Need advice asap.

[Guest s&w37854]

I have my TN hcp.  My great aunt inlaw if you will asked me to protect her from her thieving, temperamental, drug head, abusive, foul mouth grandson.  He has stole her blind, you name it he is the model student for idiot/drugy 101.  

 

She has told him numerous times not to come on the property and he continues.  Her son(the grandsons father) lives with her.  He continues to bring him to the residence after she said not to.  He is just about all mouth but today I confronted him and asked him to leave and he was very idiot like and refused, so we called the non emergency number and the county police got to her house about 15 mins later.  

 

Now if he has been told not to come back and he enters the residence am I protected under law to shoot him?  Not to sound like hey im going to call him to come over just to do so but he keeps saying he can do what ever he wants and she is 85 years old and cant really move around very good and she got out of the hospital just yesterday   

 

Am i covered for I am legally allowed to be there?

 

Bad Bad situation there... she had to deal with this idiot for 5 years of terrorizing her and her house.  Her husband died 2 years ago.  I know I have to be in imminent danger or fear for serious bodily injury.  

[Guest s&w37854]

It sounds like i just want to shoot him... I meant to say if he enters the house as an intruder either day or night.  also i know i can shoot if he attempts to harm me or her of serious bodily harm i.e. baseball bat knife etc...

 

thanks guys

[Oh Shoot]

....Now if he has been told not to come back and he enters the residence am I protected under law to shoot him? ...

 

Here's your problem, and you've already paraphrased part of what I'll say.

 

The only time you can use deadly force to protect yourself or another is when you have a reasonable fear of imminent (immediate) death or serious bodily injury.

 

When someone forcibly enters your home (and they don't have to "break in" for it to be "forcibly") TN "castle law" gives you the presumption that you had that fear.

 

However, that doesn't mean it gives you the absolute right to do it. For example, it doesn't give you the right to off someone who you knew was really not posing the deadly threat mentioned above. And here you have the problem that it is the lady's grandson, who has a long history of being there, etc, so in no way is this going to be seen the same as some stranger appearing in your bedroom in the middle of the night.

 

In short, that "presumption" in the law is just that. It's not a absolute license to execute someone, and the long precedence of his non-violent appearances would not be a factor on your side by a long shot.

 

And always remember, it's not only YOUR call as to whether you had that "reasonable fear".

 

If it were me, I'd try to convince her to get an order of protection ("restraining order") against him if he just won't follow her wishes. Then when he shows again, it's an arrestable offense, etc, and see how that goes.

 

Seriously, I'd try every legal recourse to change the situation.

 

- OS

Edited April 20, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Patton]

If he comes back call 911 and yell, help! Give the address if it is a cell phone. Don't do anymore than you have to force wise. You are not justified shooting him for just being there. If he is breaking and entering you still don't but you would stand the chance of being exhaunerated by the courts if you were in fear of your life.

[Guest s&w37854]

I talked to her about that and so did others from her family is going monday to do that.  well the county is sending someone to her house because she cant travel.  Im sorry if i sounded like i meant to just kill him for what he did.  He kept threating us today, now i know i can shoot just for words...

 

 

Does the Castle cover me anywhere i am as long as carry is permitted and im not committing a crime.  

[Patton]

You have the right to protect yourself and others from eminent bodily harm and that is about it. You can't even shoot him fr threatening to beat your a**. You can't shoot because he took $200 from under granny's pillow. You can only shoot if you, her, or someone is getting ready to suffer severe injury or possible death from him.

In TN, people read too much into the Castle Doctirine. Know you can protect yourself and others and that you do not have an obligation to retreat, all this assuming you have a legal reason to be at the dwelling. Edited April 20, 2013 by Patton

[Oh Shoot]

Does the Castle cover me anywhere i am as long as carry is permitted and im not committing a crime.  

 

Not a lawyer, but where ever you spend the night becomes your domicile, it's often said, but don't take that to the legal bank either. And certainly ain't gonna opine about grayer issues of your just "being" there from time to time, again I'm no lawyer, but doubt that fits the intent of it very well at all.

 

But again -- remember that the Castle Doctrine is not a "permit", just a presumption, and evidence to the contrary can negate it. Your situation is not nearly a clear cut example of how it works.

 

But the most important thing to remember is that in all cases, an investigating officer, then a DA, and perhaps even a jury will be deciding whether your deadly force was justified, whether in that house or just out on the street.

 

And also know, even threatening someone with a gun fits the charge of aggravated assault, so don't think you have a free ride to menace him with your heater either.

 

I'll paste the actual TN code on deadly force tomorrow if nobody else has, I'm off to the rack.

 

- OS

Edited April 20, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Guest Averhoeven]

I'll be honest, this all reads badly. I have a feeling that without evidence of threat (and from what you've said, it doesn't truly sound as if you have one), you aren't even on the thin ice. If you could provide evidence of threat or evidence that action was taken to show that he is not welcome (restraining order) and attempts to the contrary will be treated as threatening, then maybe your grounds would be more solid.

The simple answer is that if you have time to plan the exact event (the who, where, what and how) then there is no threat of imminent danger and may even fall under pre-meditation on your part. This is different than planning, role-playing, etc a scenario like a mugging or societal collapse because it is a scenario which plans for a likely set of answers to aa number of variables which may all change. I would say the ONE exception to this that I can think of off the top of my head is a woman that deals with a raping/abusive partner and even then there is clear evidence for bodily harm.

[Pain103]

If the father who also resides in the house allows the idiot son inside he can legally be there. One resident doesn't override the other even though in situations like this it seems like it should.

I like the suggestion of getting protection order not only protecting her but also you. Any proof that he violates it will result in an arrest.

[DaveTN]

Her son(the grandsons father) lives with her.  He continues to bring him to the residence after she said not to.

You are in his fathers house. The cops may have talked him into leaving, but they can’t legally put him out of the house without a court order to do so.
You can always use deadly force if a reasonable person would believe you or her are in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm. But you can’t shoot a person that has a legal right to be in the house. She needs to get an order of protection.

[NRA]

If it were me, I'd try to convince her to get an order of protection ("restraining order") against him :up:

[Guest Cami]

IMHO You both should get an order of protection if he has made threats against you both.  While it is just a piece of paper, most police will take it seriously as will the courts.  Then if he comes over you just call 911, you can even call before he comes in the residence or if she is in the hospital you give the nurses and administration a copy.  You cannot shot him as stated above unless someone (or yourself) is in immenient danger. 

Edited April 20, 2013 by Cami

[Randall53]

What the hell is wrong with the dad? It sounds to me like she needs an order of protection for BOTH of them.  Any "man" and I use the term loosly here, that would let his son treat his mother that way is a POS, just like the son is. 

[TMF]

He is invited on to the property by a person legally residing there, the father. No different than if your aunt invited him on. That is where the problem begins and ends. If she isn't willing to evict the father (her son) then her problem lies with herself. She is completely in control of her destiny and is unwilling to take the steps to resolve her problem. If you shoot him or she shoots him it will probably result in jail time.

[Guest PapaB]

Here's my advice.

 

Have her get an order of protection from the grandson.

Have her tell her son to stop allowing the grandson on the property or move out himself.

Do not draw your gun on the grandson. If the need arises to protect her or yourself, I believe you've created a problem. If a jury is shown your statements in this thread, you'll have a heck of a time proving you weren't looking for an excuse to go all vigilante on the grandson. You even said;

 

It sounds like i just want to shoot him...

 

now i know i can shoot just for words...

I'm not a lawyer and look at what I just did with your own words. Imagine a lawyer getting you on the stand. "Did you or did you not say those words during an online conversation with a group of shooting enthusiasts? Answer yes or no." "Did you ask those people for advice on how to shoot someone to make it legal? Wasn't that your real intention?"

 

You can bet a good lawyer will use that against you, and tear you to shreds, even in a situation that would've otherwise been a clear case of self defense. Your words will be made to look like you were trying to get permission to shoot the kid.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not suggesting you would shoot the kid unless absolutely neccesary, but I think a clever lawyer could make it look that way if it went to trial. You need to get away from that situation or prepare for things to go very badly for you.

Edited April 20, 2013 by PapaB

[Patton]

Truthfully, TN laws are messed up with order of protection/ restraining order. The only way they hold weight is if an incident(criminal) has already occurred and then one is issued. An example would be if I got into a fight with my son. I would be released on a conditional bond and a order of protection issued. If I went to his house afterwards, I could be arrested.
If I threaten my nephew or even beat him up, not domestic in TN, he can get a restraining order. If I go to his house the police will respond and ask me to leave. That is about all that will happen, unless another incident has occurred. Restraining orders can be issued without an incident occurring, and can be issued outside of domestic, family relationships but they are in my opinion about worthless depending on the county you live in.

Order of protections will came back generally on a check so it can be enforced just about anywhere. If you are holding the paper on a TRO, the police may or may not be able to confirm it on the spot. An arrest may take a while and be served several days later. Edited April 20, 2013 by Patton

[East_TN_Patriot]

A potential problem I see here is that the kid's father also lives there, so it's his place of residence as much as it is your aunt's.  If the father wants to invite the son over, it's a tough situation for the police to force the son to leave.  If she was smart, she'd evict the dad, tell them both to stay off the property, and that would make the situation much easier to deal with.  Unfortunately, this may be one of those situations where she either has to suck it up and do what it takes to fix the situation or suck it up and keep being the victim of the grandson's theft.  It seems this is probably one of those situations where there is no middle ground.  

[Jonnin]

This should be much simpler than it sounds. 

 

If she is on board with getting the guy out of her life, you call the police, explain the situation, get a restraining order.  Alert them that he is a serious problem and ask for a patrol around your home for a couple weeks after that.  Then after that if he breaks in, he is like any other intruder.

 

However if she is not on board and is willing to allow him to carry on as before, you need to butt out and let her suffer.  Sorry, but its a no go in that situation until she wises up.

[Patton]

She, the granny, needs to go to the court house and do an order of protection. You as an extended family member will not be able to get one. Of there have ever been reports of violence, theft or other criminal incidents they need to know, otherwise they will probably not issue the OOP. If he has ever lived there, go ahead and get him evicted as well. A restraining order is a waist of your time and money. It must be filed by an attorney, only last 15 days and the police will not do crap about it. They will say to take him to civil court.

But, since he has been told by the police to not come back he can be arrested for criminal trespass. Edited April 21, 2013 by Patton

[charlessummers]

In our class, we were taught there were three conditions to consider before using our weapons. All three must exist... and if one wasn't there, then we don't reach for our weapon. The bad guy would need to demonstate the intent, the opportunity, and the ability to inflict bodily harm before we would justifiably use our weapon.

 

Anything else... let the police sort out this domestic issue. You are not a cop and your weapon isn't to protect property, only human life and the three conditions listed above is good advise.

[Guest confidence]

You are in danger of being used. You are all set to be the hero with your HCP and all but in fact you may end up being the gullible victim. If this is that big of a deal, then this woman needs to kick out the dad immediately and tell them both they are not allowed on her property. Then she needs to get a restraining order against the grandson. If he shows up, then she calls 911.

 

If there is a high level of immediate danger then she should arm herself. However, is she really ready to shoot her own flesh and blood in self defense? Some people are not. If she is not able to arm herself for whatever reason or not willing to shoot, then at least get her some pepper spray.

 

You are not going to be able to be this woman's 24/7/365 bodyguard. She needs to take action. Think about it. Which one is easier? Taking the bull by the horns and doing the right thing as described above, or passing the buck to you to be her personal security?

 

Just my 2 cents, with the little I know of the situation...

Edited April 24, 2013 by confidence

[Worriedman]

 Restraining orders can be issued without an incident occurring, and can be issued outside of domestic, family relationships but they are in my opinion about worthless depending on the county you live in.
 

 

Fact, not truer words were ever posted on TGO. 

 

My parents have a Restraining Order issued against the next door neighbors, by the Chancery Court Judge, and there are all kind of incidents of them harassing my aged Father and Mother, I have given copies of video to the Sheriff and still nothing is done.  Says he nor his staff can arrest the neighbors if LE personally does not witness the bad acts.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Worriedman

[Patton]

Worriedman, it is to my understanding that a TRO is a a civil contract, even if the aggressor does not sign. With the right lawyer you could take his house if you wanted to. Obviously you have a lawyer or otherwise you would not have the TRO. Contact your lawyer.

[mike243]

If the owner of the property has told somebody to not come back & they do the police can arrest them,having to file a order of protection isnt needed in the short term & has never saved anybody ,sounds like a bad situation to be in & keep the police involved & informed.Prayers sent

[DaveTN]

If the owner of the property has told somebody to not come back & they do the police can arrest them,having to file a order of protection isnt needed in the short term & has never saved anybody ,sounds like a bad situation to be in & keep the police involved & informed.Prayers sent

Doesn’t matter who owns the property. If the son lives there and has given his son (the grandson) permission to be there the cops can’t make him leave. They can arrest him if there is a domestic violence, assault, or some other criminal complaint.

It sucks, I know I have handled many of these complaints. (not in this state however) This is one of the cases where the law is at odds with justice. Grandma needs to legally evict her son, get an order of protection, or both.

I think the domestic violence law is one of the most abused laws that has ever been created. However it could be used to end this very quickly. Has he made any threats?