ARs on Gunbroker Beginning to Fall (fast)

[jtmaze]

I have been in the market for a pocket pistol and I just had a guy get mad on another sight for me offering $250 to buy a $260 gun used. I thought that was fair for a used gun. He was asking more than retail for a used gun. <br /><br /><br />JTM<br />Sent from my sending thing

[R1100R]

It's one thing to buy a gun, shoot it and decide you don't like it, then sell it, compared to buying a gun with the intent to resell at a profit.  The latter is a straw purchase if sold without a background check.

 

It still does not meet the definiton of a "Straw Purchase" on the ATF's site.Which is knowingly purchasing a weapon for some one who can't on their own from a FFL. The is no law on Straw Purchase on private sales . Just selling to someone who shouldn't or can't own one. 

 

I'm just saying it is interesting concept.

Edited March 24, 2013 by R1100R

[R1100R]

Not quite, a little more to it than that, like the artificial condition that caused
this so-called market: politics and pure emotion.

It doesn't bother me one bit when someone profits from the marketplace.
It does bother me when a politician creates a panic in the marketplace
and someone calls that normal, plain old capitalism. Don't confuse the
two.

 

This, and them some.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Dolemite : "Buying or making any firearm with the intent to sell for a profit requires a FFL"

 

I don't know about "making " but please show me the law about this. Have you ever made something firearm related and profited from it.

 

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Does the GCA prohibit anyone

from making a handgun, shotgun

or rifle?

With certain exceptions a firearm

may be made by a nonlicensee provided

it is not for sale and the maker

is not prohibited from possessing

firearms.

 

If your intent is to sell a firearm you made you must have a license. The key is intent. If you do not intend to sell it at the time it is made you are legal. Or if you intend to sell it at the time you make but don't actually sell it you are legal. But making a firearm with the intent to sell and then selling it you can be in trouble without a manufacturers license, not FFL (there is a difference). There have been FFL's that have gotten into hot water for buying stripped lowers and then "making" a firearm to sell without a manufacturer's license. You can legally sell a firearm you made if you did not intend to sell it when you made it.

 

"I purchased a Hi Power, restored it then sold it. So I broke the law. My whole intention was to repair and sell this one pistol. So I'm a criminal.

Yes, but it would be hard to prove you bought it with the intent of reselling it without an admission. They would have to prove intent. They would have to prove you bought it with the intent of selling it, hopefully for a profit. A person buying and selling only a few firearms that would be very, very hard to do without an admission.

 

I serve with ATF, TBI, FBI DEA and just about every kind of LEO. None can tell me a case on this. All sales are for profit in one sense or the other. Depends on how you define profit.

 

Even the ones that sold stupid numbers most of the time received a warning from the ATF if no other serious law was broken

Warning for what? For breaking the law. Just because they were not prosecuted, and received a warning, doesn't mean they did not break the law. Choosing to not prosecute is different than not breaking the law.

 

The law states  about doing this as a business or lively hood. Granted I know there is no set number. But I can find no set case law on this with out getting into a stupid number of firearms being sold with out other laws also being broken at the same time.

 

When the intent is livelihood and/or pecuniary gain a license is required.

 

This is all about intent, nothing more. It is not so much about making a profit as it is about the intent to resell. A person can buy or make a firearm with the intent to sell and loose money but at the time they made or bought it they intended to sell it. As a matter of fact profit is not even a requirement otherwise every "individual" dealing in firearms could say they weren't profitable so they didn't need a license.

 

I honestly cannot recall ever buying a gun with the intent ot reselling it, now my memory is bad but I still believe I intended to keep every firearm I have ever bought. I intended to keep them then I found out it sucked or I just didn't like it or I needed the money. But I never bought a single gun with the intent of selling.

 

 

 

 

[Guest RedLights&Sirens]

... get some ammo and mags in the house then go for the gun. a gun is no use to you without ammo and mags...

This!!!

I put my AR on layaway last September. Just before the elections ordered a ten pack of pmags from Brownells. I never bothered buying ammo because I figured, "well I have the price if the gun locked in and even if a ban is imminent, Ill just pay off the balance." See, I figured the gun and mags would be the hard part not the ammo. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID on me!!! The shooting at Sandy Hook happened and then suddenly no ammo. I had the mags, I quickly finished paying my layaway but no ammo anywhere to be found. By luck one day I found some American Eagle 55 grain .223 (before the put a limit on quantity you can purchase). I had enough to buy seven boxes and eat ramen for two weeks lol.

[R1100R]

When the intent is livelihood and/or pecuniary gain a license is required.

 

This is all about intent, nothing more. It is not so much about making a profit as it is about the intent to resell. A person can buy or make a firearm with the intent to sell and loose money but at the time they made or bought it they intended to sell it. As a matter of fact profit is not even a requirement otherwise every "individual" dealing in firearms could say they weren't profitable so they didn't need a license.

 

I honestly cannot recall ever buying a gun with the intent ot reselling it, now my memory is bad but I still believe I intended to keep every firearm I have ever bought. I intended to keep them then I found out it sucked or I just didn't like it or I needed the money. But I never bought a single gun with the intent of selling.

 

 

 

 

 

The discussion was really not on manufacturing it is on selling. I cannot on the GCA find the  word "intent" or (profit).  It only refers to those wishing to make a lively hood or business out of selling firearms.

 

Show me one set of case law where a individual (stand up citizen) was prosecuted for this. It states the occasional sale is OK. Nowhere in the code does it address the individual has violated the law by buying to sell at a profit unless he is doing this as a business/ lively hood.

 

The Guy in Cleavland ,TN that recently got busted for this was warned by the ATF. But he did quite a few things that were shady.

The ATF regularly inquires and warns people, but not all of them have broken the law.  They have allot more going on than to deal with 2-3 firearms a person sells a year at a possible (intent) profit because he might be running a business ?? The alleged running of a business/lively hood would needed to be proved

 

I understand what you are saying and your opinion. I just don't agree with you.

Edited March 24, 2013 by R1100R

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Tossing around "intent" and proving it are two different things, and I'm sure the ATF, or any of the other prestigious

alphabets get creative when trying to hang someone on that bogus argument. Intent also includes a time factor. This

always seems to be forgotten. You can have no intention of doing something right now, but it can and will change

sometime in the future.

 

I really wish you guys would leave the expertise of straw buying and other concepts up to the proven wizards at

ARFCOM. They are so good at it, I quit visiting that place. When it is as chic to biotch about Fast and Furious, once

again, I might think of this as something to discuss, but since the Federales get away with the same thing on a daily

basis, quit trying to incriminate someone trying to make a profit, especially when there may be no reason.

[Magiccarpetrides]

I'm just glad I had what I had that other people wanted more when the shtf. :-)

[Major Kong]

Could someone stop in and define the "free market" for me? I haven't heard it in 15 or 20 minutes...

[runco]

Just one more point, maybe retailers are very smart, what if they had to disclose what they actually paid for something, so the buyer could see the markup, what outrage would there be?  I believe the fever pitch anger some gun people have is that they know what people bought something for, and can clearly see the markup.  This is just retail anger. 

[Mike.357]

Not to mention you would be breaking federal law by doing that. There are a lot of people out there willing to risk their freedom for a few bucks, I am not.

 

Making a profit in a free market is one thing but breaking the law, buying with the intent to resell, to make a profit in a free market is another.

 

Dolomite

 

 

And there are a couple of people right on the TGO classified doing that same thing I suspect.

[Major Kong]

And there are a couple of people right on the TGO classified doing that same thing I suspect.

Damn right there are. Lot's more "NIB, never fired" weapons than there have ever been.

[R1100R]

I am wanting two AK's. One a pistol to SBR is plummeting daily for the price for one. The other is a VEPR or Saiga 12 Gauge which is moving more slowly but I have time on my side.

 

I feel a lot of buyer remorse will be setting in soon or already has for some that purchased high.

I recently purchased a rare hand gun during this time period. Was not the type that was affected during this craziness. I have had some buyers remorse since I got it. So I know the feeling.

The seller I purchase it from had to sell it because he bought a Colt SOCOM II AR15 for $3600.00 (Christmas Time) which I saw today is selling for $1800.00 (Still above MSRP) So I know he has buyers remorse. There are others on here that have buyers remorse also, but probably wont admitted it.

 

I'm hoping/waiting for something to come along at a really good price to take my mind off it and feel better.  LOL  :)

Edited March 24, 2013 by R1100R

[Dolomite_supafly]

The discussion was really not on manufacturing it is on selling. I cannot on the GCA find the  word "intent" or (profit).  It only refers to those wishing to make a lively hood or business out of selling firearms.

 

Show me one set of case law where a individual (stand up citizen) was prosecuted for this. It states the occasional sale is OK. Nowhere in the code does it address the individual has violated the law by buying to sell at a profit unless he is doing this as a business/ lively hood.

 

The Guy in Cleavland ,TN that recently got busted for this was warned by the ATF. But he did quite a few things that were shady.

The ATF regularly inquires and warns people, but not all of them have broken the law.  They have allot more going on than to deal with 2-3 firearms a person sells a year at a possible (intent) profit because he might be running a business ?? The alleged running of a business/lively hood would needed to be proved

 

I understand what you are saying and your opinion. I just don't agree with you.

 

This is why they concern themselves with the bigger cases. It doesn't change the fact there are laws and the law has been broken when a person buys firearms with the intent to resell. Could be too that is is very hard to prove intent unless they are buying and selling a lot of firearms.

 

Here is an ATF press release for someone who was prosecuted for "intent to unlawfully deal in firearms".

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2013/03/032013-sf-sacramento-man-arrested-for-firearms-trafficking-offenses-involving-guns-purchased-in-nevada.html

 

There is no problem with buying a gun then selling it for a profit unless your intent when you bought the gun was to resell it. Profit is not what breaks the law, buying it with intent to resell it is. You can sell and entire collection fo 100's of guns and be perfectly legal but once you buy a gun with the intent of reselling it you need a FFL. They choose to prosecute the bigger cases because it is easier to prove intent. Someone's intent is very, very hard to prove so it is only the big cases we hear or read about.

 

As I said before if profit was the requirement then people could just say they lost money on the sale. And if the transaction was done in cash between two seperate parties who would know whether there was a profit or not. It is not about profits, it is about intent.

 

I am sure we have an agent or two here on the board. Maybe they can chime in. If they want to stay annonymous they can PM me or someone else in this discussion. Of if someone local to me wants I can meet them and they can witness the call between the ATF and me.

 

Dolomite

[Erik88]

Damn right there are. Lot's more "NIB, never fired" weapons than there have ever been.

 

 

But, but, it's perfectly fine if people are dumb enough to pay that much right?  :squint:

[Mike.357]

But, but, it's perfectly fine if people are dumb enough to pay that much right?  :squint:

 

No Erik this is different entirely.

 

The couple of people here who seem to have a never ending supply of guns to resell probably aren't just doing it over the current state of inflated prices.

[R1100R]

This is why they concern themselves with the bigger cases. It doesn't change the fact there are laws and the law has been broken when a person buys firearms with the intent to resell. Could be too that is is very hard to prove intent unless they are buying and selling a lot of firearms.

Here is an ATF press release for someone who was prosecuted for "intent to unlawfully deal in firearms".
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2013/03/032013-sf-sacramento-man-arrested-for-firearms-trafficking-offenses-involving-guns-purchased-in-nevada.html

There is no problem with buying a gun then selling it for a profit unless your intent when you bought the gun was to resell it. Profit is not what breaks the law, buying it with intent to resell it is. You can sell and entire collection fo 100's of guns and be perfectly legal but once you buy a gun with the intent of reselling it you need a FFL. They choose to prosecute the bigger cases because it is easier to prove intent. Someone's intent is very, very hard to prove so it is only the big cases we hear or read about.

As I said before if profit was the requirement then people could just say they lost money on the sale. And if the transaction was done in cash between two separate parties who would know whether there was a profit or not. It is not about profits, it is about intent.

I am sure we have an agent or two here on the board. Maybe they can chime in. If they want to stay anonymous they can PM me or someone else in this discussion. Of if someone local to me wants I can meet them and they can witness the call between the ATF and me.

Dolomite

The paper you listed for reference stated to the effect " was interstate transfer and sale to known gang members and other charges":. I can find nothing that states you have broken a law by buying a firearm to resell at a profit for one or two firearms. As long as other laws are not broken in conjunction with it. No body buys with the intention of losing money

Show me where it states it is illegal to buy with the intent to re sell a firearm "occasionally"

I don't buy to lose money. I keep them, trade off, customize, get bored with all the time. Every firearm I have purchased is with the intent to sell at a profit if and when I decided to get rid of them. I don't like losing mony

Are there people on here that have broken the law, sure. I'm just not sure they have done it over this.
I'm willing to accept it, just show me where it states "Cannot buy with the intent to re-sell" a firearm.

Show me where in the Code or Case Law where it states it is illegal to buy a firearm and sell it at a profit. Without trying to conduct a business or livelihood. There has always been other factors involved such as those selling a magic number of firearms that comes above what the ATF considers a "occasional sale". I have bought plenty of firearms over the years. Most I have sold at a profit.

Just show me in writing where it illegal to do this inside the "occasional sale" without breaking the magical number, running a business or some other no-no laws and I will stand corrected.

I have spoken to 3 differnet agents when I called in to ask a question and have gotten three different answers on the same question. It appear's there are not set answers. Edited March 24, 2013 by R1100R

[Erik88]

No Erik this is different entirely.

 

The couple of people here who seem to have a never ending supply of guns to resell probably aren't just doing it over the current state of inflated prices.

 

I was being facetious Mike but I have noticed the same thing.

[trevorst]

I was able to pick up a S&W MP15 Tactical for $1100 thats about what it should cost.... Saw a a Rock River for $999 today also.  Only bummer is the new S&W doesnt have a 5r barrel anymore and its 1/9 twist now instead of 1/8 (still melonite treated though).

 

As the credit card statements roll in I assume the prices will be dropping faster, and I am ready as I need another .308 lower....

[Dolomite_supafly]

If profits are what makes it illegal then you have admittedly broken the law. But it has nothing to do with profits. Well you have also said your intent when you buy every firearm is to resell for a profit.

 

You are getting hung up on profits and profits has nothing, zero, zip, nada to do with it. Buying a gun for $1,000 with the intent to sell it for $1 is just as illegal as intent on selling it for $2,000. It is about intent, not profits. I mentioned profits earlier but profits do not determine whether a person needs to have an FFL.

 

You are saying you buy guns with the intent of reselling them? If so then you need an FFL regardless if you are making a profit or not.

 

There are no magical numbers for "occasional sale", that will be determined by the agent doing the investigating whether they are occassional or not. Could be a few or a few hundred but that is determined by the agent. It is likely based on whether the agent can prove the gun was bought with the intent to resell it. And as I said before it is hard to prove intent without substantial numbers or an admission.

 

We are going in circles. Next time I have lunch with a member I make a call and ask so they can post it here.

 

Dolomite

[R1100R]

I'm going to call also
I hope we get the same answer.

" Can you purchase a firearm with the intent to re-sell under the occasional sales section of the GCA"
.

[TripleDigitRide]

It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood!

[Tempest455]

Not quite, a little more to it than that, like the artificial condition that caused
this so-called market: politics and pure emotion.

It doesn't bother me one bit when someone profits from the marketplace.
It does bother me when a politician creates a panic in the marketplace
and someone calls that normal, plain old capitalism. Don't confuse the
two.

 

Not really, that's pretty much it.

 

I know just a thing or two about sales and the market place. :)  I personally sell $14 million dollars of year of products and services (for the last 27 years) and have sat through more sales and marketing training than I care. That being said, every business model we have looked at still indicates it's the buyer. The emotion, yes, may be a factor but it still comes down to the price the customer is willing to pay at that point in time. 

[Dolomite_supafly]

I'm going to call also
I hope we get the same answer.

" Can you purchase a firearm with the intent to re-sell under the occasional sales section of the GCA"
.

 

How about "Can you purchase a firearm with the intent to re-sell under the occasional sales section of the GCA without having a FFL?"

 

My whole point is you need a FFL if you are buying firearms with the intent to resell them. If you are buying them then reselling them that is not an issue unless you intended to sell them before you bought them.

 

Dolomite

[R1100R]

How about "Can you purchase a firearm with the intent to re-sell under the occasional sales section of the GCA without having a FFL?"

My whole point is you need a FFL if you are buying

firearms with the intent to resell them. If you are buying them then reselling them that is not an issue unless you intended to sell them before you bought them.
 

 

Dolomite

 

 

Understood since it is all in the same paragraph. ie occasional sales, business, lively hood.

Edited March 25, 2013 by R1100R