NY state has started to take firearms.

[Guest MilitiaMan]

1. You don't ask about cleaning chemicals because every home has them? Well then DON'T ask about our guns, because EVERY home should have them as well. And it's STLL none of your business.

 

2. You ask if I have a pool or creek? Also, no of your business.

 

3. There's a large about of common sense lacking in your argument. Your job may include giving advice, but not unsolicited advice. If I ask you about introducing a new dog into a home with a newborn you may then offer your sound advice. But don't you dare presume that you can just step up and tell me I shouldn't own a dog because it may not be good for the welfare of my child (substitute "dog" for "gun" if you like). That sir, would be your opinion. I do not care for your opinion. You would be, hypothetically, our pediatrician, not our friend.

 

4. I might think I know what's best for me and my child? Wow. Well, to begin with I am a grown man, a veteran, a father and a husband. By the grace of God I am alive and healthy and yes sir, I DO know what's best for myself, my wife and my children. I am the parent. You are the Dr. I am responsible for them 24/7. You are there to offer assistance when the need arises for a prescription medicine to kick a cold etc. And whatever small fraction of parenting knowledge I may have lacked in the very beginning, that it what family is for. You are not a substitute for family.

 

5. While on one hand I respect your years of schooling you may or may not have attending to gain your degrees and I applaud your accomplishments at becoming a doctor, I am disgusted by your apparent willingness to overstep your boundaries and intrude into the private affairs/lives of your patients.

 

 

Am I paranoid? You sir, and those like you, are obvious proof that I am not.

 

 

There are a lot of overly defensive and paranoid people. My job includes preventive medicine and advice as well. This is no different than giving you advice about how to baby proof your home, when to start giving them food, what is developmentally appropriate, etc. My job is NOT to just be reactive to your health, but to help you stay healthy and, shockingly, out of my office as much as possible. If asking a simple question helps me determine whether some advice may or may not be pertinent to help keep your child or you safe, then where is the harm in that? I don't ask about cleaning chemicals, etc because EVERY house has those. I also ask if your home has a pool or a creek near it, is that offensive?
You may think you know everything that is best for you and your child, but i promise you my experience tells me there are frequently things and elements you hadn't considered. Believe it or not, we're just trying to help you do what's best for your child and frankly i don't really care if i offend your paranoid sensibilities in order to do so. I'm not your customer service agent, I'm your doctor and if you have a problem with the care you are receiving because of a single, pertinent question you may go elsewhere. In fact, i welcome you to because if you're unwilling to answer a question about one thing, you're also likely to be uncooperative and non compliant in other areas as well.

Edited April 15, 2013 by MilitiaMan

[JohnC]

There are a lot of overly defensive and paranoid people. My job includes preventive medicine and advice as well. This is no different than giving you advice about how to baby proof your home, when to start giving them food, what is developmentally appropriate, etc. My job is NOT to just be reactive to your health, but to help you stay healthy and, shockingly, out of my office as much as possible. If asking a simple question helps me determine whether some advice may or may not be pertinent to help keep your child or you safe, then where is the harm in that? I don't ask about cleaning chemicals, etc because EVERY house has those. I also ask if your home has a pool or a creek near it, is that offensive?
You may think you know everything that is best for you and your child, but i promise you my experience tells me there are frequently things and elements you hadn't considered. Believe it or not, we're just trying to help you do what's best for your child and frankly i don't really care if i offend your paranoid sensibilities in order to do so. I'm not your customer service agent, I'm your doctor and if you have a problem with the care you are receiving because of a single, pertinent question you may go elsewhere. In fact, i welcome you to because if you're unwilling to answer a question about one thing, you're also likely to be uncooperative and non compliant in other areas as well.

 

Again, what exactly does answering a question about if someone has guns in their home do to help you provide better healthcare for that person? Please explain in detail.

 

I could understand maybe if you were dealing in mental health, but not as, for example, a pediatrician dealing strictly with non-mental health issues.

[Guest MilitiaMan]

You are very close to answering your own question. Seriously (not being sarcastic). The federal government is trying to get as many people, and professions, to be their lackies and inform on the general public. And with that, many professionals (doctors among others) now think it's their responsibility to look past their professional limitations and make judgement calls in areas that have no business and no proficiency in.

 

Again, what exactly does answering a question about if someone has guns in their home do to help you provide better healthcare for that person? Please explain in detail.

 

I could understand maybe if you were dealing in mental health, but not as, for example, a pediatrician dealing strictly with non-mental health issues.

[Guest Averhoeven]

There is a ton of mental health in general pediatrics. Who do you think is the first to see most kids who have issues?
If you tell me you do have guns in the home, I ask what conversation you have had with your children, what you do as far as teaching them, if they're young enough what you do to keep it out of their hands when unsupervised, etc. YOU may know these things and consider them basic common sense, but the average parent education level is on par with an 8th grader so i can make ZERO assumptions about peoples understanding of anything. You keep thinking I'm telling people not to have guns in the home, but clearly that's not the case and I've openly sent out pro gun rights paperwork when organizational legislation gets sent out that contradicts them. I am not over-stepping my bounds at all. In fact, TNCare requires documentation of anticipatory guidance at every well child check. It is simply advice, usually with researched evidence behind it, designed purely to help. In my mind, i can give you generic anticipatory guidance or i can give you something that is more applicable to you and therefore has more value and benefit.
Your argument is that we should not try to teach anything at all to our patients about what is and isn't good for them? Do you truly believe everything can be learned from grandparents, etc and that they and their anecdotal evidence is better than large population based studies? There are tons of old wives tales and traditions that get passed down that are dangerous. That is why, despite the fact that there is strong evidence that sleeping on their back and not sleeping in bed with parents is a good thing, we still have >100 infants die in TN every year from those 2 things. Look, I'm just trying to help people, give them educated information and sometimes a different perspective. If you want to get your panties in a big bunch about something that you assume I'm saying feel free, but you've really blown this completely out of proportion. Its a question designed to help me give you a little relevant advice to keep your healthy and safe. I will continue to ask if there are guns or pools, if you put sunblock on your kid, whether you read to them and all the other anticipatory guidance we may offer.

[Guest MilitiaMan]

There is a ton of mental health in general pediatrics. Who do you think is the first to see most kids who have issues?
If you tell me you do have guns in the home, I ask what conversation you have had with your children (NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS), what you do as far as teaching them (NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS) , if they're young enough what you do to keep it out of their hands when unsupervised (NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS) , etc. YOU may know these things and consider them basic common sense, but the average parent education level is on par with an 8th grader so i can make ZERO assumptions about peoples understanding of anything. You keep thinking I'm telling people not to have guns in the home, but clearly that's not the case and I've openly sent out pro gun rights paperwork when organizational legislation gets sent out that contradicts them. I am not over-stepping my bounds at all. In fact, TNCare requires documentation of anticipatory guidance at every well child check. It is simply advice, usually with researched evidence behind it, designed purely to help. In my mind, i can give you generic anticipatory guidance or i can give you something that is more applicable to you and therefore has more value and benefit.
Your argument is that we should not try to teach anything at all to our patients about what is and isn't good for them? Do you truly believe everything can be learned from grandparents, etc and that they and their anecdotal evidence is better than large population based studies? There are tons of old wives tales and traditions that get passed down that are dangerous. That is why, despite the fact that there is strong evidence that sleeping on their back and not sleeping in bed with parents is a good thing, we still have >100 infants die in TN every year from those 2 things. Look, I'm just trying to help people, give them educated information and sometimes a different perspective. If you want to get your panties in a big bunch about something that you assume I'm saying feel free, but you've really blown this completely out of proportion. Its a question designed to help me give you a little relevant advice to keep your healthy and safe. I will continue to ask if there are guns or pools, if you put sunblock on your kid, whether you read to them and all the other anticipatory guidance we may offer.

 

I'm not saying you're telling people not to have guns. I'm saying that your asking about guns in the home is none of your business, regardless of what the government or TNCare tells you to ask. You fail to get what I'm saying. You are the physician. I am the parent. Do you get advice on how to raise your children from your mailman? No. And I won't take advice on how to raise mine for you. You, as are many physicians in this country, are overstepping your boundries and it's apparent you don't like when intelligent parents call you on it.

 

Thankfully I have a college education and am not the stereotypical parent your described with an 8th grade education, huh? Not that there's anything wrong with anyone who chose that path.

 

It's one thing if a parent comes to you with a severely sunburned child saying, "duh, doc i'm dupid. I dun know how my kid got the burned on him!" And you then explaining how sunblock may have prevented the sunburn. That's good "doctoring" imo. Sunburn, by the way, will not kill the child. I spent many sunburned summers playing baseball and I'm not dead. It's totally another if I come in for an annual checkup and you begin to tell me about the temperature outside and why/how I should use sunblock. I'm probably going to tell you, wait for it, to mind your own business.

 

 

Clearly we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Edited April 15, 2013 by MilitiaMan

[mikegideon]

The plot thickens, folks. NOT mistaken identity...

 

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/04/15/lewis-attorney-says-gun-confiscation-no-error/

[Guest MilitiaMan]

You're just paranoid.

 

:rofl:

The plot thickens, folks. NOT mistaken identity...

 

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/04/15/lewis-attorney-says-gun-confiscation-no-error/

[Guest Averhoeven]

Yes, it's clear to new we have a serious disconnect about what ideal primary care is. Primary care should be preventive medicine, not reactionary. The only way that can occur is through giving you advice which has been shown to keep you healthier. I would hope that you listen to and follow it since there is good evidence behind what i choose to tell people and it kind of falls under the reflecting that you respect the training, experience and education i have, but you don't have to. That's the nature of advice.
Ultimately, you seem to think of your pediatrician as your child"s repairman, but they should also help with regular maintenance (like an oil change) to help keep them from having problems too.
All that said, clearly we aren't going to agree and you seem to be intent on misrepresenting what i say. Therefore, I'm going to consider this conversation done and excessive in length given its off topic nature in this thread.

[mikegideon]

You're just paranoid.

 

:rofl:

 

Maybe not. Looks like the guy's attorney is going after them, I hope this whole thing blows up in Cummo's face. All the unwashed masses need to realize he's a complete douchebag.

[Guest MilitiaMan]

I couldn't agree more.

 

Maybe not. Looks like the guy's attorney is going after them, I hope this whole thing blows up in Cummo's face. All the unwashed masses need to realize he's a complete douchebag.

[JohnC]

There is a ton of mental health in general pediatrics. Who do you think is the first to see most kids who have issues?
If you tell me you do have guns in the home, I ask what conversation you have had with your children, what you do as far as teaching them, if they're young enough what you do to keep it out of their hands when unsupervised, etc. YOU may know these things and consider them basic common sense, but the average parent education level is on par with an 8th grader so i can make ZERO assumptions about peoples understanding of anything. You keep thinking I'm telling people not to have guns in the home, but clearly that's not the case and I've openly sent out pro gun rights paperwork when organizational legislation gets sent out that contradicts them. I am not over-stepping my bounds at all. In fact, TNCare requires documentation of anticipatory guidance at every well child check. It is simply advice, usually with researched evidence behind it, designed purely to help. In my mind, i can give you generic anticipatory guidance or i can give you something that is more applicable to you and therefore has more value and benefit.
Your argument is that we should not try to teach anything at all to our patients about what is and isn't good for them? Do you truly believe everything can be learned from grandparents, etc and that they and their anecdotal evidence is better than large population based studies? There are tons of old wives tales and traditions that get passed down that are dangerous. That is why, despite the fact that there is strong evidence that sleeping on their back and not sleeping in bed with parents is a good thing, we still have >100 infants die in TN every year from those 2 things. Look, I'm just trying to help people, give them educated information and sometimes a different perspective. If you want to get your panties in a big bunch about something that you assume I'm saying feel free, but you've really blown this completely out of proportion. Its a question designed to help me give you a little relevant advice to keep your healthy and safe. I will continue to ask if there are guns or pools, if you put sunblock on your kid, whether you read to them and all the other anticipatory guidance we may offer.

 

So let's say I'm an 8th grade educated father with a child who has the flu. You ask me "do you have any weapons in your home?" I answer yes. Do you hand me a brochure on gun safety, or verbally educate me? Who else sees the answer, TNCare? Is it recorded in the medical file? What if you suspect the father or child of being mentally unstable or ill, what is your duty or responsibility with this information? Do you turn it over to mental health services, or?

 

I'm just trying to get an honest answer here on how this all plays out. Call us paranoid if you want, but NY and CA are already confiscating guns.

 

Edit: I guess I can verify some of this after you answer these questions with my sister who works in Mental Health here in TN.

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/04/09/a-form-of-gun-confiscation-has-reportedly-begun-in-new-york-state-heres-the-justification-being-used/

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/19/california-gun-confiscation_n_2717809.html

Edited April 15, 2013 by JohnC

[GoneBallistic]

 I don't ask about cleaning chemicals, etc because EVERY house has those.

This statement of your argument makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. If EVERY house has those, seems to me you should concentrate more on chemicals than guns since exposure is so much greater.

[mikegideon]

Yes, it's clear to new we have a serious disconnect about what ideal primary care is. Primary care should be preventive medicine, not reactionary. The only way that can occur is through giving you advice which has been shown to keep you healthier. I would hope that you listen to and follow it since there is good evidence behind what i choose to tell people and it kind of falls under the reflecting that you respect the training, experience and education i have, but you don't have to. That's the nature of advice.
Ultimately, you seem to think of your pediatrician as your child"s repairman, but they should also help with regular maintenance (like an oil change) to help keep them from having problems too.
All that said, clearly we aren't going to agree and you seem to be intent on misrepresenting what i say. Therefore, I'm going to consider this conversation done and excessive in length given its off topic nature in this thread.

 

I, for one, do understand that you're trying to help. And yes, we're paranoid. That comes from being under attack for decades. If you understand that, you can frame your approach a little differently. That paranoia is justified, and maybe should be dealt with before you start asking those questions. Mental health is going to become a weapon against gun owners. The medical profession should fight that tooth and nail, because it WILL force people to avoid treatment.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Primary care can't just be about preventative care, but it should be part of the scheme. You can't prevent

everything that happens.

[Guest Averhoeven]

This is the last post I'm going to make on this topic because I just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions which could result in distrust in pediatricians and ultimately result in children possibly not receiving the care they need and deserve.

This statement of your argument makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. If EVERY house has those, seems to me you should concentrate more on chemicals than guns since exposure is so much greater.

 

Is that really what you think I meant? In context, I was saying I don't ask about cleaning chemicals because they are always there. Instead I just address that issue since it is clearly relevant advice to tell families that it's safer to have their chemicals out of their 2 year old's reach.

Primary care can't just be about preventative care, but it should be part of the scheme. You can't prevent

everything that happens.

Correct, but that is exactly what a well child exam is all about which is what I was discussing. If you come in for a clear illness like the flu that visit has a wholly different dynamic and purpose, hence different questions.

 

I, for one, do understand that you're trying to help. And yes, we're paranoid. That comes from being under attack for decades. If you understand that, you can frame your approach a little differently. That paranoia is justified, and maybe should be dealt with before you start asking those questions. Mental health is going to become a weapon against gun owners. The medical profession should fight that tooth and nail, because it WILL force people to avoid treatment.

Considering where I'm posting and what I've said before, don't you think my goal is probably NOT to infringe on your's and my firearm rights? Y'all jumped down my throat for simply trying to explain to you the actual intent of those questions and why they are not the malicious things you interpreted them as. I get just as pissed at every gun control news post as you do, I promise. I get it extra hard since the AAP (the Pediatrics governing membership society) is fairly pro gun control legislation. I go out of my way and attempt to educate fellow pediatricians. I gave a lecture on guns, safety and children to about 150 of them a few months ago and sent the article I posted in this forum under the topic header "By far the best pro-gun article I've read" to the Vanderbilt Children's email list-serve in response to someone attempting to gain support for their legislative interests with a "survey" they wanted to present to state legislature. Too many people were going to fill that out uneducated and simply jump on the bandwagon and I was unhappy with that circumstance.  

My ultimate goal is to keep kids safe and present to you information which will help you do this. This information is worthless if it is not at least somewhat tailored to you, your beliefs and your parenting style.

 

 

So let's say I'm an 8th grade educated father with a child who has the flu. You ask me "do you have any weapons in your home?" I answer yes. Do you hand me a brochure on gun safety, or verbally educate me? Who else sees the answer, TNCare? Is it recorded in the medical file? What if you suspect the father or child of being mentally unstable or ill, what is your duty or responsibility with this information? Do you turn it over to mental health services, or?

 

I'm just trying to get an honest answer here on how this all plays out. Call us paranoid if you want, but NY and CA are already confiscating guns.

 

Edit: I guess I can verify some of this after you answer these questions with my sister who works in Mental Health here in TN.

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/04/09/a-form-of-gun-confiscation-has-reportedly-begun-in-new-york-state-heres-the-justification-being-used/

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/19/california-gun-confiscation_n_2717809.html

 

I verbally educate you. My saved note has my standard, applicable to everyone anticipatory guidance (such as chemicals, diet habits, etc that are appropriate for the age of your child). I don't have the time or energy to type up every element of my conversation with every patient. While my goal is to assess the safety of every child in every home, you have to do something fairly convincing and probable to be reported otherwise the only thing that happens is the child ends up missing out on care because trust is lost and DCS wouldn't have a case. If you tell me you pistol whip your kid do I report it? Yes, same as shaking or not feeding your baby. If you're an asshole who tells me you have a gun or you seem off to me do I report it? No, that's an opinion without any evidence. Not to mention I likely don't know enough about you to make any sort of a good assessment.

 

Long story short, this was all blown fairly out of proportion and a lot of hyperbole seemed to be tacked on when I was simply trying to mention that those are a few of the MANY fairly standard intake questions we ask in order to help guide you in your parenting and keep your children as safe and healthy as I can.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Averhoeven

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I am not jumping down your throat. My kids both had their preventative visits. That's been years ago, and I

think it is probably still going on, isn't it? Nothing wrong with doing that, at all. I was only saying there are many

other reasons to go to a doctor's office, other than a well check up. I didn't know anything about my high

blood pressure until I had some symptoms show up. It was through the roof when it was discovered. It is

what it is, and it got under control. Of course, I'm happy with my traditional health care and that is soon to be

a thing of the past.

 

As far as the doctor asking about guns in my possession, it is absolutely none of their business, regarding

whether or not I have children in my home, and I really don't see how a doctor could educate me on the safety

and efficacy of my firearms. That's one subject I think I got him trumped on. No pamphlet from the American

Pediatric Society or anything from some organization that knows nothing about the subject can teach me about

a subject I know better than they do.

So, I don't understand why the question should be raised, to begin with, except for some political goal.

[GoneBallistic]

Is that really what you think I meant? In context, I was saying I don't ask about cleaning chemicals because they are always there. Instead I just address that issue since it is clearly relevant advice to tell families that it's safer to have their chemicals out of their 2 year old's reach.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm just going off what you said. What I took away from your previous post is that you did not address chemicals at all, and that makes no sense to your "it's all about the children's safety" argument.

[Guest KiloFive]

What you tell me goes in your medical record. If another doc asked me during my own visit if I had guns, I would say, "no".

Now, ask yourself, "Why does Dr.KiloFive not make official medical statements to his own doctor regarding firearm ownership?" Or, better yet, "Why does Dr.KiloFive lie to his doc and say that he owns NO firearms? And why did he instruct his children to lie?"

Think about it.




God & Tribe

[Wingshooter]

I have 3 small kids. If their pediatrician ever asks me if I have guns in the house, I don't know if I could resist responding with some smart aleck questions of my own, like: do you have any scalpels or sample pills at your home exposed to your children, doc? Honestly, I would down play the question with a "no", get through the visit, and find a new doctor ASAP. However, I would be steaming at that line of questioning.

I take my kids to the doctor for medical advice and treatment. I am the parent, and questions that pry into my legal home are non of any doctor's, lawyer's, politician's, or any other person's business. A friend engaged in conversation is certainly different, but doctor visit... Naw. BTW, I do agree with what one poster said... Asking if a person has guns is vastly different than stating, "if you have guns in the house... Yada, Yada, Yada."

I truly respect the knowledge, advice and treatment of the vast majority of doctors I have visited. It's a tough field and requires a lot of skill and knowledge; however, the question about guns just doesn't fit, IMO. Edited April 16, 2013 by Batman

[Guest ThePunisher]

Clearly the Doc has been indoctrinated by the progressive liberal BS that is evident at most of our universities and public schools, and now medical schools. The doctors before long will probably start receiving bonuses from the government to report families with guns so the commies can rid the country of all gun ownership. They know that the government will ultimately be buttering their bread when all the insurance companies are put out of business. Edited April 16, 2013 by ThePunisher

[Wingshooter]

Maybe not. Looks like the guy's attorney is going after them, I hope this whole thing blows up in Cummo's face. All the unwashed masses need to realize he's a complete douchebag.

I hope he gets exposed for what he really is. Nothing would be sweater than witnessing an awakening of the sleeping voters.