Could you end a firefight?

[Guest Wildogre]

It depends on the situation and if I am alone or not. I may take more chances if alone than with others. If with others take cover or move out of the area whichever is safer at the time.

 

Alone, I can think of two situations in general. One is a felony stop/arrest gone bad. In that case if shots are being fired then take cover and call 911. Now if the officer was down and the bad guy was acting as if he was going to kill the officer then I would strongly consider taking the shot.

 

Two would be a “North Hollywood” shoot out situation where the bad guy was not only targeting the officers but also innocent people then once again I would strongly consider taking the shot.

 

In all of the above I would have to be within 25 yards or so as that is the max range I have shot my carry piece at.

 

Now if the bad guy sees me and starts shooting at me and the cops then I would take the shot, at that point I am no longer a bystander.

 

Good point to think about.  

[wjh2657]

If you want to "mind play" scenarios, try this one. You are in court later and cops are not in the mood (bad public image) to admit that help was really needed. Two possibilities for your "interference" come to mind (I am sure there are many more)

1. You had a reason to want the perp dead, i.e. you are also a bad guy and part of the problem.

2. Cop never was in real trouble (they say) and you killed the perp for no legal reason.

 

Police departments and their officers have to debrief the department heads and their legal agents (County Attorney, DA, etc) and that is where the scenario to be played will be determined. Remember: legal is not cast in stone and neither are departmental politics.

 

Once a LEA is involved in a situation, the best policy is to stay clear and do not be involved.

[DaveTN]

If you want to "mind play" scenarios, try this one. You are in court later and cops are not in the mood (bad public image) to admit that help was really needed. Two possibilities for your "interference" come to mind (I am sure there are many more)

1. You had a reason to want the perp dead, i.e. you are also a bad guy and part of the problem.

2. Cop never was in real trouble (they say) and you killed the perp for no legal reason.

 

Police departments and their officers have to debrief the department heads and their legal agents (County Attorney, DA, etc) and that is where the scenario to be played will be determined. Remember: legal is not cast in stone and neither are departmental politics.

 

Once a LEA is involved in a situation, the best policy is to stay clear and do not be involved.

Why do I (or anyone else) care whether the cops say they needed my help or not if I kill an active shooter in the mall? Is no one in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm?  Is the mall empty and the guy is just cranking off rounds?

 

Under what scenario in your mind are the Officers at the scene, the investigating Officers, and the DA going to turn on you? Why are you being charged, and what are you being charged with?

[TMF]

Think of the mindset of a group of police officers involved in a shootout. They don't know who you are and they are all spun up. They are just as likely to shoot you as the bad guy. The thing to consider is if law enforcement is involved the situation is being handled by the folks being paid to handle it. I would absolutely assist an officer if I thought he was in imminent danger and there were no other officers there, but if we're taking multiple LEOs I'm just gonna keep my head down and let them do their job.

[10-Ring]

The question is just too open ended for one definitive answer. A lot just depends on the specific situation.  Unless the LEOs on the scene realize 100% that I'm a good guy I'm not going to put my hands anywhere near my gun.  I've had several encounters with LEOs while OCing, these encounters have never been because I was OCing, and I've never gotten any negative reactions from LEOs for doing so.  I will never put my hand near my gun in the presence of an LEO unless they know what I am doing. 

[LawVol]

I keep thinking about those pictures of the Boston bombers shooting it out with the cops in the middle of the street. I'd like to think that in my neighborhood, those guys would've been taking rifle fire from at least one second story window.

I know a camera wouldn't be the first thing I'd grab.

[JAB]

Personally, as long as I and mine are not involved, I feel that the best way to deal with trouble is to avoid it whenever possible.  Therefore, depending on the situation, there is a good chance that I would not insert myself into the situation.  Think of it this way; if I am 'out and about' then there is a good chance that I will have nothing more than my J-Frame and a reload.  To me, such a firearm is for personal protection and not for voluntarily jumping into a shootout that I could otherwise avoid.  Heck, even if I am carrying something bigger and/or higher capacity it will still be just a handgun.  Cops carry guns (and are paid) to actively engage criminals and protect society.  I carry a gun to protect myself and my friends/family not to engage in otherwise avoidable firefights.

 

That said, an 'active shooter in the mall' might be different, depending.  One factor is that I rarely would choose to go to the mall on my own so if I am there I am likely with friends or family.  My first inclination, then, would be to get whoever I was with to safety.  If that means attempting to shoot the active shooter then that is what I would do.  If it means taking my group, hitting the nearest exit and leaving all those strangers to fend for themselves then so be it.  [sarcasm] Of course, the point is likely moot as to my knowledge all the malls around here are posted so obviously no bad guys can shoot up the place. [/sarcasm]

[JAB]

...how often are police involved in a gun fight and the police are the "bad guys"?

 

Maybe not the 'bad guy', per se, but this is a real life incident which exemplifies why I likely won't get involved unless I or mine are at risk:

 

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/officer-cleared-in-fatal-shooting-of-undercover-co/nJmGM/

 

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-01-25/news/os-ucf-officer-shot-killed-lawsuit-20110125_1_officer-dennis-r-smith-valerie-jenkins-wrongful-death

 

Apparently, the court found in favor of Orlando and Officer Smith but personally, as a private citizen, I imagine even 'winning' such a lawsuit would pretty much ruin me - not to mention that I wouldn't bet on a private citizen faring nearly so well in a criminal proceeding as did Officer Smith, either.

 

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2009-10-01/news/0909300177_1_jenkins-officer-smith-court-documents

Edited May 6, 2013 by JAB

[Guest Darth Maul]

We could all just wear these and then we would be safe lol

http://www.popguns.com/badge/tennessee.htm


Probably the single most retarded thing I've ever seen. Still laughing at the thought of some mall ninja hero wearing one of these lol Edited May 6, 2013 by Darth Maul

[LagerHead]

My opinion is that this is a question of should I do "the hard right or the easy wrong"? Only you can make that decision. 

[jgradyc]

I really like these hypothetical scenarios because they force to think in advance about responses. I tend to agree with JAB for the reasons he mentioned.

[Glenn]

I keep thinking about those pictures of the Boston bombers shooting it out with the cops in the middle of the street. I'd like to think that in my neighborhood, those guys would've been taking rifle fire from at least one second story window.

I know a camera wouldn't be the first thing I'd grab.

I thought the same thing.

[JAB]

My opinion is that this is a question of should I do "the hard right or the easy wrong"? Only you can make that decision. 

 

See, I disagree.  I don't believe that either decision is inherently 'right' or 'wrong'.  Instead, I would agree with the second part of your statement and say that only the individual can decide, based on each, specific situation, what the 'right' thing to do would be.

[Makiaveli]

Why do I (or anyone else) care whether the cops say they needed my help or not if I kill an active shooter in the mall? Is no one in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm?  Is the mall empty and the guy is just cranking off rounds?

 

Under what scenario in your mind are the Officers at the scene, the investigating Officers, and the DA going to turn on you? Why are you being charged, and what are you being charged with?

 

 

I'll play Devil's Advocate.

 

As he said above, the cops might very well not want the bad publicity, or even just the officer on the scene not wanting to admit it. After all , he or she is human. So it could happen. 

 

As to why and what the charge would be, you shot at and/or killed someone. Add in a statement like "I saw what was happening and decided to help the officers" which could indicate you made conscious choice, and thus were not acting under the influence of fear and it's not unreasonable to think you are a smelly creek with no paddle or canoe for that matter.

 

Now I know I am not, and doubt that wjh is trying to say this is likely to happen, or that any given agency is prone to this etc. But the fact remains that every single cop/DA/Judge etc are human, and thus subject to bias, emotional issues etc. Yes I know they are screened. But that isn't perfect as the wanna-be cannibal cop from NYC proved.

[DaveTN]

I'll play Devil's Advocate.
 
As he said above, the cops might very well not want the bad publicity, or even just the officer on the scene not wanting to admit it. After all , he or she is human. So it could happen. 
 
As to why and what the charge would be, you shot at and/or killed someone. Add in a statement like "I saw what was happening and decided to help the officers" which could indicate you made conscious choice, and thus were not acting under the influence of fear and it's not unreasonable to think you are a smelly creek with no paddle or canoe for that matter.

That’s pretty bizarre. If I kill someone hopefully I would be acting on a conscious choice and not on some out of control fear. You think there will be a mall shooting where a citizen shoots an active shooter and the cops for some reason will say the citizen was in the wrong? Why would they do that and what about all the video? You think all the cops at the scene and all the investigators would put their careers on the line by lying about something they have absolutely no reason to lie about? I guess if I could believe that I would stay out of it also.

You could apply your “Crazy Cop” to any scenario you could dream up. Why carry a gun at all if you think using it will lead to cops throwing you in jail whether you were justified or not?

The question was… you are pinned down by a mall shooter would you be allowed to take the shot? The answer is yes.

Whether it was the cops or you that was pinned down; I would not run away or fail to act. That might be because I am secure in the fact I know the laws. Would I do something stupid enough to make the cops think I was a second shooter? No, it’s called situational awareness.

[Guest fastreb]

Just like the law concerning immunity from lawsuits resulting from a justifiable shooting are pretty clear here in TN, so is the law concerning self-defense. In a nut shell, it says you can act to protect not only yourself but others. It doesn't specify that you can't help an LEO. Here's what it says:

 

 

38-2-101.  Lawful resistance -- By whom made.

  Lawful resistance to the commission of a public offense may be made by the party about to be injured, or by others.

 

38-2-103.  Resistance by others.

  Any other person, in aid or defense of the person about to be injured, may make resistance sufficient to prevent the offense.

 

 

I think firing a weapon in the direction of an LEO, whether they are able to fire back or not, meets the requirements of the above laws. Now, LEOs do have to follow the law also. So, if they are being shot at and don't think that they are in any reasonable danger, they'd have no right to fire back and would not have any legal cover if they did so. Hence, any scenario where an LEO is being fired on, but especially where they are firing back, then suddenly saying they weren't scared a bit, and didn't know why you shot their antagonist, is so far-fetched that it's mind boggling.

 

From my experience, a more likely scenario is that if the officers saw you holding a firearm, especially if it is in anyway remotely pointed in their direction, they would mistake you for a second shooter trying to shoot them and they fire on you.They aren't going to know who you are, just that you're armed and firing a gun.

 

I'll share the following with you. I have first hand experience (17 years) being an LEO in a major department in this state. Remember, many officers now have very little to no experience with firearms before they take the job and have no interest in improving their skills, besides what is imparted to them during their training at the academy. Their yearly qualifications are not to improve their skills, just to give cover to their employers in litigation that the employer required them to maintain proficiency with their weapon. Along with the many who are mediocre shots, there are the few whose judgement is also mediocre at best. Would I try to help a fellow LEO under fire? You bet. But, I'd also remember that I can't do anyone any good if I'm dead too. If in civvies, I'd try to move to a position my own fellow officers couldn't see I was engaging the bad guy(s) before I did so. Major Rufus Gates (Memphis PD) was killed 11/07/94 by a fellow MPD officer who didn't recognize Maj. Gates, who was dressed in his civilian clothes and had his gun out. I am sure there have been others with other departments. 

[Guest ab28]

Not with LEO involved, you will get shot at by them.

Now if the bad guy came at me and shooting at me, yes.

I'm sure cops are trained to recognize concealed citizens, as in the type of gun you would be using, a tiny pistol or whatever. Be hard to mistake that for an enemy, no one is going to go on a shooting spree with a .380 that holds 6 bullets.

 

With that said, I'd have to be there to decide what to do, if he was about to shoot me or a cop, I'd take the shot.

[Raoul]

I'm sure cops are trained to recognize concealed citizens, as in the type of gun you would be using, a tiny pistol or whatever. Be hard to mistake that for an enemy, no one is going to go on a shooting spree with a .380 that holds 6 bullets.
 
With that said, I'd have to be there to decide what to do, if he was about to shoot me or a cop, I'd take the shot.

If you're in the middle of a firefight I wouldn't assume anyone would be able to determine just who you are, except that you are another shooter.
This stuff ain't like the movies.

[Guest ab28]

If you're in the middle of a firefight I wouldn't assume anyone would be able to determine just who you are, except that you are another shooter.
This stuff ain't like the movies.

Well, I could tell the difference in shootings I was in. I never shot a friendly, even as confusing as things got.

[Raoul]

Well, I could tell the difference in shootings I was in. I never shot a friendly, even as confusing as things got.

As an LEO or military?

[TMF]

I've been in many. I've been drawn down on more times than I can count and fired on once by friendlies. I don't trust someone hopped up on adrenaline and a finger on the trigger to make a well thought out decision. I expect him to shoot at me if he doesn't know who I am, which puts the onus on me not to present myself as a potential target.

Two unarmed women were engaged with over 100 rounds of ammo from nearly a dozen police officers for simply driving down the street. Anyone who thinks they're gonna jump in to a shooting to help out the Popo without being colocated or properly identified is a damn fool.

[Guest ab28]

As an LEO or military?

Military.