Constitutional Carry in Arkansas

[Guest Ceolas]

This one completely snuck up on me and I hadn't seen any coverage so i thought I would bring it up for discussion.

 

http://www.thearkansasproject.com/the-greatest-untold-story-of-the-89th-general-assembly/

 

I'm not sure if it is politically possible in Tennessee to get something like this passed, but there's always a hope.

 

Also not sure how easy to enforce the "Journey" concept is going to be, and how you can get away with carrying if you aren't leaving your county of residence.

 

Awesome that the State Police vetted the bill and signed off on it after trying to kill the previous one.

[Guest Joshua__423]

Thats fantastic news for Arkansas! Maybe the ideas will spill over the state lines

[DaveTN]

Doesn’t sound like “Constitutional Carry” to me. Constitutional carry wouldn’t need to discuss “Journeys” or going out of your county.

Sounds like limited open carry to me. But then I haven’t read the law or the legislation; just what they discussed in the article.

 

 

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I like it that it doesn't make it illegal, except as a defense to..., so many times. I like it.

[Guest Ceolas]

Another follow-up with a few more details - http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/04/robert-farago/arkansas-is-fifth-constitutional-carry-state/

 

I don't think we can have this here without some major changes. If I remember correctly in TN it is against the law to carry a handgun and the carry permit is a defense to breaking the law.

 

 

Constitutional Carry occurs in a state when no laws exist that generally restrict the carry of handguns (open or concealed) for self-defense purposes.

[Worriedman]

I don't think we can have this here without some major changes.

You are correct, like 65% of the sitting legislators.

 

 If I remember correctly in TN it is against the law to carry a handgun and the carry permit is a defense to breaking the law.

You are correct again, mostly.

[Randall53]

Also not sure how easy to enforce the "Journey" concept is going to be, and how you can get away with carrying if you aren't leaving your county of residence.

 

 

Now that is really ridiculous if it's the way the law is written.  Most people spend 99% of their time in their home county. Why can one be allowed self protection in another county, but not their home county?  I sure hope this does not come to TN.....

Edited April 25, 2013 by Randall53

[Guest 270win]

Presently, it is illegal to carry a weapon for the purpose to use it as a weapon against a person.  Carrying a handgun for self defense, unless you fall under certain defenses, is not legal.   Carrying a handgun for target shooting, snake, or hog protection is not carrying the handgun as a weapon.

 

The defenses include carrying a handgun approved by the Game Commission to and from your hunting spot (no law requiring it to be unloaded), when on a journey (this has been defined by case law), or of course with a concealed handgun license.

 

NOW the law has been changed to it being illegal to carry a weapon to use UNLAWFULLY against a person.  Carrying a weapon for self defense now would be legal because self defense is not an unlawful act.  In addition to that there are certain reasons that you can carry a handgun, such as being on a journey outside your county, going to and from hunting, or if you have a concealed handgun license.

 

In my reading of Act 746, if you are just carrying a handgun, knife, club, blackjack, or in your vehicle without a license, even in your home county, that would be legal as long as you are not trying to use the handgun unlawfully against a person.

 

Long guns never have been regulated by the state except in Hot Springs Village and Petit Jean.  You cannot carry a loaded center fire rifle, unless you have a CHL in those places.  Pretty much the whole state if you want to load up and chamber an AR 15 and put it in a gun rack or even walk down the street, no law against it as long as you aren't a criminal.  I used to keep a loaded single shot shotgun behind the seat of my vehicle when I lived there. 

[Guest PapaB]

One of the things in the act, that we could benefit from in TN, is they replaced the words "it is a defense to prosecution" to the words "it is permissible to carry a handgun". Although they threw in ridiculous specifics, they moved in a good direction. Tennessee can't do that with the current lineup of legislators.

 

New word "Legislayer", a politician that kills our rights with their votes.

[RobertNashville]

There is only one reason why we don't have true constitutional carry in Tennessee; the Tennessee State legislature (mostly the RINOs in it).

 

The TFA has been working toward this for a long time but it's been slow. With the recent mass shootings that have happened and thr RINOs who think they "gave us enough" in the worthless "parking lot bill" this past session I don't believe we'll see this come to Tennessee anyhtime soon.

 

After all...it would take the power elite deciding they could trust the rabble (voters)...I don't see that happening soon.

[DaveTN]

One of the things in the act, that we could benefit from in TN, is they replaced the words "it is a defense to prosecution" to the words "it is permissible to carry a handgun". Although they threw in ridiculous specifics, they moved in a good direction. Tennessee can't do that with the current lineup of legislators.

 

New word "Legislayer", a politician that kills our rights with their votes.

Have any legislators purposed a bill to make Tennessee the 5th Constitutional carry state?

 

They passed the TFFA (even though no one will test it). They passed legislation to allow guns in bars; they drove the parking lot bill down the throats of private business. The next obvious step is to make it legal for all citizens to be able to carry. We are at the end of “Baby Steps”; it’s time to join the big boys.

[Guest PapaB]

Constitutional carry can happen in TN the session after we get the majority of legislayers out of office.

 

When choosing candidates we need to stop asking the questions that let RINO's lie to us and ask more specific ones. Instead of asking "Where do you stand on the 2nd Amendment?" we should ask something like this:

"Article 1 Section 26 of the Tennessee Constitution says "That the citizens of this state have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime." Please name 1 law currently on the books in TN that you believe violates that part of the State Constitution."

 

If they can't answer the question, or say there is none, they won't be on our side. One really easy answer is the law that makes it a crime to enter a posted business. That law doesn't prevent any crime, it creates one. There are several possible choices that would be valid. They might not be able to answer on the spot but they shouldn't take more than 48 hours to come up with a valid response.

[RobertNashville]

Constitutional carry can happen in TN the session after we get the majority of legislayers out of office.

 

When choosing candidates we need to stop asking the questions that let RINO's lie to us and ask more specific ones. Instead of asking "Where do you stand on the 2nd Amendment?" we should ask something like this:

"Article 1 Section 26 of the Tennessee Constitution says "That the citizens of this state have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime." Please name 1 law currently on the books in TN that you believe violates that part of the State Constitution."

 

If they can't answer the question, or say there is none, they won't be on our side. One really easy answer is the law that makes it a crime to enter a posted business. That law doesn't prevent any crime, it creates one. There are several possible choices that would be valid. They might not be able to answer on the spot but they shouldn't take more than 48 hours to come up with a valid response.

I doubt you are going to find many if any legislators or want-to-be legislators who will agree that a business should not be able to restrict arms inside of their physical business/building and have those signs carry the force of law.

 

Hell, half the people on this forum think that even "allowing" a firearm to be inside of a locked, privately owned vehicle while sitting in a public parking lot is too much of an infringement on a property owner's "rights" (even though the courts have said otherwise).

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't or can't test them but I think we need a more clear-cut example :)

Edited April 30, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Guest PapaB]

RobertNashville, you can allow private property owners to ban firearms without making it a criminal offense, as many states currently do. In those cases, if you're caught carrying you get thrown out, not arrested. The business can ban you temporarily or permanantly if they wish, but it's not a criminal act. If you refuse to leave you're trespassing and can be arrested for that offense.

[RobertNashville]

RobertNashville, you can allow private property owners to ban firearms without making it a criminal offense, as many states currently do. In those cases, if you're caught carrying you get thrown out, not arrested. The business can ban you temporarily or permanantly if they wish, but it's not a criminal act. If you refuse to leave you're trespassing and can be arrested for that offense.

 

Yes, the current law could be modified but I know of no effective way for a business to "ban firearms" other than by signage that says so and the only way a sign can have any meaning is if there is a penalty for ignoring it that is sufficient to encourage people to obey it. That means, there would still have to be a law on the books and would be unconstitutional by your definition, correct?

 

If so, then it seems to me that any legislator/candidate who was in favor of continuing the law in any form wouldn't pass your test.

[Guest PapaB]

Yes, the current law could be modified but I know of no effective way for a business to "ban firearms" other than by signage that says so and the only way a sign can have any meaning is if there is a penalty for ignoring it that is sufficient to encourage people to obey it. That means, there would still have to be a law on the books and would be unconstitutional by your definition, correct?

 

If so, then it seems to me that any legislator/candidate who was in favor of continuing the law in any form wouldn't pass your test.

 

Your assumptions are correct. I view any TN law that regulates the wearing of arms without the aim of preventing a crime to be unconstitutional. If we don't work to defeat candidates willing to violate the TN Constitution, we won't get a better legislature. Unless someone can convince me that laws such as the posting law prevents crime, I won't consider it constitutional.

[RobertNashville]

Your assumptions are correct. I view any TN law that regulates the wearing of arms without the aim of preventing a crime to be unconstitutional. If we don't work to defeat candidates willing to violate the TN Constitution, we won't get a better legislature. Unless someone can convince me that laws such as the posting law prevents crime, I won't consider it constitutional.

Than back to my original statement that I doubt you will find many if any legislators or want-to-be legislators who will agree that a business should not be able to restrict arms inside of their physical business/building and have those signs carry the force of law which, would disqualify them from office per your position (if I'm understanding you correctly).

 

I guess what I'm saying is that while it's great to want legislators that look at the TN constitution the same way you do, I think it's an unobtainable/unrealistic goal...the only way you'll find someone who really looks at things the same way is for you to run for the office. ;)

[DaveTN]

The Tennessee Constitution conflicts with the 2nd amendment. That makes it a States Rights issue. Who wins when that happens? Well, unless the Federal government wants to take over law enforcement in the state; the state does.

I think the recent SCOTUS decisions did a good job in maintaining a balance. They could not rule that everyone can slap on a gun and walk down the street. The states would not stand for it, not even Tennessee. They also didn’t want to rule it was not an individual right, if they did it would open the door for some states to totally ban gun ownership.

Everyone has an opinion on the 2nd amendment; and they are free to do whatever they are ready to take responsibility for. I thought I had a 2nd amendment right to carry a gun; I was wrong, they threw me in jail. Same as they do to people every day in this state. I know with absolute certainty that the 2nd amendment will not be recognized in a courtroom if you are in violation of state law; therefore it isn’t a right.

[RobertNashville]

The Tennessee Constitution conflicts with the 2nd amendment. That makes it a States Rights issue. Who wins when that happens? Well, unless the Federal government wants to take over law enforcement in the state; the state does.

I think the recent SCOTUS decisions did a good job in maintaining a balance. They could not rule that everyone can slap on a gun and walk down the street. The states would not stand for it, not even Tennessee. They also didn’t want to rule it was not an individual right, if they did it would open the door for some states to totally ban gun ownership.

Everyone has an opinion on the 2nd amendment; and they are free to do whatever they are ready to take responsibility for. I thought I had a 2nd amendment right to carry a gun; I was wrong, they threw me in jail. Same as they do to people every day in this state. I know with absolute certainty that the 2nd amendment will not be recognized in a courtroom if you are in violation of state law; therefore it isn’t a right.

I don't disagree that the 2nd amendment won't be recognized in a courtroom; right now....the court would just be wrong.

 

And actually; there is nothing all that wrong with how our state constitution looks at the right to keep and bare...the problem is that our legislators past and present don't seem to grasp what "with a view to prevent crime" actually means.  As was correctly noted above, most if not all or our TN laws violate our our constitution (not that very many legislators or judges seem to care).

 

Non of which, of course, will keep you out of jail should you chose not to play the state's little game.

[Guest PapaB]

Than back to my original statement that I doubt you will find many if any legislators or want-to-be legislators who will agree that a business should not be able to restrict arms inside of their physical business/building and have those signs carry the force of law which, would disqualify them from office per your position (if I'm understanding you correctly).

 

I guess what I'm saying is that while it's great to want legislators that look at the TN constitution the same way you do, I think it's an unobtainable/unrealistic goal...the only way you'll find someone who really looks at things the same way is for you to run for the office. ;)

 

The signage law was an example of a possible answer, not the litmus test question. As I originally said, we need to be more specific with our questions and stop accepting "I support the 2nd Amendment" as good enough. RINO's lie about their real beliefs and asking broad generic questions doesn't work.

 

I'm not looking for someone to do what I would do, I'm looking for someone to stop violating our Constitution.

[Guest 270win]

No Gun Signs do not mean squat in Alabama, besides trespassing if you are noticed and do not leave when asked.  You can also carry in any park in Alabama and also legally in schools.  That is not to say the school can't ask you to leave, again if noticed.  But if you are noticed for carrying past a sign, park, or school, you cannot be arrested if you have a Pistol License.

 

There does not need to be any criminal penalty for someone with a license in Tennessee.  What is the point of getting a permit if you can still be arrested in places?  Oh by the way, people in Alabama basically buy their pistol licenses from the county sheriffs.  Just a background check.  No training and no fingerprints.  Some are issued on the spot in certain counties in AL.  So how can this not work in tennessee by getting rid of the sign fines and the school penalty?  Are people in AL somehow more qualified than us?  The legislature butchered a perfect opportunity to legalize carry in schools with their goofy 'school security' law that just past.  All it did was possibly legalize retired cops to carry in schools.  Big deal.  That is already legal in a lot of places. 

[RobertNashville]

Odd...I've be almost skinned alive (figuratively speaking of course) by some in this forum just for daring to suggest that anyone who can legally own, possess, transport a firearm should be legally able to do so and leave that firearm in their parked vehicle in a public/employee, etc parking lot regardless of signage or company policy...I've been denigrated for suggesting that my right to bare arms should, in that instance, supersede the business property owner's right to control his property...and we are only talking about a parking lot; not inside the building, etc.!

 

As pro-right to bare arms as I am; I don't believe that a property owner (private, or business) should be forced to allow firearms inside of their home/business proper. As such, the only way that a business can enforce such a policy is to allow (sufficient) signage and to have that signage carry some sort of criminal penalty for ignoring it.

 

I like signage; it tells me where my money is welcome and the businesses I to whom I should give my custom.  I don't mind the penalty for knowingly carrying past a sign because I don't knowingly carry past a sign.

 

I know this isn't the point of the thread so I apologize for hijacking it and I'll leave now. ;)

Edited May 3, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Guest 270win]

My problem with the signage deal is let's say you are out working and riding in the car with a customer.  You don't really know the customer and he takes you to a restaurant that has a sign in compliance with the 500 dollar fine.  So what do you do?  Do you say "Oh by the way I have this gun on me.  Can I hide it in your trunk?"  Or do you just keep your mouth shut and go about your business?

 

My opinion is that most states do not attach any criminal penalty to a 'no gun' sign.  If it works in those states, how would it hurt to change the law in TN?  Trespassing works just fine in the surrounding states that 'no gun' signs have no legal weight.  I do not think the state govt should enforce some workplace policy when it comes to weapons the 500 dollar signs.  A business can always ask someone to leave or fire the person.  On the flip side I do not think the state has any place in forcing a business to ALLOW weapons no more than it forces business to disallow smoking.  There is a difference between policy and criminal offense and I think too many people think these gun permits should fall in line criminally with some company's policy. 

 

I agree that any lawabiding adult should be able to carry a firearm without any sort of permit.  That is something that does not seem to cause any harm in other states that have unlicensed open carry, unlicensed concealed carry, or at minimum carry in cars.

 

I do think in the meantime though, we need to cut down on the obstacles for legal carry for those with permits.

Edited May 3, 2013 by 270win

[RobertNashville]

I think there are ways to handle that situation.

 

I'm not going to go into a lot of details but one way that works well is carrying off body in a "day planner" (Galco sells a nice one but there are others)...obviously this would not work for everyone/every profession but if you work in any sort of job where having a day planner would be seen as remotely "normal' then on one is going to question you about why you have one. If your customer want's to go into a place that doesn't allow firearms then you leave your planner in the vehicle.

 

I know it's not a perfect solution but it's a reasonable one.

 

I guess in the end I just don't see why people are so opposed to businesses who post and having those signs have the force of law...what truly bothers ME is when "public" places (parks, government buildings, schools, etc.) are "off limits" to firearms.