the nerve of some people

[bubbiesdad]

Finish your meal, let the owner know that you will never enter his establishment again and that you will urge all your friends to do likewise.

[Luckyforward]

Finish your meal, let the owner know that you will never enter his establishment again and that you will urge all your friends to do likewise.

I understand your feelings, but I choose to differ.

If I am running a business and a customer reports another customer carrying a firearm, I have no idea of what that means. Yes, I would like to assume that the person is legal with a HCP. The question is, do I want to empower such an assumption? The answer for me, is no. I would want to check out the possibility of someone who may confront me with that firearm later.

Like I said, we all have to make our own decision about how we would respond in such a situation.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Luckyforward handled this situation perfectly...

Now to the officer's actions. The police officer also handled this situation very professionally, he did nothing wrong.

Now on the "what ifs" that some of you say you would have done.

If I had gotten this same call... and I'm as progun as anyone I would have handled it very similar to how that officer did. If the person in question had told me... "Screw off"... or "let me finish my burger"... I would have given him one more lawful order to comply with my wishes and proceed outside. If he refused I would have called backup, found the proper backstop angle, then drew my Glock and held him at gun point until another unit arrived. God help him if he reached for anything at that point. When they got on the scene he would have been disarmed, cuffed and placed in my patrol car for my protection and the protection of the public until his identity had been determined.

Scenario#2:

If said person had refused to go outside and had instead reached for something.... after I had asked them to step outside... wallet maybe maybe a gun... who knows.

I would have simply knocked him out at the table with my rechargeable mag-lite, or stun move what ever would be appropriate. Now this would be something I would have to do because I thought the person was reaching for a gun... remember thats the call I got. Im trained to think this guy has bad intentions at this point because he's not being cooperative... right??? So if the guy wants to act like an azz, I will treat him as such.

Remember guys, police officers are trained, but their mindset is going home at the end of the shift...

I know everyone in the above posts said they were carrying concealed. But the moral to all these type stories are... keep your handgun properly concealed... if someone can see it, your not trying hard enough... especially if its some regular non gun person that sees it. I know you dont have to, but it puts you at an extreme disadvantage in every way.

Edited July 20, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[Luckyforward]

But the moral to all these type stories are... keep your handgun properly concealed... if someone can see it, your not trying hard enough... especially if its some regular non gun person that sees it. - from Glockmeister

And that is the issue - I was not thinking, and although I was wearing a jacket on a cool day, I took it for granted that my handgun was unseen . . . and I was wrong! I stated somewhere earlier here that I did not know how the gun was seen, but that is my fault, not the woman who saw it.

I never take concealment for granted anymore.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Glockmeister.

[Fallguy]

The LEO gets his authority from the law. If no law has been broken or invoked, there is no authority.

But for all the LEO knows you are breaking the law by being armed until you are able to "defend" your action by showing your HCP. So after you say you are armed he has all the authority he needs to see your HCP. If chooses to do that inside or outside is up to him I suppose.

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

"The LEO gets his authority from the law. If no law has been broken or invoked, there is no authority."

Thats not exactly true either. Many times they don't know if a law has or has not been broken, and they have the authority to find out whether it has or not.

Scenario:

We were sitting at home one crisp fall evening, had all the windows open enjoying the weather, just sitting on the sofa enjoying a movie and some popcorn, and I was doing a little laundry in between commercials.

Anyway, about 45 minutes into it we get a knock at the door. My husband answered it. It was 2 LEO on the front porch. One asked him if he'd step out on the porch for a minute, and the other asked him if he could step inside and talk to me. We had no idea what was going on, thought maybe something had happened in the neighborhood. So of course, come on in.

The officer that came inside asked me if everything was ok. I said yeah, just watching a movie and folding some laundry. The officer outside was asking my husband the same thing. We both said all was fine. When my husband came in with the other LEO, they told us our neighbor had called in a complaint that he thought I was being beaten. We were floored. But we all finally figured out what the neighbor had heard was our movie through the open windows. Was one of those Charles Bronson movies and yes, a man and woman had done some screaming and yelling.

Was a crime committed? No. Did the LEO's have the authority to ask my husband out to the front porch? Absolutely. Under the suspicion and/or belief that someone was being abused and they wanted to get to the bottom of it.

Now how far do you think it would have gotten my husband to say "No, I don't have to come outside because you're interrupting my movie, I broke no laws and I can talk to you right here"?

My bigger point, what good would it have done for him to be an a$$hat just because he can? His rights weren't violated and they went on their merry way in 10 minutes or less. The lesson we learned was keep the TV volume lower.

"Luckyforward handled this situation perfectly..."

I agree 100%.

[Im Neero]

I wouldn't have let them in the house in that situation.

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

Yeah, I can see how that got us in just tons of trouble.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I wouldn't have let them in the house in that situation.

really... and do you think they would have just went away?

They dont know whats going on until they have made contact with the persons involved.

What if the call was legit and some lady(maybe your mother, sister, or daughter) was getting beaten to death... should they wait at the door until they have your permission to come in?

[Im Neero]

I didn't say I would slam the door shut on their faces. They could explain the reason for their visit to me, and I would gladly set them straight.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Sorry, but thats not the way any Dept. I know of handles domestic violence calls. They would still have to ask to speak to your wife privately, so you letting them in to see her, and you step outside... or you sending her out?

[dralarms]

Dang,

I go out of town for a few days and all crap breaks loose. I've been in NC since Thursday and carried every where I went and there were a few times that while pumping gas mine was exposed. No one even batted an eye.

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

Just for the record, I agree with most of the posts. The only person who really was out of line was the lady who reported it. She wasn't totally wrong, but very ignorant. But then again, welcome to our society....

[Guest Ranger Rick]

Just for the record, I agree with most of the posts. The only person who really was out of line was the lady who reported it. She wasn't totally wrong, but very ignorant. But then again, welcome to our society....

Interesting thread. Generally, it's not ever in ones best interest "legally" to talk with the police. (Don't ever joke with one you don't know extremely well.) But, from a practical point of view... it was this time.

Not sure I agree with you. I'ld be inclined to call it an "honest mistake." If you heard some poor lady "screaming" from next door... you'ld react. Of course you'ld check it out yourself. But her best option would be to call the police. right?

If you really want to be cool about it... have your wife take over some flowers to her with a thank you note for "watching out for your family" and have a laugh with her about it! Ya, never know... she might be better than a guard dog in the future.

Now, if she is just a witch , causing your trouble, that's a different story. Guess then if you hear her "TV screaming" in the future... you'll just ignore her... I mean the TV... right?

[Guest canynracer]

I for one am very VERY happy to see that this is relativley a PRO-LEO conversation!!! I about fell outta my chair!

anyway...I understand the points that we are all trying to make, from both sides, but as lucky said, he dealt with it the way HE felt it needed at the time of the incident.

Just as all of us need to. The "What ifs" are good conversation, but sometimes I question the validity of SOME of the folks that say "I wouldnt" or "No Way"....I dont doubt their ability to stand up for their rights, but it is MUCH easier to say these things when the LEO isnt in front of you, making the demands.

To those that would, I commend your commitment, but as you do take your stand, please remember that the conversation you are having is with another human that wants to protect themselves just as much as you want to protect yourself.

So maybe, just maybe, taking a badge number, and notes of the incident to later contact the dept might be the better way for ALL parties in the long run.

[Luckyforward]

Very well said canyracer . . . rather than get into a one on one situation with an LEO, note what occurred along with a badge number.

In my situation, the issue for me was not a matter of my rights or what should happen for me.

Think about the issue of the man who owned the restaurant. A patron reports to him that another patron is carrying a firearm. Should the restaurant owner approach the patron with the firearm? Should the restaurant owner arm him/herself? What if the patron with the firearm loses control . . . begins to shoot . . . everyone and everything? Will the restaurant owner be held liable because he took control of a situation from which he should have called an LEO?

OR should the restaurant owner call for help from those who are TRAINED to confront situations like this? Of course, the restaurant owner should call a LEO. Get the LEO and any needed backup to deal with the situation. Don't endanger your patrons. Don't allow an unknown person who is known to be armed to control a situation without informed leadership.

My entire situation did not last more than 8 - 10 minutes after the LEO arrived. He came to my table, asked to speak with me outside. Showed him the HCP, he looked (and admired my 686), thanked me and told me to return to my meal, and explained all to the restaurant owner. I was not offended in any way, and the restaurant owner simply stated that he hoped I understood the situation, and I did.

I won't comment on this again and will let this thread die from my perspective.

My only point: think carefully about how you as the restaurant owner would handle the knowledge of an armed person in your place of business. Think carefully about the manner in which an LEO should pursue such a situation.

[DaveTN]

So maybe, just maybe, taking a badge number,

note what occurred along with a badge number.

Or a name.

They are people just like you and I…. they have names. And you may find that if you treat them as any other person you would meet; they will return the respect.

A “Badge Number†is not some magical number that you need to know to identify the Officer. In this day and age if he stopped you or was dispatched to your house, just knowing the date, place and time will identify him.

[Fallguy]

Next time just Open Carry....that way it won't look like you are trying to hide anything....

[Guest canynracer]

Next time just Open Carry....that way it won't look like you are trying to hide anything....

Troublemaker....LMAO

[Guest canynracer]

Or a name.

They are people just like you and I…. they have names. And you may find that if you treat them as any other person you would meet; they will return the respect.

A “Badge Number†is not some magical number that you need to know to identify the Officer. In this day and age if he stopped you or was dispatched to your house, just knowing the date, place and time will identify him.

Kinda thought that was implied...but apparantley not...

[Guest jackdog]

Explain why the lady was wrong. Lets look at it from her viewpoint she is in a restaurant with three small children. She sees a gun, She tells the owner. Explain what she did that was so wrong. Every week we hear about shootings on the news, guns carried by a few hcp holders is not the norm, so she spoke up. What if you were not legal or getting ready to rob the place. The way it was handled by both the Hcp holder and the Leo was well done on both sides. I just can't see blaming a citizen for reporting something out of the norm. Same for the gas station incident. Come on guys we do something that very few of the sheep do, and it is not a normal site for a lot of folks. I would commend these so called busy bodies for at least getting involved.

Edited July 21, 2008 by jackdog

[robbiev]

Explain why the lady was wrong.Every week we hear about shootings on the news, guns carried by a few hcp holders is not the norm, so she spoke up. What if you were not legal or getting ready to rob the place. The way it was handled by both the Hcp holder and the Leo was well done on both sides. I just can't see blaming a citizen for reporting something out of the norm.

I'm not making any statement as to whether she was wrong, but I would venture a guess that someone intent on robbing a joint doesn't normally come in and calmly eat lunch first (Pulp Fiction aside).

However, I understand that the average non-gun person doesn't think that way. Many of them simply think "OMG. A gun! He must be up to something."

In the situation described, once the LEO had left, I believe I would have come back in and removed my jacket while finishing my lunch just so there would be no question I had a gun.

[Guest jackdog]

Robbiev, i agree with you 100%. What I'm saying is that we choose to carry and when something like this comes up we should not get bent out of shape. If it happens to me I would make an attempt to talk to the person and explain the carry issue to them. Maybe with a little tack we can convert some of the sheep, if nothing else they may walk away saying hey, that guy was really nice and maybe he's right. But if you are careful with how you conceal then none of this will probably ever happen.

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

My viewpoint is this: I'd like for our society to get to a point where an armed citizen is not automatically considered to be dangerous by the average person.

However, even though that's the way I think things should be, it's not the way things actually are. So I figure there's a chance that, if I carry long enough, I'll get made and have a chat with the police. So long as that chat goes in a civil manner, I'm OK with that. I don't necessarily like it, but I figure it's the potential consequence of carrying.

There's nothing wrong with thinking and talking about the way things should be. But until things become the way they should be, I have to concern myself with dealing with the way things are.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

My viewpoint is this: I'd like for our society to get to a point where an armed citizen is not automatically considered to be dangerous by the average person.

However, even though that's the way I think things should be, it's not the way things actually are. So I figure there's a chance that, if I carry long enough, I'll get made and have a chat with the police. So long as that chat goes in a civil manner, I'm OK with that. I don't necessarily like it, but I figure it's the potential consequence of carrying.

There's nothing wrong with thinking and talking about the way things should be. But until things become the way they should be, I have to concern myself with dealing with the way things are.

well said GUTTERbOY