Liberty Ammunition UltraDefense -- weird stuff

[Guest confidence]

Picked up some 9mm Liberty Ammunition civilian UltraDefense ammo today. Going to test it on ballistic gel and will try to post pics/results later.

 

Here's what they claim:

 

-2000 FPS

-450 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy

-Will not penetrate the Level IIIA vest (unlike their LEO ammo)

-Wound cavity of 5 inches in width and up to 12 inches in depth

-Lead free

 

As you can see, this redefines the hollow point concept. There is nothing in there! Just a shell! Bizarre...

 

 

[bikertrash2001]

I was thinking that had to be a light bullet to travel that fast and it is. 50g! It is like it's just a flying piece of shrapnel. 

[Guest confidence]

Yeah, here's another link with more info. I just held this round in one hand and a Remington Golden Saber in the other and there is a noticeable difference in weight. The former feels like a toy!

[Guest chipslinger]

Looks like the Aguila IQ ammo which is a very deep and light weight aluminum hollow point projectile.

[Dolomite_supafly]

The IQ ammo is an a lightweight alloy that breaks apart upon impact.

 

Magsafe or Magtech used to make a bullet that was a jacket with a polymer filling. The velocity on those was well over 2,000 fps for both 9mm and 45ACP. They also sold a polymer bullet that had lead shot in the mix.

 

Here are some other intersting ammo along those same lines.

http://www.rbcd.net/Products/Personal_Defense/

I have contacted them about buying just the bullets for reloading but they only sell loaded ammunition.

[Poor_Dog]

The IQ ammo is an a lightweight alloy that breaks apart upon impact.

 

Magsafe or Magtech used to make a bullet that was a jacket with a polymer filling. The velocity on those was well over 2,000 fps for both 9mm and 45ACP. They also sold a polymer bullet that had lead shot in the mix.

 

Here are some other intersting ammo along those same lines.

http://www.rbcd.net/Products/Personal_Defense/

I have contacted them about buying just the bullets for reloading but they only sell loaded ammunition.

 

Seems like it would crush the jacket when you pressed the bullet

[DaveTN]

Velocity is only one point on my ballistics triangle. The other two are Mass and Surface Area. Physics/ballistics tells me that this would be as worthless as frangible ammo for self-defense.

[Guest confidence]

Velocity is only one point on my ballistics triangle. The other two are Mass and Surface Area. Physics/ballistics tells me that this would be as worthless as frangible ammo for self-defense.

 

Well, I'm not an expert but I like to play around with ballistic gel and I'm waiting for the gel results before I make a judgement call, personally. Anybody have any specific requests for my testing? I will likely throw a round into my 5" x 6" x 16" slab from about 8 foot away and then slice away on video. Let me know if you want me to try something specifically and I may be able to oblige.

[Smith]

Looks like a lighter version of the CorBon DPX. Personally I'd take the DPX for the higher mass in the same form factor. Not sure that the 600 fps difference at the muzzle would make that much difference in a handgun.

[Guest confidence]

Looks like a lighter version of the CorBon DPX. Personally I'd take the DPX for the higher mass in the same form factor. Not sure that the 600 fps difference at the muzzle would make that much difference in a handgun.

 

CorBon Self-Defense JHP looks pretty cool. I may have to give it a try sometime. It just so happens that the velocity issue you brought up was addressed from that CorBon weblink as well. Here is an excerpt:

 

 

ANALYSIS OF VELOCITY:
The faster a bullet is traveling, the more energy is created. Energy developed at the muzzle must be transferred or "dumped" into the target to be effective. Energy transfer is aided by bullet expansion. The higher the velocity, the more rapidly the expansion, the more effectively the energy is expended into the target. This explosive expansion dumps the available energy quickly, creating tremendous shocking power, and causes immediate STOPPING POWER!

[peejman]

Well, I'm not an expert but I like to play around with ballistic gel and I'm waiting for the gel results before I make a judgement call, personally. Anybody have any specific requests for my testing? I will likely throw a round into my 5" x 6" x 16" slab from about 8 foot away and then slice away on video. Let me know if you want me to try something specifically and I may be able to oblige.

 

 

Use a chronograph.  2000 ft/s seems awfully fast.

 

I'd be curious about penetration into various things... phone books, boards, sheetrock,... the usual stuff.  I'm also curious how the mostly hollow bullet performs, especially since they claim its not supposed to expand like a traditional hollow point.  My guess is that it works fine at close range but would have horrible ballistics much past 100 yds.  Seems like the poor aerodynamics and low mass would cause it to slow down very, very quickly. 

 

Come to think of it...  If I were selling a new technology like this, seems like I'd already have done all this stuff and would gladly provide evidence as such.  Seems odd that they don't. 

[BigK]

Use a chronograph.  2000 ft/s seems awfully fast.

 

I'd be curious about penetration into various things... phone books, boards, sheetrock,... the usual stuff.  I'm also curious how the mostly hollow bullet performs, especially since they claim its not supposed to expand like a traditional hollow point.  My guess is that it works fine at close range but would have horrible ballistics much past 100 yds.  Seems like the poor aerodynamics and low mass would cause it to slow down very, very quickly. 

 

Come to think of it...  If I were selling a new technology like this, seems like I'd already have done all this stuff and would gladly provide evidence as such.  Seems odd that they don't. 

 

You have mighty high expectations for 9mm SD ammo. Methinks you'd be hard pressed to "need" to take a 100yd shot in self-defense. :)

[Guest confidence]

You have mighty high expectations for 9mm SD ammo. Methinks you'd be hard pressed to "need" to take a 100yd shot in self-defense. :)

 

Yeah, I consider this potentially close-range self/home defense ammo. Testing on sheetrock and whatnot sounds good. I don't have a chronograph. Are they expensive?

[1gewehr]

The Aguila IQ ammo was a zinc alloy IIRC.  It did not fragment, but instead was designed to have four petals peel out to drastically increase the cutting and damaging ability of the bullet.  The testing we did about 6-7 years ago showed really excellent results in ballistic gel and a horse carcass.  Hitting bone caused the bullet to jump in weird directions.

 

The IQ ammo in .45acp was amazingly damaging!  But the light bullet loses velocity quickly.  Past about 50 yards, we did not see proper expansion with either the .45 or 9mm IQ ammo.

[BigK]

Yeah, I consider this potentially close-range self/home defense ammo. Testing on sheetrock and whatnot sounds good. I don't have a chronograph. Are they expensive?

 

you can pick up a [url="http://www.midwayusa.com/product/531741/shooting-chrony-f1-chronograph"]cheap chrony[/url] at MidwayUSA for under $80 (but it won't work indoors in dim lighting and fluorescent lights give the cheap ones fits, even with light difussers).

[peejman]

You have mighty high expectations for 9mm SD ammo. Methinks you'd be hard pressed to "need" to take a 100yd shot in self-defense. :)

 

 

True and I'm fine with that.  But there's lots of people with pistol caliber carbines that might be shooting out that far and not understand what it does at longer ranges.  A quick surf of their web site indicates they have something different for rifle cartridges, but I didn't take the time to read it. 

[dunndw]

I found this last night

http://www.guns.com/2013/02/20/liberty-ammunition-halo-point-civil-defense-40-sw-gel-test-video/

[Dolomite_supafly]

Doubling the mass only doubles the energy but doubling the velocity increases the energy by a factor of 4. That energy is what creates the permanent and the temporary wound cavities.

 

One of the best, IMHO, handgun rounds is a 7.62x25 Tokarev. If there was a modern bullet used and a modern design chambered in the caliber I think it would be very popular. It is the extra velocity that makes it so great. It is the only pistol caliber, or was, that easily defeated kevlar helmets and soft body armor. And it was developed 70+ years ago. It has a velocity of 1,450+ fps out of a pistol and less recoil than the average 9mm. The bottleneck case helps reliability also.

[turkeydad]

Doubling the mass only doubles the energy but doubling the velocity increases the energy by a factor of 4. That energy is what creates the permanent and the temporary wound cavities.

 

One of the best, IMHO, handgun rounds is a 7.62x25 Tokarev. If there was a modern bullet used and a modern design chambered in the caliber I think it would be very popular. It is the extra velocity that makes it so great. It is the only pistol caliber, or was, that easily defeated kevlar helmets and soft body armor. And it was developed 70+ years ago. It has a velocity of 1,450+ fps out of a pistol and less recoil than the average 9mm. The bottleneck case helps reliability also.

 

 

I have often thought this as well. . I am by no means an ammuniton effecianado but Ive always though the old Tok round with a "modern" hollowpoint would be devastating