Vehicle on School Property

[Guest WingedWarrior]

I'm familiar with the following statues:

SCHOOLS �9-17-1309 SECTION C

It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any

firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in

any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus,

grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated

by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or

directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution.

SCHOOL EXCEPTIONS �9-17-1309 SECTION C AND �39-17-1310

It is not an offense...for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm...contained within a

private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult or...any other

person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is

on school property.

-----------

OK, what the heck does it mean (or more importantly, now is it interpreted)? I know a parent can have his/her handgun while dropping or picking up a child, but can a teacher or other staff member legally keep a handgun in his/her vehicle while at work at a elementary, high school, or college?

WW

[Guest AeroEngrSoftDevMBA]

If you read it literally, I'd say it's okay for a teacher as far as the statute goes. A teacher is a non-student adult. So in that sense a teacher wouldn't be breaking the law.

However, it could be against the employee code of conduct put in place by the school. Lot's of employers prohibit their employees from having firearms on company property. The school being company property and the employer being the school district.

I don't know for sure don't take my word for it but that's the way I read it.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

+1

[GLOCKMEISTER]

It's against the employee code. And I have heard some say that the term used was "operated"... which means in the process of operating, which means driving. So some say you cant leave it in the car anyway unattended. Its simply for pick up and drop off exceptions. Any other clarification is welcome!

FYI

[Falcon1]

The affirmative defense applies only to parents dropping off or picking up students. TCA 39-17-1310(4) says:

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A teacher is not entering the property for the sole purpose of delivering or picking up passengers. They are entering the property because they work there. The affirmative defense of 1310 does not apply to teachers.

IANAL, so this is not legal advice, but IMO a teacher or staff member is liable both for termination under school board policy and for prosecution under TCA 39-17-1309( or ©. This would appear to apply to teachers and non-teachers alike.

Edited July 27, 2008 by Falcon1

[Guest 270win]

The way i understand the law (i'm not a lawyer but can read), if you have intent to go armed, then you can only have a handgun in your car when picking up and dropping off students. You can POSSESS a firearm in your car, but cannot have intent to go armed. Possessing IS allowed in the last half of the paragraph of the misdemeanor offense. The way not to have intent to go armed would be to unload your handgun and put it in the trunk, say if you had to do business at a school. The key is unloading and putting in trunk before you get to the school. Quite a hassle.

[dralarms]

As I said on the other thread, I work on school property quite a bit, Mine is locked in a safe in my truck before I get onto school property and not unlocked until I get on public land. I did forget to lock it up once, had to drive around the block just so I could take it off and lock it up (wnet to take off my seat belt and felt it). They would have a fight on their hands if they wanted to search my truck.

And just for the record, I carry OWB and do NOT remove my holster while I'm working. No one has ever said squat. I know my holster has been "made" while on school property, it's just never been mentioned.

I am of the opinon that if you just lay it on the seat you probally will be getting a visit from the boys in blue.

Edited July 28, 2008 by dralarms

[Guest WingedWarrior]

So, what if an unloaded firearm is locked in a case and kept, say, under the seat with the ammo locked in the glovebox??????

[dralarms]

So, what if an unloaded firearm is locked in a case and kept, say, under the seat with the ammo locked in the glovebox??????

As long as you ain't touching it why unload it? I don't understand.

The law clearly states:

SCHOOLS �9-17-1309 SECTION C

It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any

firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in

any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus,

grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated

by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or

directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution.

SCHOOL EXCEPTIONS �9-17-1309 SECTION C AND �39-17-1310

It is not an offense...for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm...contained within a

private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult or...any other

person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is

on school property.

It does not say "unloaded" or "only while dropping off or picking up" Buy a sports safe, bolt it to the floor, open it before getting on school property stick bang stick into said box, close lid.

[strickj]

Well if you read it literally,then couldn't one say they were intending to show it after class using this:

not used solely for instructional

[dralarms]

Well if you read it literally,then couldn't one say they were intending to show it after class using this:

Yea but I think it would have to be an "approved" event.

[dkd83]

My suggestion is to bring this up with the school security personnel IF you are on campus a lot. I teach at three community colleges in E TN and keep may pistol locked in a safe under my seat while on school property. At both Pellissippi and Walter's State security is ok with the practice. THIS IS NOT MY ADVICE OR LEGAL OPINION. ASK FOR YOURSELF TO AVOID CONFUSION!!

[Falcon1]

Here is the problem.

TCA 39-17-1309 says, in part:

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</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td colspan="3" style="padding: 0in;"> (2) A violation of this subsection ( is a Class E felony.<o></o>

</td> <td style="padding: 0in;">

</td> <td style="padding: 0in;">

</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td colspan="5" style="padding: 0in;"> © (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> (2) A violation of this subsection © is a Class B misdemeanor.<o></o>

</td> <td style="padding: 0in;">

</td> <td style="padding: 0in;">

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

The part in italics that is the exception in subsection © gives you immunity against prosecution ONLY under subsection ©, the misdemeanor. It does NOT give you immunity against prosecution under subsection (, the felony. If a prosecutor wanted to carve a notch in his belt, he could try.

TCA 39-17-1310 gives immunity ONLY under these four circumstances:

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</td> <td style="padding: 0in;">

</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> (1) A person hunting during the lawful hunting season on lands owned by any public or private educational institution and designated as open to hunting by the administrator of the educational institution;

</td> <td style="padding: 0in;">

</td> <td rowspan="4" style="padding: 0in;">

</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;">

</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> (2) A person possessing unloaded hunting weapons while transversing the grounds of any public or private educational institution for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting with the intent to hunt on the public or private lands unless the lands of the educational institution are posted prohibiting entry;

</td> <td style="padding: 0in;">

</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> <o></o>

</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> (3) A person possessing guns or knives when conducting or attending “gun and knife shows” and the program has been approved by the administrator of the educational institution; or

</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> <o></o>

</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td style="padding: 0in;"> <o></o>

</td> <td style="padding: 0in;"> (4) A person entering the property for the sole purpose of delivering or picking up passengers and who does not remove, utilize or allow to be removed or utilized any weapon from the vehicle.

</td> <td style="padding: 0in;">

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

To answer the OP's question, TCA 39-17-1310 most certainly does not give protection to a teacher or school staff member for keeping a firearm in their car during the school day, and neither does the exception granted in TCA 39-17-1309© give immunity to prosecution under TCA 39-17-1309( to a teacher or school staff member.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Falcon1

[Guest 270win]

The two are separate offenses. Section B makes it a felony offense to possess a weapon with intent to go armed. Section C makes it a misdemeanor offense to posses (without the element of intending to go armed). You can possess a handgun without intending to go armed, such as by the previous poster putting his handgun in a lockbox. The 4 defenses to prosecution are for both intending to go armed and/or simple possession.

[Falcon1]

The two are separate offenses. Section B makes it a felony offense to possess a weapon with intent to go armed. Section C makes it a misdemeanor offense to posses (without the element of intending to go armed). You can possess a handgun without intending to go armed, such as by the previous poster putting his handgun in a lockbox. The 4 defenses to prosecution are for both intending to go armed and/or simple possession.

Understood, but I once had a Metro police officer tell me that carrying with a Handgun Carry Permit was carrying with intent to go armed; by extension, having one on campus in your vehicle so you can be armed when you leave school at the end of the day could be found to be the same thing.

I searched Lexis on Michie today and found only four places where the phrase "intent to go armed" is listed in TCA--all four are in TCA 39-17. The phrase does not appear to be defined anywhere in TCA, and, if a prosecutor decides to "try a theory," I'm not interested in being the test case.

Bottom line, IMO, the legislature really needs to clarify what they mean in these laws. They are not very well written.

[DaveTN]

Bottom line, IMO, the legislature really needs to clarify what they mean in these laws. They are not very well written.

They are written by lawyers. If they could be easily understood it would cut down on lawyer’s income.

But you are right. The average person should be able to read the law and understand it without having to argue its meaning in court.

The way I read the law is that carrying a gun on school property is illegal unless you are dropping off or picking up kids and even then you can't handle the weapon.

[Mike.357]

carrying a gun on school property is illegal unless you are dropping off or picking up kids and even then you can't handle the weapon.

I agree with this definition. I have picked up my grandson from school. I had a gun on my belt.

A lady opened up the passenger door and climbed aboard. I did not handle the gun.

Other times I have gone into his school. I took the gun out of the holster and put it in the console before driving onto school property.

I see no way I violated law in either scenario

[Guest db99wj]

I agree with this definition. I have picked up my grandson from school. I had a gun on my belt.

A lady opened up the passenger door and climbed aboard. I did not handle the gun.

Other times I have gone into his school. I took the gun out of the holster and put it in the console before driving onto school property.

I see no way I violated law in either scenario

Yep, you are good to go. I carry onto a school just about everyday. I don't "handle" my firearm while I am there. If I go in, I make sure my handgun is secure.

[Guest shortfri]

Kinda off topic, but it's sad that we have to set and discuss the fact that we might get into trouble for carrying our weapons somewhere. Shows how far our rights have come as a country in the last 100 years.

[Guest sorny]

At my HCP class the instruction mentioned that if you're dropping off or picking up a kid and you're carrying with a permit that's fine so I looked into it some more and found some info about possibly carrying at a public college (didn't mention K-12 schools) if you leave it locked in the car. Does anyone know if it applies for k-12's too? I couldn't find anything specifically and I actually work at a K-12 school in TN and although I know I can't carry while I'm IN the building it'd be nice to have my gun in the car so when I leave work I'm not unarmed until I get home. I've always managed being unarmed until I got home but I'd rather not if I had the option as I run a lot of errands after work and sometimes go do work on the side immediately after work and am in some rough places.

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

Here is the actual law on the subject:

39-17-1309. Carrying weapons on school property. —

© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

IANAL, but at first glance it would appear that if you put your gun away (as in not on you, otherwise you would have to handle it) you could leave it in the car while picking up your children.

[Guest ADAM]

LEGALLY NO.

[Fallguy]

The simple answer is, there doesn't appear to be a simple answer. This has been debated quite a bit before.

If you noticed when you looked up the law, there are two violations of having a weapon on school grounds, one is a misdemeanor 39-17-1309© the other a felony 39-17-1309(.

The difference is whether you had an "intend to go armed" or not. The intent to go armed is a felony.

There is an exception for the misdemanor violation if the handgun is in a car operated by you and is not touched. However there isn't any such exception under the felony "intent to go armed" part.

Some say if the gun is loaded that shows an intent to go armed and that if the gun was unloaded you'd be ok. Others feel that you can leave the gun loaded and still be ok.

There are a couple of bills in the legislature now that would make things more clear. HB1806/SB1622 and HB2726/SB3756

Edited February 8, 2010 by Fallguy

[Links2k]

Here is the actual law on the subject:

IANAL, but at first glance it would appear that if you put your gun away (as in not on you, otherwise you would have to handle it) you could leave it in the car while picking up your children.

I also understand that it is legal to carry on campus if you are picking up/dropping off a student, but will not be exiting the car. Am I correct?

Edited February 9, 2010 by LINKS2K

[Guest Muttling]

"Picking up/ dropping off" can have many very defendable definitions.

The day to day is obvious.

If you're grandmother just died and you're going to pick up your kid for the family tragedy, I think your safe. You leave the weapon in the vehicle and walk to the office to have your kid called out of class.

You go to school for a meeting where your kid is in deep doo da for some behavior, it's very gray.

You go to school for a parent-teacher meeting, leave the sidearm at home.

The intent of the law is good. It's meant to not interfere with out 2A rights because we have a kid, but to make sure that only LEO's carry firearms onto a school campus. I think we have a really GOOD law as it applies to ever grade K or below. College is a bit different, but a seperate topic.