45ACP. lead cast bullets. Hardness ratings.

[vujade]

Hello Forum,

 

I just finished my first box of Missouri Bullet Company's Lead bullets.  That means I have 500 rounds rounds through my 1911!

 

These are the IDP #1, BRN hardness at 18 labelled for "major power factor".  I'm using 3.8 grains of Bullseye.  Sweet/soft shooting and after some accuracy testing, it's the more consistent of the lot.  (average right under 2 inches at 25 yards (5 shot groups) Smallest groups when I'm my eyes cooperate are under right around an inch like this group here: )  The only thing is that it's a good 2 inches below my point of aim.  There is another sweet spot as far as accuracy when i'm at 5.7 grains of bullseye but it's got a bit more kick to it (although at 25 yards, my group would be right in the center of that target unlike the lighter loads).  (for the record, I shoot rounds in gradual progression of "hotness" watching for over pressure signs (and none so far even at 5.7 grains)

 

I realized that the new Missouri Bullets I bought are labelled "bullseye for Target Velocities" BRN 12.  I did some googling and supposedly, harder bullets/"Major Power" is for hotter loads while software/"Target Velocities" are for lighter loads. 

 

My Question - 3.8 grains of Bullseye is really working well for me.  Do you think the 3.8 grains recipe will continue to work for these softer bullets?  or should I start load development/testing again?   (I know, I know - I'm going to make some and figure it out on my own but if I can learn some someone who has already compared/worked with hard/soft bullets - even better)

 

Edited April 20, 2013 by vujade

[RED333]

Softer lead will slide faster than hard lead, Are you shooting target for competition?

If not keep the load as is for both. Just make sure you know how each load shoots.

So you know how to adjust for sighting.

[vujade]

thanks Red.

 

To make sure I understand correctly - the software lead will therefore have a faster velocity than the harder lead.  (I wish I still had a chronograph).

 

I would then assume that the POI would be closer to the POA (higher).  That would be great.

 

The bullets are drying now (I just put some Lee Alox Bullet lube on them); I should get to loading some tomorrow and trying them this weekend.

[Guest K7Sparky]

Are you getting significant leading?

 

My experience at 45ACP velocities the harder the alloy the more leading I get in most of my barrels, match or factory stock.  Not all, just most.  I generally keep the velocity on the low side which exacerbates the problem.

 

I spent a lot of time trying .451 to .454 and see vary little difference in leading.  Accuracy changes of course.  Mostly 452 which is the high side of the 45ACP spec.

 

Seems like all the commercial sources are hard cast and do not what to bother with softer alloy.  I was told it is more difficult to get bullets with softer alloy.

 

I have the molds and Lee pot, my only excuse for not casting some softer ones to find out if it helps is time and I'm lazy.

[Westwindmike]

I shoot COWW that are water dropped so they are pretty hard. I have no leading problems in my 45 at moderate velocities. I'm shooting them "as cast" and they drop out at .452.

[Dolomite_supafly]

The commercial bullet makers use the harder bullets to make them ship better.

 

The shofter the bullet the better for the most part. There is a point where you get too soft and do get some lead smearing.

 

I would keep the same load and just watch out for leading. I don't think you will have any problems and I suspect you might like them better.

 

I run wheel weights at .452". My barrel slugged at .451"x.448". They are not water dropped.

[Caster]

You cannot push a cast bullet fast enough from a 45 acp to have a need for a really hard lead.

Remember PROPER FIT IS EVERYTHING!!
If your bullet is properly sized so as to ensure a total seal in the bore, and you are using a decent lube to take up any slack in that seal you will not see any leading. I can push a 230g cast lead bullet about as fast as you can safely push it and do it with dead soft lead. Almost pure lead. The bullet I use in my 45 acp falls from the mold .454 and I size it to .453.
As long as it will chamber, you're good. 99.9% of all leading issues stem from improperly fitted bullets. THAT'S the reason commercial cast bullets SUCK.

My 300 blackout slugs around .3089-.309. I size them to .311 because that fills the throat and makes certain I don't get any gas cutting.

[I_Like_Pie]

I cast pretty soft 45 acp....they are range pickup fodder and can't be over 10-12 in hardness.

 

Can mirror caster above in that I have had no leading problems when I have sized them right and used a good beeswax/alox based lube.

 

Same with 38 special and 45/70

Edited April 17, 2013 by I_Like_Pie

[MarkInNashville]

You cannot push a cast bullet fast enough from a 45 acp to have a need for a really hard lead.

Remember PROPER FIT IS EVERYTHING!!
If your bullet is properly sized so as to ensure a total seal in the bore, and you are using a decent lube to take up any slack in that seal you will not see any leading. I can push a 230g cast lead bullet about as fast as you can safely push it and do it with dead soft lead. Almost pure lead. The bullet I use in my 45 acp falls from the mold .454 and I size it to .453.
As long as it will chamber, you're good. 99.9% of all leading issues stem from improperly fitted bullets. THAT'S the reason commercial cast bullets SUCK.

My 300 blackout slugs around .3089-.309. I size them to .311 because that fills the throat and makes certain I don't get any gas cutting.

Not to steal the thread but how can you resize the bullet?

[Caster]

Sizing die. I prefer Lee push though sizers though I usually have to lap them open to the size I want.

[RED333]

Caster beat me to it.

So I will give a link

http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/lube-and-sizing-kit/

[MarkInNashville]

Sizing die. I prefer Lee push though sizers though I usually have to lap them open to the size I want.

 

 

Caster beat me to it.

So I will give a link

http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/lube-and-sizing-kit/

Thanks guys! I'm just showing what I don't know here. I have not thought about casting my own but I have loaded 500 rounds of pre-made rounds - didn't know about any of this stuff. I do want to switch back to lead once I am out of jacked.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I shot a metric ton of cast bullets that were .005" over the bore size without issue. If the loaded round will chamber and the bullet fit into the throat the bore will size the bullet. And honestly those .005" bullets shot as well as anything I have tried.

I used to shoot a ton of MBC bullets and had severe leading problems. Lining with Lee Alox fixed most of it but I still had problems with leading. Once I started shooting a softer and bigger bullet all the leading issues went away.

Make sure to slug your bore. Measure for the largest size then add at least .001". I personally consider .002" the minimum in my guns when shooting my cast bullets.

[MarkInNashville]

Is there a rule of thumb about how hard the bullets should be for differing calibers (say: 9mm, .40 and .45) or does it have to do more with the speed of the bullet? Say, for example, I am going to shoot in competition, as slow as I can (to minimize recoil) but enough to make power factor? And most lead bullets will be pre-coated with alox, wont they? And do you have to use a gas check?

[Dolomite_supafly]

In 9mm, 40 and 45 you will not push them fast enough to need a gas check. And you will not push them fast enough to need a hard alloy. The proper size has more to do with it than hardness. You can use a really hard or really soft bullet without issue if it is the proper size. If the bullet is not the proper size it won't matter how hard or soft the bullet is there is will still be some leading. But if you get too soft, as in pure lead, the bullet can smear whick looks like leading but goes down the entire bore. You will not see this with any commercially available bullets, only those purposely cast with pure lead.

 

If you are getting leading just past the chamber then the bullet is generally too small and/or too hard but most likely too small. If you are getting leading towards the muzzle, but not at the chamber, then the bullet is properly sized but the bullet is going too fast for the alloy and you must either slow it down to harden the bullet.

 

Here is a good read:

http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

 

Also, I have heard several people say that it is a fact of life that shooting cast causes leading in the bore but that is not true. If shooting lead bullets always caused lead in the bore then every 22 in the nation would be miserably inaccurate. I have several 22's that will shoot MOA that have not been cleaned in several thousand rounds. It is just a matter of finding the right combination of alloy and lube. I use wheel weights and Lee Alox and rarely get leading in my pistols. I never get leading in my rifles.

[I_Like_Pie]

for me the soft/hard line in the sand is 1500 fps

Edited April 20, 2013 by I_Like_Pie

[jaysouth]

If you are of a curious nature and have lots of time on your hands, go to www.castboolits.gunloads.com.

 

You will be in danger of being consumed for years about such things as cast boolit hardness and boolit lubes.

Edited April 20, 2013 by jaysouth

[jaysouth]

Is there a rule of thumb about how hard the bullets should be for differing calibers (say: 9mm, .40 and .45) or does it have to do more with the speed of the bullet? Say, for example, I am going to shoot in competition, as slow as I can (to minimize recoil) but enough to make power factor? And most lead bullets will be pre-coated with alox, wont they? And do you have to use a gas check?

As a good rule, commercially cast bullets will be lubed prior to shipment.  They will not normally be gas checked, nor is there need for gas checks at target velocities.  The cast bullets that you buy normally have bevel or flat bases and cannot be gas checked in your shop.  The price for gas checked bullets will be close to the cost of jacketed bullits.

 

The lube used on most commercial bullets will be not be a 'bath' lube like Alox but a paraffin based lube forced into one or more grooves in the bullet during the sizing operations.  It will appear as a red or blue band of wax close to the base of the bullet.  In my opinion, that is not the best lube but is adequate for pistol velocities and speeds the production process.   It is my experience that a bath type of lube like Alox is a superior lube up to velocities of around 2,000 fps.  Howver, it should be noted as observed elsewhere in this thread, that there is a threshold of 1400-1500 fps for plain base bullets above which you will get leading from velocity, not improper sizing.  If I my load approaches that threshold, I apply a gas check to protect the base of the bullet.

Edited April 20, 2013 by jaysouth

[MarkInNashville]

I know that each barrel needs to be slugged to properly determine the correct size bullet to use. I have been meaning to find some fishing weights with which to slug it. I now know that at pistol velocities do not need gas checks and that the hardness isn't terribly important (for paper hole-punching). I had bought moly-coated bullets (which I did like the idea of BUT I have heard horror stories about smoke, which I do not want!) and they seemed to work well.

 

Thanks yall!

[Dolomite_supafly]

Use the bullets you have to slug the bore. I would mark the bullets with a sharpie to make sure you are getting full contact all the way around. Start it in the throat with some sort of oil or grease. Then use a dowel or something else that isn't metal to force or beat it through with a hammer. Once all the way through make sure the bullet is silver all the way around then measure the biggest part. I would add at least .001" but probably .002" to the OD for your ideal bullet.

[MarkInNashville]

Use the bullets you have to slug the bore. I would mark the bullets with a sharpie to make sure you are getting full contact all the way around. Start it in the throat with some sort of oil or grease. Then use a dowel or something else that isn't metal to force or beat it through with a hammer. Once all the way through make sure the bullet is silver all the way around then measure the biggest part. I would add at least .001" but probably .002" to the OD for your ideal bullet.

While that seems like a good idea, I'm afraid that lead is littering the berm at the Stone's River Hunter Education Center.

[jaysouth]

Use the bullets you have to slug the bore. I would mark the bullets with a sharpie to make sure you are getting full contact all the way around. Start it in the throat with some sort of oil or grease. Then use a dowel or something else that isn't metal to force or beat it through with a hammer. Once all the way through make sure the bullet is silver all the way around then measure the biggest part. I would add at least .001" but probably .002" to the OD for your ideal bullet.

I no longer have a supply of 'bullet stoppers' but once upon a time a deceased family member left behind several cases of Depends Guards that the VA sent him.  I contacted the VA.  No, they did not want the back.

 

I had just purchased a 1950 vintage FN Mauser in 30-06.  Rather than beat a piece of lead down the bore to get an accurate bore/groove diameter, I cast some Lee 113 cast bullets made with pure lead.  Then five of these bullets were loaded over 4 grains of bullseye in old 30-06 brass.  Then I fired all five rounds into the end of the case.  Opening the box, I found that each bullet only traveled about 6-8" inches in the Depends and were perfectly intact for accurate measurement.  Each case would adsorb about 50 rounds before the Depends were totally shredded.  

 

If you find a box of Depends to use a a low velocity bullet stop, tape it securely before putting out for the trashmen.  One that I put out came apart in the rain and the wind scattered Depends 'fragments' over several of my neighbor's yard.  I tried to play dumb but that didn't work.  The rest of the day was spent raking up Depends 'shrapnel'.  The was just one of many incidents that left my neighbors scratching their heads and thinkin' "that boy ain't right".

Edited April 23, 2013 by jaysouth

[vujade]

I just wanted to update this thread.  Thank you for everyone's comments.

 

1.  I did some testing last weekend.  There seems to be no difference between the accuracy of the 12 vs 18 BHN 'hardness rating'.   

 

2.  I did add Lee Alox per suggested to the bullets.  That thing got rid of my leading problem (it wasn't sever as I'm not pushing these too fast).  I highly recommend Lee Alox as well now. 

 

3.  I finally 'turned on' the progressive part of my progressive press.  I installed the Powder measure. I then tested groups I invidivually handloaded (measured and weighed each) with the ones I made with the auto powder measure.  Wow.  the same!   (if not a little better).  

 

I was doing 5 round groups but for several targets, I was doing 15-20 round groups in 5 round sets.  (it was too wet to keep going out there to change targets). 

 

Reloading is fun.  I'm going to have to order more supplies now that I can chuck out the rounds so much more quickly now.

[MarkInNashville]

Reloading is fun.  I'm going to have to order more supplies now that I can chuck out the rounds so much more quickly now.

Sorta becomes a sickness, no?

[RED333]

Sorta becomes a sickness, no?

It is a sickness, yes.