"Intent to go Armed"

[Guest Maximnole]

Wife posed an interesting question that frankly had no clue.  We were watching the news and some car got broke into and guns stolen...

 

Her question was...While it is illegal to "carry" into schools, parks, Post office....."IF" the weapon is un-loaded does it meet the "intent to go armed"?  Her idea was it would be better to drop the mag, leave it in the car...keep the gun on your person vs getting it stolen by break in.  At that point the "gun" becomes a brick anyway..right?  She kinda makes a good point.

 

I go to post office (ya I could just keep everything concealed and take a chance)....drop my mag in the car....take my weapon with me into post office, clearly no Intent to go Armed...do my business...back car...load-up?  Same with picking a kid up from school....

 

Thoughts?

[dralarms]

The gun is the firearm, not the mag. So if you carry the frame into any place that's posted you have violated the law.

[Just2Honor]

I believe "dralarms" is correct.        Besides if someone saw the weapon they would not necessarily know it was unloaded and your intent was not to be armed.

[Dolomite_supafly]

And it is against the law for anyone within the state's borders to carry a firearm. Anyone who has any gun on their person has broken the law, this includes those with HCP's. Now a subpart to the same law that was broken, by carrying a firearm, has defenses listed and having a valid HCP is a valid defense to the law. Because the law has been broken this gives LE probable cause to investigate anyone who is carrying a firearm. Then Law Enforcement uses that probable cause to investigate and determine if the person who broke the law has a defense to the law.

 

If you carry a firearm into the post office you have violated not just state law but federal law as well. Makes no difference whether the gun is loaded or not as the firearm is what is forbidden. I would strongly suggest you leave the firearm in your vehicle before entering a post office.

[cannoncocker]

I believe Federal law requires the building be posted at each public entrance.

[monkeylizard]

"Intent to go armed" is in some of our TN state statutes. It is is none of the federal laws that come to mind.

 

Federal facilities are covered under 18 USC § 930 and have some exceptions to the no firearms law. One exception that may make a legal grey area is the phrase "or other lawful purposes". To my knowledge, HCPs don't count, but I don't know (nor would I know) of any challenges to that.*

 

US Postal facilities are not covered under either TN state law nor US title 18. The USPS gets to play by their own rules which are in Title 39 instead of Title 18. Title 39 does not have the "other lawful purposes" phrase. It makes 1 exception and 1 exception only. 

 

http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/232-1-conduct-postal-property-19777182

 

 

 (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

. Note that this includes "postal property". That includes parking lots at the post office.

 

By and large, the federal laws on this are clear and that dog bites hard.

 

 

*I know the parks service allows carry based on the state's laws in which the park, or that portion of the park, is located. The buildings where actual real US NPS employees work are automatically considered federal facilities and are off-limits. They're pretty good about posting them, but I don't think they have to do that to make them off-limits. Other buildings are OK, like snack shops operated by a contractor. I assume that all federal buildings are the same. They post them for our benefit, but posted or not, they're still no-go areas. I could be very mistaken on that assumption. I don't know the USC as well as I do the TCA, which is sometimes questionable itself about how well I know that one.

Edited April 24, 2013 by monkeylizard

[jcoosi]

Why do have stupid restrictions on where we carry cause after all I have no intent on causing anyone harm. Like my dad always said "A lock only keeps an honest man honest."

[monkeylizard]

Why do have stupid restrictions on where we carry cause after all I have no intent on causing anyone harm. Like my dad always said "A lock only keeps an honest man honest."

 

You're preaching to the choir.

[Dolomite_supafly]

The only time you can eneter a post office with a firearm is if it is a long gun and you are shipping it. It is legal to ship long guns through the postal office but not handguns.

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

Wife posed an interesting question that frankly had no clue.  We were watching the news and some car got broke into and guns stolen...

 

Her question was...While it is illegal to "carry" into schools, parks, Post office....."IF" the weapon is un-loaded does it meet the "intent to go armed"?  Her idea was it would be better to drop the mag, leave it in the car...keep the gun on your person vs getting it stolen by break in.  At that point the "gun" becomes a brick anyway..right?  She kinda makes a good point.

 

I go to post office (ya I could just keep everything concealed and take a chance)....drop my mag in the car....take my weapon with me into post office, clearly no Intent to go Armed...do my business...back car...load-up?  Same with picking a kid up from school....

 

Thoughts?

 Your wife does indeed make a good point, a very logical point. The problem is that logic has no place with the Anti's and often not within the laws either.

 

It would be best to follow all the advice given and the letter of the law rather than look for any logic within the laws. What may seem logical and reasonable to us is evil and criminal to the other side.

[Oh Shoot]

...

By and large, the federal laws on this are clear and that dog bites hard.

 

50 clams and/or 30 days for carry at PO ain't so bad. :)

 

- OS

[Guest 270win]

State law wise, it is illegal to possess a firearm with 'intent to go armed'.

 

The courts, in my reading, have defined 'going armed' as possessing a weapon with intent to use it offensively or self defense wise. 

 

So you can say possess a firearm to take to the gunsmith for repair because that is not 'going armed'.  But if you possess that firearm for self defense against a person, that then is 'going armed'.

 

 

The school gun law in TN has two separate offenses.  One is a misdemeanor that prohibits pure POSSESSION of a firearm on school property.  The other is a felony offense that prohibits possessing a firearm with 'intent to go armed'.  So again, if you are possessing this firearm at a school to be repaired, then that is not going armed.  BUT if you are carrying for self defense that is 'going armed'.

 

Same thing as far as clubs.  You can have a club as a tire knocker for an 18 wheeler or you can have the club as a weapon for self defense or offensive use.  Self defense purpose for the club is 'going armed' and tire knocker is not going armed.

 

Of course this is all based on my readings.  The average police officer probably does not have a lot of background on cases and interpretations on the 'going armed' and honestly probably arrests anyone who is possessing a firearm in public without a license who does not have the gun unloaded and in the trunk.  You would need a lawyer to argue your case of not 'going armed' to the prosecutor.

[Oh Shoot]

....The courts, in my reading, have defined 'going armed' as possessing a weapon with intent to use it offensively or self defense wise. 

 

One thing is pert dang clear in TN law:

 

a loaded firearm is always de facto "intent to go armed", and you must fit under one of the exceptions or defenses to legally possess one -- any more nuanced argument of preponderance of the evidence is likely to be only heard in court.

 

- OS

Edited April 25, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Guest TN.Frank]

The "Intent to Go Armed" deal was one of the dumbest things I ran across when I first moved here 17 years ago from AZ. Back in AZ we had open carry and I did and it was normally a BIG gun like a Ruger Redhawk or Super Blackhawk or the like. I move here and all of a sudden I can't carry, felt like I lost my left nut or something, man it hurt to not have my gun with me.
Once they passed HCP I got it and have had it ever since so I can carry now. Personally, I see no harm in running in to check the P.O.Box while armed with my CCW gun. As long as no one sees it then it's "no harm, no foul" IMHO. YES, I would be breaking the law, a totally useless, ignorant law which deserves to be broken.
Just think of how many kids could have been saved in Newtown, CT. if just one teacher had the guts to break the stupid "Gun Free(killing)Zone law.
Politicians set up these laws with the "warm, fuzzy, feel good" notion that a criminal will obey them but what they get is a bunch of helpless victims whenever a nut case wants to go on a shooting rampage.
You want my take on the matter, do away with Gun Free Zones, pass a Constitutional Carry law so that a Citizen can carry everywhere, all the time and we'll have less of these little shooting rampages or at the very worse they'll end quickly with the perp being shot down by a bunch of armed Citizens.
As much as I hate the thought of moving back to Phoenix,AZ at least I'll be free to carry and even carry concealed without need for a permit because they DO have Constitutional Carry now in AZ. so I'll not have to pay $50 every 3 years for my RIGHTS like I do here.

[Guest 270win]

From what I understand, you are breaking a minor postal regulation (50-100 dollar fine) if you carry in a post office. 

[Oh Shoot]

From what I understand, you are breaking a minor postal regulation (50-100 dollar fine) if you carry in a post office. 

 

Already said, $50 and/or 30 days.

 

Same max penalty for carrying in a Knoxville park.

 

- OS

Edited April 25, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[BlackHawk93]

" Because the law has been broken this gives LE probable cause to investigate anyone who is carrying a firearm. Then Law Enforcement uses that probable cause to investigate and determine if the person who broke the law has a defense to the law.'

 

 

With this being the case, does the fact that you're actually breaking the law by carrying, even though you have a defense in the form of an HCP, give an officer probable cause to search your vehicle without asking you? Just curious on this because, even though I haven't been pulled over in years, (knocking on wood), the last time I was, I was asked if I would consent to a search of my vehicle. At the time I had nothing to hide and said sure, not really giving much thought to the right I just gave up. The cop obviously saw I wasn't concerned and after saying "sure", he handed me my license back and said have a good day.

 

While I don't plan on consenting to warrantless searches anymore, just curious if the law could be interpreted in this way.

Edited April 29, 2013 by BlackHawk93

[Makiaveli]

50 clams and/or 30 days for carry at PO ain't so bad. :)

 

- OS

 

Unless the charge and/or the 30 days part leaves you unemployed.

 

I know businesses can, but can individuals call and schedule a pick up? 

[Oh Shoot]

I know businesses can, but can individuals call and schedule a pick up? 

 

Yes, but not with phone call, but do online, if you can generate label and use "Priority Mail®, Express Mail®, Global Express Guaranteed®, or Merchandise Return services".

 

It's during their regular delivery time frame, not like they make separate trip just to do it.

 

 

 

- OS

Edited April 28, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Makiaveli]

Yes, but not with phone call, but do online, if you can generate label and use "Priority Mail®, Express Mail®, Global Express Guaranteed®, or Merchandise Return services".

 

It's during their regular delivery time frame, not like they make separate trip just to do it.

 

 

 

- OS

Good to know.

 

So do you know everything, or just most stuff? ;)

[Oh Shoot]

Good to know.

 

So do you know everything, or just most stuff? ;)

 

All you have to do is get old and remember about half the stuff you see or read. ;)

 

Seriously, I know a bit about individual shipping methods from years of doing it from my one man biz and eBay selling.

 

- OS

[Guest Nunya]

The only time you can eneter a post office with a firearm is if it is a long gun and you are shipping it. It is legal to ship long guns through the postal office but not handguns.

 

And when you try to exercise this right, prepare for a debate across the counter.

[Oh Shoot]

And when you try to exercise this right, prepare for a debate across the counter.

 

Yup, and worst of all is attempting to send intrastate to non licensee with both USPS and UPS.

 

I've never had to do that, but have sent several handguns and long guns back to manufacturer, so I just package with preprinted labels and drop them off without interaction, since federal law only requires notification if going between two non-licensees. Have sent long gun via USPS and both pistols and long guns via UPS. And didn't worry about UPS notification requirement in TOS (how can they prove I didn't notify?)  though I did send the handguns overnight according to their TOS just in case they got lost or something.

 

- OS