagine they weren't even a whole bullet by the time they got there. As Dolomite said, they will self destruct.
The SS109 runs about 3,100fps. In a 1/7 twist barrel that's 318,857 RPM if my math is right.

I've spent a small fortune to build an inventory that will keep my AR running through the worst of times. Had I built on a 9 twist barrel, I'd be out of pocket a lot less.

Listen brother, 1/9 twist. Maybe even slower if you get a deal. Slow the RPMs down on a 55g bullet and things change drastically.

[gregintenn]

There is a reason why the RGuns uppers are still available.

 

A 9 twist is what you want. 9 twist will shoot anythign up to 77 grain bullets, including 40 grain varmint bullets. 7 twist will cause the jacket to seperate on anything under 50 grains. I know I have slung the jackets from 53 SMK's in a 7 twist barrel.

 

Too fast is worse for accuracy than just barely stable. Look at all the match shooters, in their 30 caliber guns they are using 17 and 18 twist barrels when most factory guns have a 10 or 11 twist. The original 5.56 had a 12 twist barrel and it was devastating but they went to 9 twist and performance began to suffer then they went to 7 twist and it became even worse. This is why we are hearing all the complaints from troops in the middle east.

 

You could probably build an upper cheaper than buying right now. I just did a quick search of parts and you can build one for a little over $500.

 

Another option is to give these people a call and get an idea of lead times:

http://www.model1sales.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=152

They have great prices and their uppers are decent quality. They are a real deal when you take into account the cost.

Thanks for sharing the link. I did not know of this company. I may buy an upper from them as well. Looks like they have a good selection.

[Dolomite_supafly]

They have been in business pretty much from the begining of buying "AR Kits". I can swear I remember shopping with them at least 10 years ago.

[Guest summertime27]

We have uppers at CMT Tactical.

 

20" Upper

1-8 twist 20" A2 profile 41V50 steel chrome lined

15" Samson Evolution Hand guard

M16 BCG

M4 feed ramps on flat top forged upper

Optics ready

Test fired

$645.00 Shipped

 

16" upper

1-7 twist 16" 41V50 steel chrome lined

11" Samson Evolution Hand guard

M16 BCG

M4 feed ramps on flat top forged upper

Optics ready

Test Fired

$605.00 Shipped

 

 

We don't have uppers listed on our website & typically build to order but would ship 1-2 days after order is placed. If your interested in purchasing an upper from a company in TN. We would appreciate the business. Feel free to give Ben a call on Monday to discuss if still looking. 731-431-0935 Look us up on face book & you will be able to see lots of our builds & parts on our Fan page  https://www.facebook.com/pages/CMT-Tactical/503504313002497?fref=ts

 

I hope it was o.k. to post this here in reply to this post... if not, sorry. 

[MacGyver]

That's a nice deal from one of our premier sponsors.

[Handsome Rob]

Not at all Summertime! Thanks for the heads up.

I'll give it a good think. I'd really like to support a local dealer, especially a sponsor, but man it's really hard turning my head away from Model1's pricing.

[Rightwinger]

Spend the money here Rob!

[Guest summertime27]

Not at all Summertime! Thanks for the heads up.

I'll give it a good think. I'd really like to support a local dealer, especially a sponsor, but man it's really hard turning my head away from Model1's pricing.

 

 

Nothing wrong with Mod 1, but keep in mind their  initial / base price usually doesn't include BCG, or charging handle & depending on what hand guard you select the price will increase even more...

 

The prices I gave you above are ready to pin & shoot nothing to add but your optics. FYI those are TGO only prices..........

 

Check out the facebook link, we only build nice stuff. https://www.facebook.com/pages/CMT-Tactical/503504313002497?fref=ts

[crashgordan]

Nice stuff

[Handsome Rob]

Holy Carp! Model1's Lead Time Right Now Is 8-10 MONTHS!

:o

[RichardR]

I've built a few AR builds using Model1 parts, you'll never hear a complaint from me about the quality, in fact I still have the very first AR that I ever built (20" A2 standard service rifle HBAR) that was built using Model1 parts & it is still one of my favorite, most accuate, reliable AR's that I own.

Granted I haven't ordered anything from Model1 in probably 13 or 14 years, so things could have changed between now & then, but I always had good luck with regards to the qaulity of the parts that I received from them.

[JRWnTN]

I wish I had never seen a 1/7 twist barrel.

When I first got into it, I was on fire for it. Few years later....I hate it. It will shoot about two inches group with a 75g Amax at 100 yards. That's with an Eotech. I imagine a scope would be MUCH better. Using a 62g steel core bullet does pretty much the same.

On a whim I tried some 50g Zmax bullets. I wasn't even on the paper at a hundred. I imagine they weren't even a whole bullet by the time they got there. As Dolomite said, they will self destruct.
The SS109 runs about 3,100fps. In a 1/7 twist barrel that's 318,857 RPM if my math is right.

I've spent a small fortune to build an inventory that will keep my AR running through the worst of times. Had I built on a 9 twist barrel, I'd be out of pocket a lot less.

Listen brother, 1/9 twist. Maybe even slower if you get a deal. Slow the RPMs down on a 55g bullet and things change drastically.

I suspect your problems have more to do with the barrel itself or the ammo, rather than the twist rate.  I used to shoot in 300 yard Service Rifle Matches (distance limited by the range).  Virturally everyone used 1-in-7 barrels.  I've seem some very good groups with 52 gr. BTHP out to 300 yards.

 

I can't address 50gr. varmint bullets from 1-in-7 barrels, as never seen them used. I have, though, seen thousands of rounds of 55gr. FMJ throught the faster twist barrels without any problems.

Edited May 13, 2013 by JRWnTN

[Oh Shoot]

....I can't address 50gr. varmint bullets from 1-in-7 barrels, as never seen them used. I have, though, seen thousands of rounds of 55gr. FMJ throught the faster twist barrels without any problems.

 

Yeah, throwing jackets of 55gr. bullets with 1:7 barrels, sounds a bit extreme, never heard that said before

 

Especially since you can get reasonable results with a 37-40 grain .22LR bullet from 1:7, 1:8, or 1:9 twists in same .223 barrel using drop in kit, all of which are much more extreme examples compared to the 1:12 or so of a dedicated .22LR barrel?

 

- OS

[mikegideon]

Yeah, throwing jackets of 55gr. bullets with 1:7 barrels, sounds a bit extreme, never heard that said before

 

Especially since you can get reasonable results with a 37-40 grain .22LR bullet from 1:7, 1:8, or 1:9 twists in same .223 barrel using drop in kit, all of which are much more extreme examples compared to the 1:12 or so of a dedicated .22LR barrel?

 

- OS

 

Bear in mind that rotational rate is what will cause a jacket to turn loose. Twist rate and velocity effect rotational rate. A .22 LR is spinning at roughly 1/3 the rate for any given twist.

[Oh Shoot]

Bear in mind that rotational rate is what will cause a jacket to turn loose. Twist rate and velocity effect rotational rate. A .22 LR is spinning at roughly 1/3 the rate for any given twist.

 

Well, good point.

 

No ballistics scientist here, but I shoot mostly 55 gr. .223, and informally of course, but see no real diff tween my 1:8 or 1:7 barrels (don't have a 1:9, maybe it would be better). Though it's generally said that a rule of thumb is that any of the three is 'bout same ballpark for a 55gr, as per? :

 

 

- OS

Edited May 13, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[mikegideon]

I don't have any 1:7 barrels. I have three 1:9, and a 1:8. I shoot 82gr Bergers in my 1:8.

[trevorst]

I shoot 53gr in my 1-7 and can hold sub moa easily.

I much prefer 1-8 with a 223 wylde chamber. I just built one under 700 with a 20" Lothar Walther barrel that will outshoot all of my bolt guns.
Not a big fan of 1-9 twist as that shuts the door on some of the heavier bullets (although I do love my savage 10PC with a 1-9 twist).
It's very easy to piece one of these together and if you are near the tricities I would be glad to help.