Non-Resident FLA HCP

[Guest Keal G Seo]

Wondering if anyone has any experience with these that they care to share with me? Is there anything I may have missed? Any special rules I would have to adhere to because it is an out of state licence? I haven't read too much on FL laws regarding carry but in a situation where the laws may conflict, say something like duty to notify (just an example not sure if they actually conflict), would I be following TN or FL law?

I ask because I use public transportation at the moment and despite a lot of research I can't seem to find any class that would fall in their hours of operation so I can get back and forth. As far as I can tell I am eligible for Florida's non-resident HCP. It can be done by mail so that takes the travel burden off of me.

Question for everyone: Do you view this as a legitimate way to get a permit when hampered in obtaining one here?

Question for pro-HCP LEOs: How do you actually feel about out of state HCPs? As in do care what state issued it or even do care about reciprocity laws? Basically do you treat them differently than TN-HCP holders?

[DaveTN]

When in FL you have to abide by FL laws.

What stops you from getting an HCP here?

You can’t use an out of state permit here if you are a Tennessee resident. When coming from out of state you have a certain amount of time to get a Tennessee HCP.

[Erik88]

Regardless of what permit you have you must honor the rules in the stare you're in. It really doesn't matter what cops think of the law because you are not breaking any by carrying with a Florida CWFL. 

[Erik88]

You can’t use an out of state permit here if you are a Tennessee resident. When coming from out of state you have a certain amount of time to get a Tennessee HCP.

 

The title of the thread says "non-resident FLA permit". As far as I know he's allowed to carry here using that because TN honors non-resident permits. That's how Kwik was able to do so.

 

I'm not a lawyer so hopefully someone else will come along and confirm this.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Erik88

[DaveTN]

The title of the thread says "non-resident FLA permit". As far as I know he's allowed to carry here using that because TN honors non-resident permits. That's how Kwik was able to do so.
 
I'm not a lawyer so hopefully someone else will come along and confirm this.

If by “here” you mean FL, yes he can carry on that permit. If a TN resident can carry on an out of state permit, why not just get one of the cheap “by mail” permits? Just because “K” has one doesn’t mean it’s legal. I guess we would find out if he is stopped by a cop that recognizes his name and knows that his carry privileges are revoked in TN.

[Guest Keal G Seo]

When in FL you have to abide by FL laws.

What stops you from getting an HCP here?

You can’t use an out of state permit here if you are a Tennessee resident. When coming from out of state you have a certain amount of time to get a Tennessee HCP.

My travel arrangements and the time of all the classes. The ones that are on Mon-Fri seem to start around 5-6pm so people don't have to take off work and the weekend classes are entirely non-accessible through public transportation in my area.

And yes, I can, as pointed out by Erik this is a non-resident permit. If I had a resident HCP in FL then moved here I would have to update it or trade it in for a non-resident FL HCP. I know the law you are referring to and it doesn't say anything about out of state non-resident permits.

 

Regardless of what permit you have you must honor the rules in the stare you're in. It really doesn't matter what cops think of the law because you are not breaking any by carrying with a Florida CWFL. 

I know it doesn't actually matter in the eyes of the court but if there is a general opinion among LEOs. But that opinion would be of importance and/or consequence during the encounter.

 

If by “here” you mean FL, yes he can carry on that permit. If a TN resident can carry on an out of state permit, why not just get one of the cheap “by mail” permits? Just because “K” has one doesn’t mean it’s legal. I guess we would find out if he is stopped by a cop that recognizes his name and knows that his carry privileges are revoked in TN.

No we mean here as in TN. This is one of those cheap by mail permits. I am not sure what the story with K/Kwik is. I am just wondering about me, someone who if had personal transportation would be able to get one in TN. Anyone that thinks this is illegal is incorrect, you can have non-resident licences in any states that you qualify. Therefor if you live in a state that honors that states permits they are required to honor yours.

I chose FL because it is in the south, it is somewhat easy to get and is about the same price as here in TN. If TN would give me one just based on competency with a firearm and I could show that in just a quick range visit (FL just requires a hunters safety course) then pass the background and pay the fees it would be nice. Also if TN allowed unlicensed open carry, as the AL does, the state I moved here from, I would be fine never getting a permit and just open carrying. It is probably the wheelchair but in all my years in AL I never had one issue with anyone calling the police or confronting me for open carry. That is not just out in the rural areas but also in cities like Gulf Shores, Mobile, Birmingham and Huntsville.

Anyway, I gotta be out for while. I look forward to seeing everyone's replies when I get back. :)

Edited May 12, 2013 by Keal G Seo

[DaveTN]

And yes, I can, as pointed out by Erik this is a non-resident permit. If I had a resident HCP in FL then moved here I would have to update it or trade it in for a non-resident FL HCP. I know the law you are referring to and it doesn't say anything about out of state non-resident permits.

So because 39-17-1351 r3b, that addresses out of state permits, you think you are okay because it doesn’t use the words “Non-resident” for the permit issued by that state? Interesting, you may be right.

[mikegideon]

This has come up more than once. If you are a resident of Tennessee, you need a Tennessee permit to carry in Tennessee. There is a grace period when you move here, just like with a drivers license. If you have a Florida permit, and are a Tennessee resident, I think you're fine in other states that honor Florida permits... just not Tennessee.

 

If you think about it, it makes perfect sense. If your Tennessee permit is revoked for some reason, they are not gonna just let you get a mail order permit from another state and allow you to carry.

 

I'm not a lawyer or LEO, but I can read. OP, I understand your situation, but you're just gonna have to find a way to get it done here. It's less expensive than donating your gun to the police when they catch you with an invalid permit.

Edited May 12, 2013 by mikegideon

[Glock30]

Straight from the HCP section http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgunmain.shtml:

 

If a person with a handgun permit from another state decides to become a resident of Tennessee, the person must obtain a Tennessee handgun permit within six (6) months of establishing residency in Tennessee.

 

If you're new to Tennessee, MAYBE you have a case, but only for 6  months from the day you took on utilities or got a DL, etc.

 

If you're born and raised here, forget about it - you established residency a long time ago ;). There is only one legal way to carry a firearm in this state. Just take the time and go get a TN HCP.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Glock30

[Reservoir Dog]

I agree that the TCA does not specifically address non-resident out-of-state carry permits, however, it is quite obvious that the intent of TN law is that a TN resident must have a TNHCP in order to carry.  Otherwise, they would not have the requirement of out-of-state permit holders getting a TNHCP within six months of moving to TN.  It may seem to be a loophole, but I honestly would not want to be the test case on this.

 

I will probably get flamed for this, but I think TN should recognize out-of-state permits only if the person is a resident of the state from which the permit is issued.

[Oh Shoot]

The title of the thread says "non-resident FLA permit". As far as I know he's allowed to carry here using that because TN honors non-resident permits. That's how Kwik was able to do so.

 

Nope, as has been pointed out,  TN residents must have TN permit within 6 months of establishing residency to continue to carry.

 

TN honors ALL other state permits, by statute, not just policy. Statute says nothing about their needing to be resident permits.

 

- OS

[Erik88]

Nope, as has been pointed out,  TN residents must have TN permit within 6 months of establishing residency to continue to carry.

 

TN honors ALL other state permits, by statute, not just policy. Statute says nothing about their needing to be resident permits.

 

- OS

 

I stand corrected. So how was Kwik able to carry here with a Florida permit? I remember that coming up in previous threads. 

 

I do know several states allowed you to carry with non-resident permits so I assumed TN was the same. So what's the point of getting a Florida non-resident permit if you can't carry here?

[Oh Shoot]

I stand corrected. So how was Kwik able to carry here with a Florida permit? I remember that coming up in previous threads. 

 

I do know several states allowed you to carry with non-resident permits so I assumed TN was the same. So what's the point of getting a Florida non-resident permit if you can't carry here?

 

I never saw where he claimed he could carry in TN with it, only in other states.

 

- OS

[TheBeej418]

Florida is one of the states TN has a reciprocal agreement with. We honor theirs, they honor ours. If you're a FL resident in the eye of the law, should be good as long as you abide by our laws when carrying.

http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.shtml

[2.ooohhh]

I had to get a TN permit even though I was a resident of Oregon at the time due to a change in my employment. I went from contract labor based out of OR to being hired on locally by a TN based business. My resident OR permit was good in TN until then, but now I have to keep both up since OR doesn't recognize TN's permit.  :squint:

[Oh Shoot]

Florida is one of the states TN has a reciprocal agreement with.

 

TN honors all states' permits, including those who don't honor ours.

 

Now that apparently no folks with permits from no other states who move here and need a TN permit get a break on it of any kind, I don't necessarily see what the formal reciprocal agreements really do -- except some other states may require that formal reciprocity before they'll recognize our permit, so if that's the case I'm all for it, since no other state's permit is more widely recognized than the TN one. I don't think there's another that even ties.

 

- OS

[TMF]

I stand corrected. So how was Kwik able to carry here with a Florida permit? I remember that coming up in previous threads.

I do know several states allowed you to carry with non-resident permits so I assumed TN was the same. So what's the point of getting a Florida non-resident permit if you can't carry here?

Last I heard he was practicing his nonsense in Kentucky because he can't carry here.

[Oh Shoot]

Last I heard he was practicing his nonsense in Kentucky because he can't carry here.

 

Has a FFL from his home in Brentwood.

 

The KY thing was all about how he was gonna do a commando type open carry at the statehouse there, but apparently never did.

 

- OS

[JayC]

Is he still a TN resident?  I know a couple of 19 and 20 year olds that moved their residence to South Dakota, received a SD carry permit and DL there and carry legally here in TN.  But they aren't TN residents, they're SD residents who happen to spend a lot of time traveling.

 

The real issue is why did you become a TN resident, instead of staying an AL or FL resident?  My guess, is that getting a carry permit here for a 21+ year old is probably not worth the effort of changing state residency...  As I said I'm only aware of a couple of 19 and 20 year olds who did it so they could carry under 21, and for them in their situation it made sense. 

 

I stand corrected. So how was Kwik able to carry here with a Florida permit? I remember that coming up in previous threads. 

 

I do know several states allowed you to carry with non-resident permits so I assumed TN was the same. So what's the point of getting a Florida non-resident permit if you can't carry here?

Edited May 13, 2013 by JayC

[Guest Keal G Seo]

Ok first, i am not now nor have I in recent years been a resident of FL. I am 28 years old. I moved here, Cosby, about 3.5 years ago so my residency is already established. To JayC: I became a resident because I wanted to be back in the mountains...not the hills and the cost of living is pretty decent. Even with residency considered I am still eligible for a Non-Resident FL-HCP. No matter where I live or how long I am there, that FL-NR-HCP will be valid. I did not move to this state with any HCP. At the worst I could see, even if someone argued that residents must get a TN-HCP then it would still be good for 6 months and I could still use it when traveling to other states. With the current laws though, take a look at http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html then click on Florida and Non-Resident, TN law says that they honor FL-NR-HCP. So at the least would say there are conflicting laws and it is therefor unprosecutable.

I didn't come here to argue the law. I came with specific questions. Don't get me wrong, if you guys are right you are right. I just have yet to see anyone provide more than opinion on law.

[DaveTN]

So at the least would say there are conflicting laws and it is therefor unprosecutable.

I didn't come here to argue the law. I came with specific questions. Don't get me wrong, if you guys are right you are right. I just have yet to see anyone provide more than opinion on law.

All you will get from anyone including an attorney is an opinion; unless there is case law. You live in a state where it is illegal for a citizen to carry a gun: an HCP is a defense to that charge; so it is always prosecutable. I gave you the statue number and someone else quoted the text.

The Police Officer at the scene will decided if you are arrested and the DA will decide if you are charged. How and why the gun became an issue will be a bigger deciding factor in that than the license status.

If it makes sense to you that we all could just get out of state non-resident permits instead of getting a TN HCP permit; then go with it. You asked the question of us if we think your plan is legitimate. Most have told you no. We discuss opinions on the laws a lot here; but you are the only one that will be held responsible for your acts.

[Guest Keal G Seo]

All you will get from anyone including an attorney is an opinion; unless there is case law. You live in a state where it is illegal for a citizen to carry a gun: an HCP is a defense to that charge; so it is always prosecutable. I gave you the statue number and someone else quoted the text.

The Police Officer at the scene will decided if you are arrested and the DA will decide if you are charged. How and why the gun became an issue will be a bigger deciding factor in that than the license status.

If it makes sense to you that we all could just get out of state non-resident permits instead of getting a TN HCP permit; then go with it. You asked the question of us if we think your plan is legitimate. Most have told you no. We discuss opinions on the laws a lot here; but you are the only one that will be held responsible for your acts.

First let me say that I don't have a filter and I don't mean any of this in a demeaning way or anything. Just typing what I'm thinking.
But what I asked about it being legit was if people just just thought if this was legit when hampered from getting one here because of laws and limited public transit.
One more note on the required classes is that I have noticed most require you to bring the handgun you plan on carrying (not all but most, others ask you to bring your own firearm while fewer say they have them available) so I do have a 2 part legal question I will ask of everyone: Can you/I carry on public transportation? Could I transport a firearm on public transportation without a licence? Assuming I followed the same laws required for transporting it in a personal vehicle.

[Patton]

This was addressed in my Academy class by a TDS represenative. This question is brought up a lot with service members and their isn't even an exception for them. No, you can not carry in TN with a TN DL and a out of state carry permit. You might be able to slip by an officer but in an event you use a firearm in self defense it will be brought up in a civil case, yes civil case, that you were carrying illegally. Edited May 13, 2013 by Patton

[JayC]

No attorney, let alone one of us is going to recommend you carry on a out of state permit if you've been a resident of TN for 3.5 years.  There is no case law on the subject, so all you're going to get are 'opinions'.  But the state law is very clear, you must get a TN permit within 6 months of becoming a TN resident.  Clearly, you don't fall into the 6 month window.

 

So, you've got a couple of choices, first get a TN permit, it's a horrible bad system that only acts as corporate welfare for firing ranges and instructors, but it's the system we're stuck with in TN.  Second, stop being a TN resident, and then TN will honor your out of state permit with an out of state drivers license.

 

Most people choose to go the first route, because it's cheaper and easier.  As I've said, the only people I know who've gone that route, are people who can't get a TN HCP (due to age restrictions) and for them it's worth changing their residency to a state such as SD because that state issues permits to 18-20 year olds, that TN honors for out of state residents.  The only other reason I could see to put that much time and effort into it would be if you've been denied a permit here under the dreaded 'material risk' rule by TDOS and wanted to carry legally anyhow.

 

The long and short of it, you're out of luck the way TN state law is currently written, even though TN recognizes all permits from other states, it only recognizes TN permits for TN residents - so you're SOL.

 

I'd cite the exact law, but LexisNexis's copy of the TCA is down right now. 

 

Ok first, i am not now nor have I in recent years been a resident of FL. I am 28 years old. I moved here, Cosby, about 3.5 years ago so my residency is already established. To JayC: I became a resident because I wanted to be back in the mountains...not the hills and the cost of living is pretty decent. Even with residency considered I am still eligible for a Non-Resident FL-HCP. No matter where I live or how long I am there, that FL-NR-HCP will be valid. I did not move to this state with any HCP. At the worst I could see, even if someone argued that residents must get a TN-HCP then it would still be good for 6 months and I could still use it when traveling to other states. With the current laws though, take a look at http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html then click on Florida and Non-Resident, TN law says that they honor FL-NR-HCP. So at the least would say there are conflicting laws and it is therefor unprosecutable.

I didn't come here to argue the law. I came with specific questions. Don't get me wrong, if you guys are right you are right. I just have yet to see anyone provide more than opinion on law.

 

[CQB Elite]

Florida DOES not have a HCP. They issue a CWP- concealed weapons permit. I only mention it for two reasons: first, it's a matter of semantics and a pet peeve of mine. I'm a native Floridian and was a LEO down there for a long time. It drove me crazy to hear people say, "I was robbed" when in fact their house was in fact broken into and therefore a burglary. Second, you need to understand the differences in TN permit and FL's. Once you know the difference you will understand that you follow FL's statutes when you are there.