groups using iron sights

[SingleStack]

Hey guys. i was reading another post about using irons or a red dot on an AR for shots out to 400yds.

What kinda groups do you get with your ARs open sights at 300 and 400 yds. maybe my eyes are realy bad but

at three hundred the front post on my HBAR looks wider than a shilouette target.

So what groups are decent with a standard 20" barrel and standard sights?

[RWF]

big very big, if am behind the wheel

[1gewehr]

The old military standard used to be that an expert rifleman could consistently hit individual enemy soldiers to 500 yards with iron sights.  That used to be referred to as 'the Rifleman's 1/4 mile'.  That equals a 12" group at 500 yards.  Or an 9.6" group at 400, 7.2" at 300, 4.8" at 200, 2.4" at 100 yards.  That's why the sights on the old M-14, Garand, and Springfield rifles were such high quality.  Nothing beats the sights on the 1903 Springfield for target shooting!

[leftyk82]

If you know what you're doing and have the experience and equipment (high power shooters), you can keep under MOA at 600 yards with the right ammo. And yes that's with iron sights.

[RichardR]

There are "iron sights" & then there are "iron sights" basically what I am saying is that there are huge differences inbetween one type of irons vs another.

You're not going to get great groups from notch & post type sights but on the other side of the coin you're not going to get great target aquisition speed out of itty-bitty peer through dual through-peepers either.

It's sort of a balancing act, take for example with A2 standard service rifle sights which I find to be a very good "middle ground" w/regards to iron sight types, I am both quick & relatively accurate out to the 300m mark, beyond that my target aquisition speed slows down considerably & I really have to concentrate on my fundamentals to repeatedly put rounds on target.

But when I say putting rounds on target I am not refering to shooting tight groups, if I want to really tight shoot groups with iron sights I will switch over to "ring within ring" type iron sights, with very small diameter diopters (sights with both front & rear peep holes), however doing so slows down my target aquisition speed quite considerably but the trade off is that I am able to group the rounds on distant or smaller targets much more accureately & consistantly.

So to answer your question ... "it depends on the irons" essentially what I am trying to say is that with all other factors being equal, same rifle, same load, same weather conditions, same distance, same shooting position, etc, I can typically shoot 3" groups @ 300m with diopter sights, those open up to twice that size using standard issue rear apeture front post A2 sights (6" groups @ 300m), and around twice that again if I am using post & notch type sights (12" @ 300m).

The reverse is true with regards to speed of target aquisition which is also a serious factor though, so keep that in mind when choosing the proper iron sights for your intended application.

Granted these are just examples of rough averages, some days I shoot better/worse, quicker/slower than others, some notch/post, apeture/diopeter sights are better than others, etc, but I hope that the above ramblings helped illustrate the differences in some of the various sight types.

[Will Carry]

Thanks Richard! That's some good shooting. Growing up, I never used anything but iron sights. I used to take my dad's Springfield out to the sorghum field and shoot up to 500 yards.  I got pretty good at it. I didn't set up targets but would shoot at Fire Ant mounds and such.  Now days everyone has to have a scope to shoot 50 yards. I still hunt with a Winchester 30-30 and feel comfortable shooting up to 100-150 yards, which is rare.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Will Carry