Liability question

[Guest kj4gxu]

Thanks all for the response and discussion, as I'd said in the opening post, I already know how I'd handle the situation and that is this.

 

Call 911 immediately, give only the facts necessary for responding units to do their job.

IF IT IS SAFE TO DO SO render medical aid to the attacker, this is if and only if the threat is 100% neutralized.  If I still feel threatened in any way I'm leaving, I will let the police know where to meet me but I will not stick around if there's any chance of a continuing threat.

 

For me calling 911 is obvious, I can understand the reluctance of some to render aid, my reasoning for doing so is this.

1. I am trained to render advanced levels of first aid including for gun shot wounds

2. I almost always have my first responder kit near me.  It's in my car or if hiking or partaking in outdoor activities it may be on my back. This kit contains the supplies I need to render first aid to this attacker

3. If the question as to why I rendered first aid ever comes up in court my answer will center around the fact that my goal was never to kill the attacker but to stop the attack, once the threat was neutralized I would hope my training and experience will kick in and allow me to begin rendering aid.

 

I hope that I never have to draw my gun in self defense, if I do I hope I don't have to fire it (But I will if I have to), If I fire it and the attacker dies, it is because they forced me into a situation where I was fighting for my life.  If they don't die, but the threat is neutralized I just can't see myself standing by and watching them die when I know that I have the training and materials necessary to intervene.

 

My goal will never be to kill someone, but that doesn't mean I won't take any and all necessary actions to protect myself and my family.

Edited April 2, 2013 by kj4gxu

[Jonnin]

Heh, I can already tell you my call.

 

me) I was at XYZ and attacked, I had to shoot to defend my life.  He fell and I ran away and am at ABC now. 

911) what is the status of the victim?

me) I am breathing hard. 

911) no the guy you shot

me) No clue, I got away so he could not attack me anymore....

911) is he alive?

me) I do not know, try sending an ambulance to XYZ like I said to begin with.

 

I am not sticking around to render aid.  Attacker falls, I am moving out to get to safety in case he had buddies. 

[LawVol]

I've seen a couple comments about how anything you say to the police or the 911 operator can be used against you.  

 

Remember that the same applies to comments on an internet forum... especially those that show you've thoroughly rehearsed, before the event ever happened, what you've told the police or 911.

 

just an observation.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Well, I don't know anyone that's a lawyer, but if I had one I'd want one that enoys the shooting sports I think.

I'd think that if you shot someone even in self defense an attempted to render aid, it could go south pretty quick if they died in the process. It could be said you didn't want them to survive and did something to make sure they didn't.....ahhh. Maybe I've been watching too much CSI.....

 

 

So my question is would rendering aid be seen as:
1. what a nice guy, he's helping out someone that attacked and tried to kill him
2. he's admitting he shouldn't have shot the attacker because now he's trying save the attacker's life, and is thus an admission that he shouldn't have shot him

The way I see it, if I shoot someone to "stop the threat," the threat may or may not be laying dead in the street. If the threat has stopped (attacker down), but is not dead, it would be in my best interest (since trained to respond to this situation) to offer at least a superficial amount of aid. But Im worried if that would be perceived as an unconscious admission of "I shouldn't have shot the guy." Especially in a civil lawsuit. I'm interested to hear y'all's thoughts and opinions.

OK, who is ultimately making this decision?  Ultimately it is a jury of normal people like you and the people you go to church, football games, PTA meetings, etc. with.  What do you think a normal person serving on a jury would think?  If you were on the jury, what would YOU think? Even if you choose not to administer first aid, something that might be quite reasonable given the circumstances, most certainly any significant delay in calling 911 will most certainly be viewed negatively.  Would I render aid?  Perhaps, but I have 10 years of law enforcement training in my pocket.

[East_TN_Patriot]

I've seen a couple comments about how anything you say to the police or the 911 operator can be used against you.  

 

Remember that the same applies to comments on an internet forum... especially those that show you've thoroughly rehearsed, before the event ever happened, what you've told the police or 911.

 

just an observation.

 

OK, and it's also commonly discussed in defensive firearms classes, law enforcement classes, and gun-related publications.  Heck, when I was in law enforcement, we were trained to always yell "STOP RESISTING!" and/or "DROP YOUR WEAPON!" and practiced it regularly.  The instructors told us that even if we didn't have time to say it before a defensive shooting, scream it afterwards so that witnesses will remember the words even if they don't remember the order of events.  At the end of the day, all that matters is whether your words match what the physical evidence says.  You seem to suggest that discussion of this topic is evidence of deception.  Quite the opposite.  We are discussing the proper way to handle the immediate aftermath of a self-defense shooting including what amount of information to give to the 911 operator and the responding officer.

We have a constitutional right to remain silent and to have an attorney present during a police interrogation as part of a criminal investigation, which is exactly what a homicide investigation is.  It is the responsibility of the police and the prosecutor to prove you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and we have no obligation to assist them in this endeavor.  Don't lie, don't give the police or 911 operator any more information than is absolutely necessary without a lawyer, and be sure your shooting was absolutely an action of last-resort.  If you do those three things, you should be fine.

[Wingshooter]

I would not wait to call 911 either. Maybe take a few seconds to catch my breath and compose my thoughts, but waiting 15-20 minutes would seem suspicious to me.

As far as rendering aid... My first priority will be to ensure my family is safe. There may be other unseen attackers or the one on the ground may still be a possible threat. I agree with the poster that said calling 911 is the best way for me to render aid. If I can help, I will; but I would have to feel certain that there are no remaining threats.

[Guest carter]

I think this is a classic situation where "less is more" wins out (with regards to what to say).
As a fellow medical professional, I sympathize with your concern that taking 20 mins could certainly lead to death, so personally, I wouldn't wait to call. I don't know what the legal expectation is though for me to render help to the attacker. Maybe someone with more legal experience could clarify on this? I understand that Good Samaritan is likely to protect me in case of error while rendering the assistance, but don't know that it compels me to offer aid to someone I shot. I most likely would follow directions given to me by 911 operator.

Edited to correct the incorrect auto-correct.

if you are not licensed in a medical profession that states you have a duty to act, you don't have to do anything, the good samaritan law protects the people that make a choice to help, it does not require you to render aid... BUT if they find out you are an EMT of any sort or a nurse and you didn't render aid, that will more than likely be used against you for failing your duty to act.

[Guest RedLights&Sirens]

if you are not licensed in a medical profession that states you have a duty to act, you don't have to do anything, the good samaritan law protects the people that make a choice to help, it does not require you to render aid... BUT if they find out you are an EMT of any sort or a nurse and you didn't render aid, that will more than likely be used against you for failing your duty to act.

Maybe... maybe not. EMT 101, Scene Safety.

If you used your gun to defend yourself and/or others then the scene is NOT safe. You have no legal obligation to provide care to anyone when your life is in danger. You can not help someone when you are dead.

Now regarding care to the person you shot. Forget about it. Help yourself first. Make sure you are not hurt, adrenaline may cause injuries to go unnoticed for a period of time. Check yourself, family/freinds and nearby by-standers if you feel concerned for others. Speaking of adrenaline, you dont know what is going on with your attacker. It is possible they may try and hurt you when you get close enough to help them. You shot because you feared for your life. If you help them then that fear must have gone out the window.

Most importantly remember this, fire and EMS will not show up on scene of a known shooting or any other act of violence until the police have arrived and deemed it safe. They will likley be staged a block or two away. An average 4-8 minute response time may double until medical care arrives.

[TMF]

If you just shot someone there is a reason for it. Dropping security and getting within hand-to-hand distance from a person who was threatening your life only moments before is an extremely high level of stupid.

[LawVol]

OK, and it's also commonly discussed in defensive firearms classes, law enforcement classes, and gun-related publications.  Heck, when I was in law enforcement, we were trained to always yell "STOP RESISTING!" and/or "DROP YOUR WEAPON!" and practiced it regularly.  The instructors told us that even if we didn't have time to say it before a defensive shooting, scream it afterwards so that witnesses will remember the words even if they don't remember the order of events.  At the end of the day, all that matters is whether your words match what the physical evidence says.  You seem to suggest that discussion of this topic is evidence of deception.  Quite the opposite.  We are discussing the proper way to handle the immediate aftermath of a self-defense shooting including what amount of information to give to the 911 operator and the responding officer.

We have a constitutional right to remain silent and to have an attorney present during a police interrogation as part of a criminal investigation, which is exactly what a homicide investigation is.  It is the responsibility of the police and the prosecutor to prove you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and we have no obligation to assist them in this endeavor.  Don't lie, don't give the police or 911 operator any more information than is absolutely necessary without a lawyer, and be sure your shooting was absolutely an action of last-resort.  If you do those three things, you should be fine.

 

I'm not saying you guys are right or wrong discussing this.  All I'm saying is that if you find yourself at a deposition or possibly on the witness stand testifying about a self-defense shooting, you can expect comments made on an internet forum to be brought up.  Whether that's important to the outcome of the case is up to the jury.   I tend to agree with the advice in your last two sentences.  

 

This discussion also sort of reminds me of the Raul Rodriguez case.  His use of all the self-defense buzzwords while on the phone with 911 was actually used against him.  The prosecution also brought up that Rodriguez told a neighbor that if you're ever involved in a shooting, tell the authorities that you feared for your life and were standing your ground.  He got 40 years.  

[Guest kj4gxu]

Maybe... maybe not. EMT 101, Scene Safety.

If you used your gun to defend yourself and/or others then the scene is NOT safe. You have no legal obligation to provide care to anyone when your life is in danger. You can not help someone when you are dead.

Now regarding care to the person you shot. Forget about it. Help yourself first. Make sure you are not hurt, adrenaline may cause injuries to go unnoticed for a period of time. Check yourself, family/freinds and nearby by-standers if you feel concerned for others. Speaking of adrenaline, you dont know what is going on with your attacker. It is possible they may try and hurt you when you get close enough to help them. You shot because you feared for your life. If you help them then that fear must have gone out the window.

Most importantly remember this, fire and EMS will not show up on scene of a known shooting or any other act of violence until the police have arrived and deemed it safe. They will likley be staged a block or two away. An average 4-8 minute response time may double until medical care arrives.

My understanding of TN's duty to act laws are that unless you are on-duty you have no duty to act.  I'll admit that I don't know the exact statutes so that may be incorrect, but I don't think it comes into play for the reasons you state above.  Duty to act does not trump responder safety.  Perhaps someone know which TCA statutes specifically define duty to act for EMS personnel in TN and could share, in the mean time I'm off to google it.

[Guest kj4gxu]

If you just shot someone there is a reason for it. Dropping security and getting within hand-to-hand distance from a person who was threatening your life only moments before is an extremely high level of stupid.

There's definite wisdom in that statement and it looks at it from a point that I wasn't.  I was thinking, he's down and staying down but until you get close enough you can't really tell that and by then it could be too late.  

Thanks for the input.

[Guest kj4gxu]

TCA 68-140-511 section A, paragraph 6 http://statutes.laws.com/tennessee/title-68/chapter-140/part-5/68-140-511 and an attorney generals opinion http://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2001/op/op5.pdf

 

It looks like I was correct.  Simply being present does not assign a duty to act to you.  If you are on duty and dispatched to a scene OR if you are off duty but choose to assume patient care you have a duty to act, but until you have assumed the duty, then you are not bound by duty to act.

 

 

 

My understanding of TN's duty to act laws are that unless you are on-duty you have no duty to act.  I'll admit that I don't know the exact statutes so that may be incorrect, but I don't think it comes into play for the reasons you state above.  Duty to act does not trump responder safety.  Perhaps someone know which TCA statutes specifically define duty to act for EMS personnel in TN and could share, in the mean time I'm off to google it.

[Guest RedLights&Sirens]

... If you are on duty and dispatched to a scene OR if you are off duty but choose to assume patient care you have a duty to act...

Yes this is true but getting back to safety, specifically this scenario of a shooting if you make patient contact/initiate care and the scene becomes unsafe at any time (this includes on duty medical responders) you may leave the scene (and patient if nesecarry) without fear of being charged for abandonment. Could the family still press charges? In todays sue happy world absoloutley but it will not likley go anywhere.

You can legaly "abandon" your patient if you fear for the immediate safety of yourself and partner. This could be any number of scenarios from a scene that police lose control of or even a car catching fire with an entrapped person that can not be removed via rapid extrication. Doing this can be pretty common with a call for something innocent like a respritory destress (which police may not be dispatched to) that becomes or already was a domestic violence issue after you start care. Edited April 3, 2013 by RedLights&Sirens

[ttocswob]

Once "I am in fear for my life," I will remain so until that threat is secured by law enforcement. I don't expect the threat to morph into Little Bo Perp just because he may be wounded. And I'm not getting close enough to find out.

[East_TN_Patriot]

I'm not saying you guys are right or wrong discussing this.  All I'm saying is that if you find yourself at a deposition or possibly on the witness stand testifying about a self-defense shooting, you can expect comments made on an internet forum to be brought up.  Whether that's important to the outcome of the case is up to the jury.   I tend to agree with the advice in your last two sentences.  
 
This discussion also sort of reminds me of the Raul Rodriguez case.  His use of all the self-defense buzzwords while on the phone with 911 was actually used against him.  The prosecution also brought up that Rodriguez told a neighbor that if you're ever involved in a shooting, tell the authorities that you feared for your life and were standing your ground.  He got 40 years.  

Ok, fair enough. I didn't read your first statement that way.

[Makiaveli]

I'm not saying you guys are right or wrong discussing this.  All I'm saying is that if you find yourself at a deposition or possibly on the witness stand testifying about a self-defense shooting, you can expect comments made on an internet forum to be brought up.  Whether that's important to the outcome of the case is up to the jury.   I tend to agree with the advice in your last two sentences.  

 

This discussion also sort of reminds me of the Raul Rodriguez case.  His use of all the self-defense buzzwords while on the phone with 911 was actually used against him.  The prosecution also brought up that Rodriguez told a neighbor that if you're ever involved in a shooting, tell the authorities that you feared for your life and were standing your ground.  He got 40 years.  

 

In regards to Rodriguez, I doubt that is all the evidence they had against him. I know you aren't quoting, but if you tell a neighbor that, then you are saying if you commit murder, then just lie and say etc.

 

Realistically, if you are in the "bad side" of town, at 2am with no reasonable explanation of why you are there and are involved in a self-defense shooting, then yes I would expect you to be subject to a serious investigation, up to and including interviewing neighbors. But 2pm at Wally World with the wife and kids? I think the initial perception and thus the ensuing investigation will be much less intense.

 

Now this isn't to imply that coming on here and spouting off macho BS won't come back to bite you in the butt.

[Kopis]

I'm not saying you guys are right or wrong discussing this. All I'm saying is that if you find yourself at a deposition or possibly on the witness stand testifying about a self-defense shooting, you can expect comments made on an internet forum to be brought up. Whether that's important to the outcome of the case is up to the jury. I tend to agree with the advice in your last two sentences.

I can personally attest to this. I was involved in a car accident in college. I struck a lady who was dead stopped on the interstate at night to look at a fatality accident on the opposite side. Her story was that I was doing over 100mph in my 90hp diesel jetta. Anyway I had posted in my TDI forum that I hit some dumb/ retarded lady stopped on the interstate. I forget exactly what I said. Anyway first day on the stand, her attorney asks me if I am username blah and hands me some printouts. He used what u said to attack my character because I had referenced her as "retarted"

[Guest carter]

Maybe... maybe not. EMT 101, Scene Safety.

If you used your gun to defend yourself and/or others then the scene is NOT safe. You have no legal obligation to provide care to anyone when your life is in danger. You can not help someone when you are dead.

Now regarding care to the person you shot. Forget about it. Help yourself first. Make sure you are not hurt, adrenaline may cause injuries to go unnoticed for a period of time. Check yourself, family/freinds and nearby by-standers if you feel concerned for others. Speaking of adrenaline, you dont know what is going on with your attacker. It is possible they may try and hurt you when you get close enough to help them. You shot because you feared for your life. If you help them then that fear must have gone out the window.

Most importantly remember this, fire and EMS will not show up on scene of a known shooting or any other act of violence until the police have arrived and deemed it safe. They will likley be staged a block or two away. An average 4-8 minute response time may double until medical care arrives.

that's true... BUT do you know how evil lawyers are? they will dig up anything they can on you

1. BSI

2. Scene Safe

3. Mechanism of injury/ Nature of illness 

4. Number of patients

5. Do I need any help (additional personnel )

6. Consider C-spine

7. General impression 

[Guest RedLights&Sirens]

that's true... BUT do you know how evil lawyers are? they will dig up anything they can on you
1. BSI
2. Scene Safe
3. Mechanism of injury/ Nature of illness
4. Number of patients
5. Do I need any help (additional personnel )
6. Consider C-spine
7. General impression

In my eleven year career I have testified at one trial involving a child hit by a truck. The driver of the truck who was at fault was trying to sue the kids father for emotional trauma, so yea Ill refrain from my feelings on some lawyers.

As far as if I fear them turning on me? Goodluck. In my career I have two slaps on the wrist and nothing more, one for calling out a partner who was grossly incompitent and the other for (politley) telling a head nurse at a skilled nursing facility to FOAD after nearly killing a patient. Neither of these disciplinary "actions" are on file. I hope the day never comes where I have to choose my life over a patient but good luck to any lawyer trying to come down on me.