ARs on Gunbroker Beginning to Fall (fast)

[Guest semiautots]

If the mandatory background check law gets through the senate and the house, it might be able to track back to you.  Example, you buy a Glock 17 and resell for a profit.  That buyer sells it to a gang banger and it gets used in a murder.  With the background check law, there will be a trace on every sale.  Then the question might be asked "Why, sir, did you buy this gun and resell it in 4 days?"

 

This is why the NRA is against this legislation.

[runco]

Food for thought (the last post, the man purchased 14 guns over a period of time and then sold them, sounded reaonsable), all stories had a ATF informant :

 

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-01-23/news/1997023071_1_atf-mitchem-federal-firearms-license

 

http://www.hoddelaw.com/CM/Publications-Articles/Man-Pleads-Guilty-Dealing-Guns-Without-Federal-License.asp

 

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/sc-man-pleads-guilty-illegal-gun-sales-nc-0

 

http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2013/02/garland-man-convicted-of-selling-at-least-135-pistols-and-shotguns-without-a-license.html/

 

http://heraldbanner.com/topnews/x1633476950/Rowlett-man-convicted-of-selling-firearms-without-a-license

 

http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2013/01/pennsauken_man_admits_selling.html

[R1100R]

On the last post

Food for thought (the last post, the man purchased 14 guns over a period of time and then sold them, sounded reaonsable), all stories had a ATF informant :

 

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-01-23/news/1997023071_1_atf-mitchem-federal-firearms-license

 

http://www.hoddelaw.com/CM/Publications-Articles/Man-Pleads-Guilty-Dealing-Guns-Without-Federal-License.asp

 

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/sc-man-pleads-guilty-illegal-gun-sales-nc-0

 

http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2013/02/garland-man-convicted-of-selling-at-least-135-pistols-and-shotguns-without-a-license.html/

 

http://heraldbanner.com/topnews/x1633476950/Rowlett-man-convicted-of-selling-firearms-without-a-license

 

http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2013/01/pennsauken_man_admits_selling.html

 

 

 And the last post/article he tranfered  to a convicted felon and obtain a illegal drivers license. and took a drill to remove serial numbers.

Edited March 25, 2013 by R1100R

[Magiccarpetrides]

Yeah, that drilling off serial numbers and selling to a known felon changes the game quite a bit.

[Oh Shoot]

How about "Can you purchase a firearm with the intent to re-sell under the occasional sales section of the GCA without having a FFL?"

 

My whole point is you need a FFL if you are buying firearms with the intent to resell them. If you are buying them then reselling them that is not an issue unless you intended to sell them before you bought them.

 

Dolomite

 

It's quite gray, because the statute is gray.

 

It's illegal to be "engaged in the business" of selling firearms without a license. So far so clear.

 

However, as R1100R has sort of quoted,  "in the business"  is defined in 18 USC § 921:

 

" ... as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A) [seller], a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;"

 

Since it is specifically lawful to sell "for the enhancement of a personal collection", seems clear it is kosher under the USC to "intend" to make a "profit" on a given firearm, so that you could put the money toward something else for your firearm collection, or indeed, any collection or hobby at all. Given that, it would also be kosher to "intend to profit" from any number of firearms, as long as that "intent" is also to further a collection, rather than putting the money in your general fund ("livelihood").

 

So I don't think it's accurate to say that one is necessarily in violation for intending to make or actually making a profit on any given firearm, or even any number of firearms, regardless of how long or short the time of possession. Demonstrating  the "principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms" is clearly the prohibition and also of course the burden of proof on the prosecution, the word "livelihood" being key. And sure, we all know of folks who fit that mold.

 

However, it's equally true that if you go so far as to be charged, it's well documented that facing the federales will likely require you to prove yourself innocent more than them proving you guilty -- and even assuming you do succeed in that, you will have still lost much.

 

- OS

Edited March 25, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[atlas3025]

If you sell it for profit I assume you need to report that as taxable income, too.  Bonus points!  ATF and IRS on your ass!

[Guest Brutnus]

lets get back to the point. Tears. Let them fall like the rain.

[Magiccarpetrides]

Speaking of "breaking the law" you people up on that pedastal...how many times have you voluntarily paid TN sales tax on those guns you bought out of state and shipped to your FFL...or stuff you bought on Amazon for that matter...thats what I thought, shutup ;-D

[TripleDigitRide]

Springtime in Tennessee isn't looking much like spring, here in Crossville. Snow up on the plateau.

[Magiccarpetrides]

TDR, good detour...its sunny and snowing here in Sevierville, down in knoxville it was almost a whiteout, but nothings stickin

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Not really, that's pretty much it.

 

I know just a thing or two about sales and the market place. :)  I personally sell $14 million dollars of year of products and services (for the last 27 years) and have sat through more sales and marketing training than I care. That being said, every business model we have looked at still indicates it's the buyer. The emotion, yes, may be a factor but it still comes down to the price the customer is willing to pay at that point in time. 

Keep thinking that if you wish, but, if it wasn't for a certain event and certain politicians doing what they do, it would

have never happened. I know just a few things about sales, like several hundred or so others on this forum. Cheeky,

kinda bothersome, also. What happened here is true in most sales. Nothing new to write home about. Your government

threw a knuckle ball and you didn't see it?

 

It's the same emotion that Bloomberg keeps on trying to manipulate people with. The same emotion the media tries to

use to sway our thoughts and opinions daily by putting car wrecks and massacres on the news. The same emotions

carefully chosen words used by the media and political parties with their talking points can sometimes affect.

 

This gun panic, which some are profiting by was artificially created, just like the dot com bubble, the housing crash

and several financial events that were inspired by laws from years ago and from events the media won't let us move on

from. These events have similarities to sales tactics, but are completely different. Writing them off as the usual thing

will possibly satisfy you, but it wasn't inspired by realistic capitalistic sales tactics.

 

But you must completely misunderstand me. I never said there was anything wrong with making money, even on this

panic. I was only addressing the motivation for the event. However, it is interesting how people misunderstand a simple

word like greed and apply it along these lines and confuse it with profits. Two completely different things.

 

I hope you are on a commission. :D

[runco]

I have noticed several "Colt" ARs on Armslist have taken some deep dives this week.  The fall locally has begun!

[reed1285]

I have noticed several "Colt" ARs on Armslist have taken some deep dives this week.  The fall locally has begun!

 

ive noticed it locally as well. Those $600 ar's that people have listed for $1000 and up are sitting alot longer. Especially on those facebook gun trader pages. Each bump is resulting in $100 price decrease

[Guest carter]

Erik please explain how me putting my ar15 on gunbroker and someone paying me market price created a problem.

I'm sorry but gunbroker is not the "market". last time i checked retail stores are the market...and yes some did jack up there prices... even Wal-Mart, but not as much at pvt sellers did... If i can go to Wal-Mart and buy an AR-15 for 900-1000 bucks... that's market price, if i can buy a stripped lower for 70 bucks...that's market price... not what pvt sellers are charging for them. Taking advantage of a disaster marking up prices is gouging plain and simple. 

[Magiccarpetrides]

Carter market = average and last time I checked the average price for an item on gunbroker was based on what people were actually willing to pay. If an item is in high demand and can't readily be found then that's not gouging that's a buyer being impatient and wanting to have the newest toy while willing to pay a premium to do so. No one felt bad for the gun companies when they were having to give away lowers for $59 why should we feel sorry for unprepared people when the reverse happens? Now I know me and you have different opinions but I doubt either one if us is hurting over high prices because we are prepared people. I mean if you really feel bad for someone paying a higher price the you paid 8 months ago by all means sell your excess to those that would otherwise spend too much at a price you feel is fair.

[Guest carter]

Carter market = average and last time I checked the average price for an item on gunbroker was based on what people were actually willing to pay. If an item is in high demand and can't readily be found then that's not gouging that's a buyer being impatient and wanting to have the newest toy while willing to pay a premium to do so. No one felt bad for the gun companies when they were having to give away lowers for $59 why should we feel sorry for unprepared people when the reverse happens? Now I know me and you have different opinions but I doubt either one if us is hurting over high prices because we are prepared people. I mean if you really feel bad for someone paying a higher price the you paid 8 months ago by all means sell your excess to those that would otherwise spend too much at a price you feel is fair.

I'm not saying you are in the wrong... you sold it on an auction site... it's an auction... i've only bought 2 things off of gunbroker and that was with a low buy it now price so i really didn't bid... and im not saying you gouged anyone... but for those who bought at a retail store at market price then turned right around to resell at profiteering prices... that's not a market

[Magiccarpetrides]

I agree I think i mistook what you had said and for that please accept my apology.

[Ted S.]

hmmm, for some reason, I thought the terms "market" and "price"  weren't interchangeable......

 

:tinfoil:

 

But I digress...time to see them crocodile tears! :yum:

Edited April 8, 2013 by Ted S.

[Guest bulluck533]

Glad to see that everything is calming down. Hopefully in a month or so the ammo will do the same. I miss the days where I could go to my local gun shop and get whatever ammo (excluding 5.7x28). Hopefully it wont be long now.

[whitewolf001]

Ammo's starting to slowly but surely trickle back in, but you won't see large quantities till probably July at the earliest.

[StPatrick]

Glad to see that everything is calming down. Hopefully in a month or so the ammo will do the same. I miss the days where I could go to my local gun shop and get whatever ammo (excluding 5.7x28). Hopefully it wont be long now.

 

The few folks in the industry that I've spoken to have all said pretty much the same thing (which, incidentally, dovetails with what David said in a blog post Jan. 23: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/blog/257/entry-93-predictions-about-rifles-mags-and-ammo-for-2013/ ).  The short version of what I'm hearing is that we're looking at a very slow refilling of the supply chain, with a "new normal" being established sometime this summer or fall, assuming no further market distortions due to government intervention.  If it's not better this winter, it likely won't be getting better for a very long time.  Even if you don't reload, seeing primers for sale will be a welcome sign for all shooters, as that's an indication that they aren't being used in-house by the ammo mfgs.  Right now, every primer that can be made is going directly to manufacturers (or being used by the same, since some make their own primers).  The demand for rounds is so great that there are no primers left for resale.  In short, 6 months from now if you see primers on the shelf, the situation is improving.

 

...I hope they were right.  This ammo craziness has really taken a lot of the fun out of a range day.  Anybody else felt bad about shooting, or declined to shoot, somebody else's gun because you didn't want to burn up their rounds?  I know I have, with dear friends.   

[Erik88]

I rarely go shooting anymore. Just enough to stay proficient but never just for pleasure. I won't risk reducing my stash to a level that would make me feel vulnerable. 

[Dave Keenom]

Back to the dealers getting into trouble for turning stripped lowers into rifles. Is the lower not considered the gun by the ATF?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Lower is the gun. I don't know why they would get in trouble. They might need a Class 2(?) manufacturer's FFL,

but I can't think of any other reason. I know they can't build them as cheap as the manufacturers sell them, though.

 

Build one yourself and compare it. Pretty much what the dealer problem would be, with a little discount on prices,

but not that much.

[Guest Msavard]

Scored a Colt LE6900 from Whitaker Guns (KY.. great shop that has taken pride in NOT raising prices through the panic) for $849 (MSRP $899). Hardly a Milspec badass rifle but for my purposes (heading out to someone's land and plinking away at ~100yds or so for kicks once a month) it's more than sufficient. S&W M&P's can be found for $729ish on a couple sites now. 

Had a booth at the Gun show in Memphis last weekend and the DPMS that I saw goign for $1300-1500ea at MS last month were back down to $899-1099. Still too high IMO but at least more reasonable. 

9MM Ammo is still tough to come by unless you know what you're doing. 

Regardless, agreed it's nice to see AR's coming back to earth.