AR 15 Home defense

[jsgabbbb]

The strange thing is 9 & 40 did no damage to my steel plate at 10 yards. The 233 however, obliterated the steel plate at 100 yards.
Go figure. Guess I'm learning about ballistics with trial & error.
How can law enforcement trust such a round indoors?

[jsgabbbb]

Any law enforcement here that can tell us what ammo is used in a service AR?

[slow ss]

I live in the country with no one close to me so that being said if I gotta usea beta mag somebody gonna get it!

[Dolomite_supafly]

There are several reasons not to have a 5.56 AR for home defense. First is the concussion. AR's are LOUD and when you get inside a confined space it only magnifies it. Even with hearing protection the concussive blast can disorient you. Second is, no matter the round, it will penetrate walls and do not make the assumption that you will not miss the bad guy. And no matter how righteous the shoot is you can still be held accountable for that round that went through your walls and injured someone. Another consideration is the muzzle flash which can be blinding at night or in low light conditions.

 

As far as overpenetration goes most calibers that are considered useful for self defense are going to over penetrate if you miss your target.

 

In my SD shotgun I have things loaded in this order.
1. 00 buck
2. 00 buck
3. #4 steel shot
4. 00 buck
5. #4 steel shot
6. Slug
7. Slug
All of them are high velocity, high brass loads. No reduced recoil/velocity stuff. The slugs are for the longer distances. Because I am likely to encounter problems at shorter ranges that is why I use shot with slugs being the last. I have nobody to worry about hitting in the direction I will be shooting. If I did I would load my gun up with a much smaller shot size.

 

Even birdshot can be very devastating at SD ranges.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3RVvL9ZjU&feature=player_detailpage

Dolomite

[QuietDan]

Nightstand gun for inside the house work is Springer M1911 with .45 hollowpoints.

 

HCP gun is Springer EMP with 9mm hollowpoints.

 

Outside the house work is SR 556.

[1gewehr]

There is 5.56mm ammo and then there is 5.56mm ammo.  Your cartridge selection will make a huge difference in penetration of walls and doors.  Generally speaking, the lighter the bullet, the more chance it will blow up in the first thing it hits.  The Hornady 55gr TAP cartridge also has flash suppressant in the powder which helps a LOT when shooting in low-light conditions.  It was designed to reduce over-penetration.

Military 62gr on the other hand was designed specifically to penetrate barriers.

 

I keep a 5.56mm AR carbine for home defense.  It's what my muscle memory knows best, and suddenly awake in the middle of the night, that's important.  I've fired M-16s indoors before  (on full-auto, too).  Afterwards your ears will ring.  But you really don't notice it while shooting.

 

We each have to make choices based on our individual situations, skills, and experiences.  There is no perfect answer that works for everyone (except Joe Biden's double-barrel 12ga  :rofl: ). 

[gjohnsoniv]

That makes me want to take it to the range.  Been neglecting her for a few years.

 

 

That makes me want to take it to the range.  Been neglecting her for a few years.

It's also cheaper to shoot than .22 right now and that's good enough reason for me.

[trevorst]

In a home invasion the last thing I am worried about is my hearing protection, I too have fired an AR indoors and I wouldn't doubt I have some degree of hearing loss from it. All weapons fired indoors without hearing protection are going to cause hearing damage. It's no worse than a .357 revolver though. I have worked as a corpsman in the field and as a medical professional for over 20 years. I have seen lots of collateral damage from shotguns over the years, and yes it's usually not life threatening collateral damage, but its still a hazard. A shotgun loaded with buck shot will penetrate greater than an AR with defense rounds, and depending on the range and if its choked at all they are going to be pretty spread out.

Properly loaded the AR is far and away the best home defense weapon in my opinion, if you own one and only use it for a range toy you should do some research and see if its of value for your situation.

Size
Fire power
Adaptability
Range
Accuracy

What is not to love?

[Dolomite_supafly]

A single round of 9 pellet 00 buck at 1,325 fps has almost double the energy a single 55 grain 5.56 at 3,100 fps, 2,097 fpe vs 1,173 fpe. 12 pellet 00 buck has even more with 2,796 fpe. Overpenetration is going to be an issue with either if you miss the target. With a smaller shot size you can minimize the amount of overpenetration with a shotgun.

 

I suspect most of the shotgun wounds you seen were from smaller shot, not 00 buck or slugs. Smaller shot was what was used by the Aurora shooter and that is why there was a high hit percentage but low kill percentage. Had he used #4 or larger shot the outcome would have been a lot worse.

 

Chokes do not spread the shot, they shrink the pattern sizes. And a 9 or 12 pellet 00 buck will easily land inside a target at house distances if hit center mass even without a choke. Shot does not go wildly all over the place once they leave the barrel, it takes distance for it to spread. And it really doesn't matter the shot size the pattern size will be very similar between them. There is even accuracy enhanced buck shot loads that extends the range at which they are accurate substantially.

 

Our go to gun for a very long time was a AR chambered in 9mm. It gave the same performance as a 357 magnum because of the longer barrel but the report was substantially reduced compared to a 9mm handgun or a 5.56 AR. But it too would overpenetrate if the target was missed.

 

I am a huge fan of AR's but it would be far down on my list for a home defense gun, at least in 5.56.

 

This is very telling:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

All were shot into sheetrock walls. The 5.56, 30 carbine and various 00 buck loads made it through but not the #8. And see my video above if you think #8 is not an effective SD round at typical house distances.

 

Here is another he did showing the penetration of the 5.56.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

[trevorst]

The problem with theboxoftruth article is that it's using FMJ ammo, fortunately at my house I am not governed by the Geneva Convention and limited to FMJ bullets.  An AR with FMJ bullets is a very poor choice for defense.

 

Most of the collateral shotgun wounds that I have seen over the years have been from 4 shot, 6 shot or bird shot, I dont remember a buck shot but thats not saying that it doesnt happen of course.  Most shotgun wounds are devastating to see and anything center mass, close range usually has a bad outcome.  A shotgun would be my second choice in my situation mostly because of size, I firmly believe pistol grips are for mall ninjas and my 870 with a stock and 18.5" barrel is longer than my AR.  It's more difficult for me to move through my house and hallways with a shotgun than with my AR (it is very doable though..).  I also like the fact of having 30rounds and a fast reload (not so much for the fact that I am a poor shot with an AR as much as I like the idea of having the rounds available, cover fire, etc.., more is truly better), contrary to popular belief it is possible to miss with a shotgun also.  The end result will be the same, neither one are something you want to be on the other end of.

 

Good discussion, I like the idea of having options, this conversation really makes me want to apply for a SBR lol.

[RobertNashville]

Police agencies around the country have been shifting from the ubiquitous 12GA to .223 for a while now and mostly because of the advantages of the cartridge as well as fewer (note I didn't say "no") concerns about over penetration.  I've seen lots of tests of various firearms and calibers in simulated home situations and the 5.56/.223 seems to be the best combination of effectiveness and the least likely to over penetrate (especially with the HD ammo made specifically for that purpose).

 

Someone mentioned the noise earlier...a valid concern but then again, ANY firearm fired in the enclosed space of a home is going to be LOUD; that's one of the reasons I keep a cheep pair of electronic ear protectors by my bed next to my shotgun and/or rifle (the sound gathering is ALSO and advantage of these ear protection devices)...of course, I may not have time to put them on but they are there in case I do have time. Otherwise, I'd rather lose some hearing and still be alive.

 

Another consideration is that juries tend to see (per one of our fine attorneys here) use of an AR as an over reaction and may consider your claim of self-defense as lacking...something to think about.

 

For me, I have a handgun close by in every room but I have either a 12ga or one of my 5.56 rifles in my bedroom...I'll grab whichever I can get to first depending on where I am and where the bad guy is. 

[reed1285]

Ok did anybody else catch hickok's video on this? He put it up yesterday, perfect timing for this thread.

I agree with hickok on 99% of the stuff he says, but i can not agree with him on this new video, double barrel shotgun vs. ar for home defense. He strongly advocates the ar over the shotgun. He makes some good points, but one thing he says is that the 5.56 bullet is not likely to go through a lot of walls because it was designed to break into smaller pieces on impact? You guys watch it and let me know your opinion on it.

And my opinion is in a home defense situation, im grabbing my xdm 40 first, loaded up with 16 hi shoks in the mag, and a streamlight mounted under the barrel. If not that then im reaching for a shotgun.

[leftyk82]

Ok did anybody else catch hickok's video on this? He put it up yesterday, perfect timing for this thread.

I agree with hickok on 99% of the stuff he says, but i can not agree with him on this new video, double barrel shotgun vs. ar for home defense. He strongly advocates the ar over the shotgun. He makes some good points, but one thing he says is that the 5.56 bullet is not likely to go through a lot of walls because it was designed to break into smaller pieces on impact? You guys watch it and let me know your opinion on it.

And my opinion is in a home defense situation, im grabbing my xdm 40 first, loaded up with 16 hi shoks in the mag, and a streamlight mounted under the barrel. If not that then im reaching for a shotgun.

I saw the vid. I think his point was visualizing the argument Biden claims, that double barreled shotguns are a better home defense option.

[glowdotGlock]

I used to keep my AR close to the bed but began thinking about practicality. I live in the country with no neighbors for a ways but I still keep the AR in the safe. My bedside gun is a Glock 22 with 3 mags of Federal HST 180 grn. With a weapon light. I keep the 870 Marine Magnum next to the headboard loaded with Hornady TAP 00 buck

[Guest LittleBear571]

My bedside gun is a 45 loaded with 10 rounds of Federal premium Guard Dog ammo, designed for home defense and to cause a lot of damage but not over penetrate. They work as advertised/ designed.

Also got a shotgun like everyone else in tennessee lol....


But I live in the woods and also have an ar loaded up too. Its a good deterrent

[dlm37015]

mine is an m16 with a sure fire can on it.1 / 14 twist barrel loaded with barnes 65 grain ammo .it will not shoot very good over 100 yards but up close its not bad

[enfield]

Never mind, I'm tired of this argument too.

Edited March 26, 2013 by enfield

[Jonnin]

Ok did anybody else catch hickok's video on this? He put it up yesterday, perfect timing for this thread.

I agree with hickok on 99% of the stuff he says, but i can not agree with him on this new video, double barrel shotgun vs. ar for home defense. He strongly advocates the ar over the shotgun. He makes some good points, but one thing he says is that the 5.56 bullet is not likely to go through a lot of walls because it was designed to break into smaller pieces on impact? You guys watch it and let me know your opinion on it.

And my opinion is in a home defense situation, im grabbing my xdm 40 first, loaded up with 16 hi shoks in the mag, and a streamlight mounted under the barrel. If not that then im reaching for a shotgun.

 

Who, besides biden who recommends blasting without looking at the victim, is using a double?  Mine holds 10+1.  Most hold at least 6.   I do not care for the AR for my home but given a choice between an AR and a 2 shot or a blunderbuss, the AR wins THAT debate handily. 

[alwaysonjohn]

my advice is to try and practice clearing your home with an AR or shotgun or pistol.  Unless its an SBR/SBS or a pistol you are going to feel weird entering a room with the muzzle sticking so far out.  On the other hand with a pistol you can pull it in against your chest and still point the muzzle forward.  Once you enter completely push your arms back out.  I personally feel more comfortable clearing a home with a pistol.  Now if we are talking about outside the home, then i would take an AR over a shotgun or pistol all day long.

 

In the end (over)penetration is the least of my concerns.  I don't want to project my entrance into each room which is why i believe practice/tactics and the right equipment matters.  Other issues to worry about is over-lighting, leaving armed weapons and accessing a weapon, not being able to secure areas while you clear the rest of the house, and PRACTICING good tactics.

 

Most people don't have the money for a SBR but for clearing a house they are perfect.  As a matter of fact a good 45 SBR is on my personal wish list!

[orientalexpress]

Generally speaking if you can afford an ar you can afford an Sbr.

[Romad7]

For me my AR is for varmints (2 or 4 legged) outside the house, external home defense. CQB tactics favor short weapons anyway so a handgun (or SMG) would be preferred for working a house. G17 and other various handguns are my preference indoors.

You could use frangible ammo if you want to use an AR indoors. I don't have experience with that indoors but its supposed to break apart on impact, more or less.

Haven't read all posts but wanted to come back and correct this, frangible 5.56 doesn't seem to be any better for over penetration in a building. Even if your walls are 1/4" steel!

Here's the video: http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=BPwRU1wTRFQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DBPwRU1wTRFQ

The old rule of "know your target and what is beyond it" seems to be the only really answer here... Edited March 30, 2013 by Romad7

[orientalexpress]

Haven't read all posts but wanted to come back and correct this, frangible 5.56 doesn't seem to be any better for over penetration in a building. Even if your walls are 1/4" steel!

Here's the video: http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=BPwRU1wTRFQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DBPwRU1wTRFQ

The old rule of "know your target and what is beyond it" seems to be the only really answer here...

The fragible ammo I've seen in person explodes into a cloud of dust at very close ranges. It definitely won't penetrate steel and hardly penetrates plywood. That being said I'd never use it for home defense as its marketed as "training ammo" and wasn't very reliable.

[Kopis]

I shoot a lot of steel targets. The target in question is most definitely Not "hardened" steel. Virtually any steel 3/8" or more is fine for any caliber pistol whether it be 44mag or 22. If you want to shoot it with a rifle, you must have AR 500 hardness steel. It isn't cheap either. A 12" target is usually around $50+. Even with that, an XM855 will put a small dent but nothing like the holes in those pics. PMCs won't do much if anything to an AR 500 target even at closer range.

I won't get into the argument of what gun is best for home defense. You need to do your own research and decide what you are comfortable with. But I can say with certainty that I would not want to fire an AR without frangible ammo inside my home, especially I had a family. Edited April 1, 2013 by Kopis

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Ok did anybody else catch hickok's video on this? He put it up yesterday, perfect timing for this thread.

I agree with hickok on 99% of the stuff he says, but i can not agree with him on this new video, double barrel shotgun vs. ar for home defense. He strongly advocates the ar over the shotgun. He makes some good points, but one thing he says is that the 5.56 bullet is not likely to go through a lot of walls because it was designed to break into smaller pieces on impact? You guys watch it and let me know your opinion on it.

And my opinion is in a home defense situation, im grabbing my xdm 40 first, loaded up with 16 hi shoks in the mag, and a streamlight mounted under the barrel. If not that then im reaching for a shotgun.

Yeh, I did. He demonstrated very well that the double barreled shotgun is outgunned by just about anything.

The pattern on 00 Buck is nothing until you reach out, and the AR, with the additional capacity gives one more

of a chance with multiple perps. He wasn't trying to write the book, just explain what Biden misses, or neglects

to desire a homeowner to know.

 

Grab the gun to get to the rifle is what I think. If you have a pump shotgun you have a couple more rounds,

but 30 gives you a little more edge. I agree with him. My G30 is always nearby, and the AR is somewhere

nearby.

 

But I really couldn't care less about over penetration. I'm more concerned with me living. I know where the good

guys are in my house. It's the bad guys I might not and if an over penetration accidently hits them, so be it.

 

Like Hickok45 said, you have to aim a shotgun, loaded with buckshot in it, just like a rifle, to hit someone. The rest

is Hollywood. But, to each his own.

[dlm37015]

i dont see too good any more so i like the m16 platform