Vehicle on School Property

[daddyo]

The law says it's OK. But even with this law, schools are still "gun-free" killing zones.

[Alpha7]

I also understand that it is legal to carry on campus if you are picking up/ dropping off and a student, but will not be exiting the car. Am I correct?

Read the law posted above. Pretty cut and dry.

[pegasusrider]

Don't ask, don't tell, don't touch when on school property. And pray we don't have another Columbine or Virginia Tech because our lawmakers won't allow the staff the option to be armed.

[Fallguy]

I also understand that it is legal to carry on campus if you are picking up/ dropping off and a student, but will not be exiting the car. Am I correct?

This is one time the law is fairly clear.

39-17-1310 Affirmative defense to carrying weapons on school property.

It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under § 39-17-1309(a)-(d) that the person's behavior was in strict compliance with the requirements of one (1) of the following classifications:

(4)

A person entering the property for the sole purpose of delivering or picking up passengers and who does not remove, utilize or allow to be removed or utilized any weapon from the vehicle.

[Fallguy]

As far as the difference between K-12 schools and colleges and universities, TMK the AG in addressing off-duty LEO carry is the only place I've seen a difference mentioned.

See Footnote 6 of AG Opinion 09-30

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1350©(1) limits the authority of off duty law enforcement officers to carry firearms on school grounds. That subsection requires the law enforcement officer to notify the principal immediately upon entry onto school property. Based on the context, school property within the meaning of Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17- 1350 is not as broad as the definition of the term in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1309. In section 1350, the use of the term principal indicates that the notification requirement in that subsection applies to elementary and secondary schools only and has no application to campuses under the control of the Board of Regents. If the legislature had intended to have the notification requirements to apply to college campuses, it would have used terms such as dean, provost, or other term that is commonly associated with college officials. The omission of college officials from the notification requirement set forth in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1350©(1) indicates that the legislature intended to authorize off duty law enforcement officers to carry firearms on college campuses without notifying college officials.

[Guest colrmccoll]

There was a recent instance in Knoxville of an arrest of a person who had a crack house next to a Boys and Girls Club, The police also found several weapons. One of the charges was weapons possession in a school zone.

I did not realize a Boys and Girls Club was defined as a school.

[Guest HexHead]

There was that case a few months ago where the judge told the guy he should have pulled the gun on the guy threatening him with a knife and he would have been okay.

IIRC, it was after a football game and the defendant had the gun in his glove box. He got into an argument with another dad who threatened him and pulled a knife. He moved his gun from the glove box to the seat, and that's what he was in trouble over, handling the firearm on school property. Not for having the gun locked in his glove box.

Had he pulled the gun on the guy holding the knife, it would have been justified and the judge would have let him off.

[tt0511]

My wife and I were told the same thing in our permit class last month, ...no guns on school property. So, I looked at the state HCP website where all the state codes are listed and found that it is NOT illegal to have a firearm in your vehicle, either when picking up a student, or for a teacher to have one locked up in their car so long as they do not "handle" it on school property. I think the codes/laws are clear enough for the average bear in this regard...

Tennessee Code Annotated (T.C.A.) 39-17-1309. Subsection © (1) states the following:

© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

I mean, crap, if these plain words are understandable, then pee on it. I'd be making one heck of a logical argument in court if they tried to say it doesn't mean what it says. What? Words don't have any meaning? Grab a Webster's dictionary and try telling me that again. I think a jury would understand the plain words and the common sense argument. If you're still concerned, contact a lawyer and ask them. As far as me and my house, we are satisfied with the plain reading above.

Btw, ...my wife is a teacher so this subject is of particular interest to us. If I have misread the code, though I feel I scraped it pretty good, someone please show me the error of my ways.

I think the two pieces of legislation linked above that are currently under consideration are likely intended to remove any obscurity from the existing law so that it is even more plain and clear. Just my guess.

Edited February 9, 2010 by tt0511

[macville]

© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

I mean, crap, if these plain words are understandable, then pee on it. I'd be making one heck of a logical argument in court if they tried to say it doesn't mean what it says. What? Words don't have any meaning? Grab a Webster's dictionary and try telling me that again. I think a jury would understand the plain words and the common sense argument. If you're still concerned, contact a lawyer and ask them. As far as me and my house, we are satisfied with the plain reading above.

Btw, ...my wife is a teacher so this subject is of particular interest to us. If I have misread the code, though I feel I scraped it pretty good, someone please show me the error of my ways.

The question is what the word "operate" means in the law. Can you park your car and go inside and still be consider to "operate" the car? I read it two ways... first as someone who is picking up a student and is actively driving the car (not sure about parking for a minute to walk int o pick up your child, etc) and second as an adult who drove the car onto the property (not a student) so they were the "operator."

We really need to spend some time cleaning up our laws in this state.

Matthew

[Fallguy]

My wife and I were told the same thing in our permit class last month, ...no guns on school property. So, I looked at the state HCP website where all the state codes are listed and found that it is NOT illegal to have a firearm in your vehicle, either when picking up a student, or for a teacher to have one locked up in their car so long as they do not "handle" it on school property. I think the codes/laws are clear enough for the average bear in this regard...

Tennessee Code Annotated (T.C.A.) 39-17-1309. Subsection © (1) states the following:

© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

I mean, crap, if these plain words are understandable, then pee on it. I'd be making one heck of a logical argument in court if they tried to say it doesn't mean what it says. What? Words don't have any meaning? Grab a Webster's dictionary and try telling me that again. I think a jury would understand the plain words and the common sense argument. If you're still concerned, contact a lawyer and ask them. As far as me and my house, we are satisfied with the plain reading above.

Btw, ...my wife is a teacher so this subject is of particular interest to us. If I have misread the code, though I feel I scraped it pretty good, someone please show me the error of my ways.

I think the two pieces of legislation linked above that are currently under consideration are likely intended to remove any obscurity from the existing law so that it is even more plain and clear. Just my guess.

Of course the plain words you speak of say it is not an offense under subsectin © it does not mention subsection (, which is the felony.

So the exception in the second half of 39-17-1309©(1) only applies to subsection © which is not the intent to go armed part. As I said in my first post if the gun is loaded, there could be an argument that is your intent to go armed, in that case you are in violation of subsection ( the felony, and there is no exception for leaving it in your car for that subsection.

[Links2k]

This is one time the law is fairly clear.

39-17-1310 Affirmative defense to carrying weapons on school property.

It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under § 39-17-1309(a)-(d) that the person's behavior was in strict compliance with the requirements of one (1) of the following classifications:

(4)

A person entering the property for the sole purpose of delivering or picking up passengers and who does not remove, utilize or allow to be removed or utilized any weapon from the vehicle.

I carry a copy of that in my glove box. I don't want any issues when picking up my kids from school.

Edited February 9, 2010 by LINKS2K

[tt0511]

The question is what the word "operate" means in the law. Can you park your car and go inside and still be consider to "operate" the car? I read it two ways... first as someone who is picking up a student and is actively driving the car (not sure about parking for a minute to walk int o pick up your child, etc) and second as an adult who drove the car onto the property (not a student) so they were the "operator."

We really need to spend some time cleaning up our laws in this state.

Matthew

I see your point. My reading of it was that of case number (2) you listed. I just wrote my senator and representative regarding this concern because in the description of SB1622/HB1806, this "operated" wording still appears. I've asked them what we can do to clarify the law as it exists and as proposed in the new bills.

One thing I believe I keyed in on when I came to my conclusion before is that the code doesn't read "BEING operated". It simply says "operated by". That helping verb can mean a world of difference.

The whole difficulty for my family is that, my wife being a teacher, once we obtain our "applied for" permits, if she is not allowed to have her carry gun locked up in a safe box in her car while at work, that also means she cannot carry Monday through Friday, EVER.......because she has to drive to and from work daily doesn't she? Well, that means it would be nearly meaningless for her to have a permit. God forbid her car breaks down on the highway and some bad person comes along while she's waiting for me to get to her. She would be helpless because her job is at school and she wasn't allowed to transport her firearm in her vehicle. Can anyone say Suzanna Hupp?

Edited February 9, 2010 by tt0511
added information

[tt0511]

39-17-1310 Affirmative defense to carrying weapons on school property.

It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under § 39-17-1309(a)-(d) that the person's behavior was in strict compliance with the requirements of one (1) of the following classifications:

(4)

A person entering the property for the sole purpose of delivering or picking up passengers and who does not remove, utilize or allow to be removed or utilized any weapon from the vehicle.

I carry a copy of that in my glove box. I don't want any issues when picking up my kids from school.

And I think this can be an umbrella over my wife who's a teacher. She "is" entering the property for the sole purpose of delivering and/or pickup of passengers, ....namely, ...herself.

I hope this is all informative and pertinent to the OP. If it's gotten off track, I apologize. Not trying to hijack your thread.

Edited February 9, 2010 by tt0511

[JAB]

The question is what the word "operate" means in the law. Can you park your car and go inside and still be consider to "operate" the car? I read it two ways... first as someone who is picking up a student and is actively driving the car (not sure about parking for a minute to walk int o pick up your child, etc) and second as an adult who drove the car onto the property (not a student) so they were the "operator."

We really need to spend some time cleaning up our laws in this state.

Matthew

Yep. Also, what does it mean that the firearm is in your 'possession'? If it is locked in the glove box while you are in the building then is it really in your possession? Does 'possession' mean you retain active control over the firearm by having it on or in the immediate vicinity of (as in next to you in a messenger bag, etc.) your person?

So, does the law really say that you are only okay to pick up/drop off passengers as long as you are a non-student adult who remains actively in control of the firearm (it is on your person), are in the act of operating - i.e driving - the car (are behind the wheel and do not exit the vehicle) and you do not handle the firearm nor allow it to be handled while on school property? Is this really just a variation of the 'pass through' law that allows firearms to be carried by a person driving on a public road that passes through a restricted zone which makes a similar exception for passing through a school parking lot/student pick up and drop off area? I'm thinking yes, but IANAL.

FWIW, that is also the way my HCP class instructor and his wife (who is a first-grade teacher) interpreted the law. This is an important subject to me as I work at a private college (I don't see that the law makes any distinction for the type of school, grade level or anything else) and believe this law makes it illegal for me to even have a firearm in my vehicle while at work and parked on school property - effectively interfering with my legal ability, with my HCP, to carry in non-restricted areas on my way to and from work.

Edited February 9, 2010 by JAB

[Fallguy]

Ok....looks like we starting to confuse 3 different areas of the law on school carry.

There is the Pick-up and drop-off under 39-17-1310

Posession with the intent to go armed 39-17-1309( and

Posession with out the intent to go armed, 39-17-1309©.

39-17-1310 IMO is not intened to include yourself as a passenger or even leaving the vehicle. It is soley for parents dropping off or picking up kids and as someone else said, more or less driving through.

There is an exception under 39-17-1309© but 39-17-1309( so in that case it would depend on whether your carry/possesion is with the intent to go armed or not.

[macville]

It seems like to me, if you want to have your firearm in your car while on school ground and NOT picking up a student, it would have to be unloaded and the ammo separated. Basically, the same situation as someone who doesn't have a HCP but wants to transport firearms in their cars. Really, if you don't have the ammo near the gun (intent to go armed) then at worse C1 applies. However, I don't know what "possess" means in this case. It could mean simply locked up in your car or both the weapon and the person is in the car.

Let's just fix this by eliminating a ban on school carry. The current ban across most of the country doesn't seem to make the schools any safer.

BTW, if you B1 you find out that knives up to 4" are legal to carry in schools because you can't be accused of going "armed" since they aren't considered "dangerous" weapons.

Matthew

[tt0511]

Since this is relevant to the OP, ...I'm having an email dialog with a good friend of mine who is a LEO. Posting his dialog here for the benefit of all and will continue to update as I receive information.

Also, this is not legal advice. I trust my friend and he is a LEO in Davidson County. But, I assume no responsibility for any adverse consequences of anyone other than myself and my wife following the information posted in this series of email dialogs. It is just FYI from the mouth of a local LEO.

Email # 1:

I can not give you a yes or no yet but now I would like to know...

I will do some research and ask case prep about that. I believe she is allowed to have her gun in the car and keep it in there while she is in school. Although not required it would be a good idea to lock it up in a small safe as you stated. Now since her vehicle is subject to search anytime without a reason there are issues there. In the event that happens is when the authoritative person searching must know the law. Also there may be policy your wife may have to follow as a teacher. A lot to consider and yes not something I have had to deal with.

Email # 2:

I will also add this TCA code for reference as of now. I underlined the section I believe would allow her to keep the gun in her car while at work.

Scroll down to 39-17-1309©(1)

Her permit would allow her to have it loaded to and from work. So based on this information I feel she can transport her gun loaded under her permit and have her gun locked up in the car because her intent is not to go armed inside the school. (I responded with the question of "what about intent to go armed on school property? Will post his answer when it comes in.)

39-17-1309. Carrying weapons on school property. —

(a) As used in this section, “weapon of like kind†includes razors and razor blades, except those used solely for personal shaving, and any sharp pointed or edged instrument, except unaltered nail files and clips and tools used solely for preparation of food, instruction and maintenance.

( (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any firearm, explosive, explosive weapon, bowie knife, hawk bill knife, ice pick, dagger, slingshot, leaded cane, switchblade knife, blackjack, knuckles or any other weapon of like kind, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution.

(2) A violation of this subsection ( is a Class E felony.

© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

(2) A violation of this subsection © is a Class B misdemeanor.

[tt0511]

For background info, he was responding to the email I sent my state senator and representative, which is pasted below. I am new to contacting my representatives so if this is not in good form, I apologize. My newfound passion for gun ownership, the second ammendment and subsequent interest in legislation and law have started me down the course of contacting my representatives for the first time. I've been clueless as to what's being decided for me up until now. So, ...bear with me. I'm doing the best I know how at the present time.

Hello Senator and Representative. I have a question or concern regarding the subject bill. SB1622/HB1806 as introduced would allow persons with a valid carry permit to have a firearm on school property as quoted below:

Under present law, the Class B misdemeanor offense does not apply if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property. This bill adds that the Class E felony offense also does not apply in such circumstances; however, under this bill, the exception will only apply to the offenses if the person has a handgun carry permit.

My concern is with the word "operated" in the clause. I have spoken with several handgun carry permit holders as well as my carry permit instructor about this and there seems to be debate regarding exactly what the word "operated" means in this context. There are two ways to interpret this. It can be interpreted to mean (1) as someone who is actively driving the car, and (2) as an adult who drove the car onto school property, so that they were the "operator". I know the distinction seems mild. However, it is a big concern to my family because my wife is a teacher. The question that arises is whether it is legal for her to have her carry handgun locked up in a safe in her car while she is at school during the day. There is a difference between that and a parent who is only picking up their child and has their carry gun in the car out of view.

I would like to see the law clarified so that it will mean a teacher with a permit can have their firearm locked up in their car when on campus (if this isn't what it already allows). Because, otherwise, this puts my wife in a tough spot. She has a permit, but cannot carry her firearm for protection Monday through Friday because she will be at school. She would not be allowed to be protected on her way in to, or back home from her job because she would not have a legal place to store her firearm while at school. In which case, the law is, or would be a very restrictive law!

Do you know the correct interpretation of "operated" in the law as it exists and as SB1622/HB1806 proposes it? I am very supportive of SB1622/HB1806 and would only like to be sure you understand the concerns of my family in regards to the wording. My wife needs to be able to protect herself while going to and from work.

Thank You.

[Guest Ggun]

You don't operate a car from within a building. It really is that simple.

[Fallguy]

You don't operate a car from within a building. It really is that simple.

No, but you can be the person who did operate it, therefor the operator of that vehicle even though you may not be currently operating it.

[Guest Ggun]

No, but you can be the person who did operate it, therefor the operator of that vehicle even though you may not be currently operating it.

I drive to a school with a loaded handgun which I put under the seat before entering the premises. I walk in and see my wife sitting with adult son. She gets the keys and drives home, gets her gun and drives back, putting her loaded gun in the glove box before entering the premises. Adult son gets the keys, goes to his house and gets his gun, drives back, putting his loaded gun in the center console before entering the premises.

All three operated the car.

Who is the operator of the car for purposes of the statute?

[tt0511]

You don't operate a car from within a building. It really is that simple.

Then it's interesting that my police officer friend didn't think so. And then, as I mentioned before, there very well could be a difference between "operated" and "being operated".

Edited February 10, 2010 by tt0511

[tt0511]

I drive to a school with a loaded handgun which I put under the seat before entering the premises. I walk in and see my wife sitting with adult son. She gets the keys and drives home, gets her gun and drives back, putting her loaded gun in the glove box before entering the premises. Adult son gets the keys, goes to his house and gets his gun, drives back, putting his loaded gun in the center console before entering the premises.

All three operated the car.

Who is the operator of the car for purposes of the statute?

It could either be the most current operator, or the one out of the three to whom the vehicle is registered. Good question. Then again, ...it could go under three separate offenses with each of you being guilty, lol.

Edited February 10, 2010 by tt0511

[Fallguy]

I drive to a school with a loaded handgun which I put under the seat before entering the premises. I walk in and see my wife sitting with adult son. She gets the keys and drives home, gets her gun and drives back, putting her loaded gun in the glove box before entering the premises. Adult son gets the keys, goes to his house and gets his gun, drives back, putting his loaded gun in the center console before entering the premises.

All three operated the car.

Who is the operator of the car for purposes of the statute?

IMO the one with the keys in their posession at the time.

[Guest HexHead]

Tennessee Code Annotated (T.C.A.) 39-17-1309. Subsection © (1) states the following:

© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

I mean, crap, if these plain words are understandable, then pee on it. I'd be making one heck of a logical argument in court if they tried to say it doesn't mean what it says. What? Words don't have any meaning?

Words do have meaning. Except to a liberal.