Revolver owners undergunned?

[dcloudy777]

People lose fights because they get outfought, not because they get outgunned. 

Edited March 20, 2013 by dcloudy777

[TMF]

People lose fights because they get outfought, not because they get outgunned.

Bingo.

[Guest ab28]

Except for extreme close range, as in contact. Pushing a semi into a body will knock it out of battery, and it will not fire. The revolver will go bang.

That's more of a training issue than anything else. And it won't do it unless you press really hard, as in dig the gun into them.

 

Anyone who argues a revolver is better for that kind of situation is grasping at straws and nostalgia. They have no advantages over a semi. I have been in a couple of shootouts at close range, and my rifle didn't work for one reason or another in one of them. I was glad I had a semi, even with FMJ rounds.

 

A semi has every advantage, higher capacity, faster reloads, faster clearing if something goes wrong(and it can in a revolver, I'd trust a Glock for reliability over a revolver any day), and the accuracy doesn't matter at the ranges you will be using a handgun at. I have seen several people repeatedly be able to hit man sized targets at 100 yards and farther with a semi, so the argument is moot there.

 

I honestly don't see what people have to argue about any more. The matter has been settled a long time ago. Anything a revolver has, a semi has done better, other than the mentioned grizzly/moose encounters with specialty high powered revolvers.

 

I wouldn't cry about it if a defensive revolver was all that I ended up in a situation where I needed a handgun, but I'd much prefer a semi in any situation.

Edited March 20, 2013 by ab28

[polecat]

 

I agree that in a city/urban self defense situation the semi is the way to go at least for me. I carry a Glock 19 with an extra mag and often a J frame as a backup. And I remember when all the departments were switching from 357 service revolvers to 9mm Sigs, Smiths & Beretta's. Now its mostly 40SW in a Glock. More firepower and for most folks easier to shoot accurately. 

 

That said, things are different depending on where you live and what you may encounter. For example I just moved here last year from northern Arizona where I lived in a very rural part of the state in the Bradshaw mountains. In that landscape the advantage of the revolver for me was distance. My Ruger Blackhawk in 357 with a 6.5 inch barrel could very accurately push a 130 grain bullet at over 1700 ft. per second. The most dangerous things you run into up there are the two legged critters running drugs or growing them.  A lot of my buddies carried the Glock 20 in 10MM which is a great gun for any purpose. If we were not in the midst of the great gun/ammo madness,  I would be looking hard at the Glock in 10mm.

 

Like others have said, guns are just tools.  Use of them depends on the skill level of the individual and the tactical landscape.  Like the man said : 

People lose fights because they get outfought, not because they get outgunned.

Edited March 20, 2013 by polecat

[Will Carry]

When I carry my 5 shot model 36 Chief's Special I do feel under gunned. I am comforted by the knowledge that there is no other gun that I can draw and fire faster. I own over 2 dozen hand guns and the Chief's Special has proven to be easy to grab and quicker to point and fire than any of the rest. I can hit what I'm shooting at too. With that said, I still feel under gunned when I carry it, compared to my Glock 19 or XD-45.

[owejia]

Had a platoon sgt, Sgt. Hogue, in Nam that carried a 38 s& w with pearl grips instead of a 45,  don't know if he was more comfortable shooting the 38 or was trying to look like Patton. Of course this was his secondary weapon. To each his own,carried my 32 derringer yesterday , had to go to St. Thomas in Nashville for some test on my wife, and had to leave home at 2:30 to get there by 5:30, but did not feel undergunned driving at that time of night. When the adrenalin starts to flow you don't always hit what you shoot at.

[JAB]

Anyone who argues a revolver is better for that kind of situation is grasping at straws and nostalgia...

 

I honestly don't see what people have to argue about any more. The matter has been settled a long time ago...

 

Point 1:  That is like saying that anyone who argues that a Ford Mustang is better than a Mazda Miata is grasping at straws and nostalgia.  In other words, nonsense.  Neither is necessarily 'better' - it all depends on one's preferences, experiences, needs and situation.

 

Point 2:  That is like saying that chocolate is better than vanilla, period, the matter was settled long ago and that there is nothing left to argue about.  There is no such thing as unequivocal fact in this discussion as it is largely opinion and preference driven.

 

I like revolvers better.  Generally speaking, I shoot revolvers better.  As for 'trust' issues, it is my belief that a revolver can jam (although it is very unlikely) but a semiauto, at some point, will jam.  Period.  The semiauto might be 100% reliable in and of itself but can still jam due to ammo issues or other factors.  I believe that the likelihood of such a jam increases as the size of the pistol gets smaller relative to power.  IOW, a pistol that is in roughly the same size class as a J-frame revolver - especially in anything over .32acp - is going to be more likely to jam than a full sized pistol of the same caliber.  As many people are daily carrying these smaller guns, I think that is definitely a factor to consider.  I also think that the idea that your average shooter could clear an ammo malfunction jam in a semiauto, especially a small semiauto, under pressure while being shot at or otherwise attacked, faster than that same person could simply pull the trigger again on a revolver is simply unrealistic.

 

So, in a full-sized gun a semiauto might have a slight edge over a revolver (although I don't believe that edge is as great as you do.)  In a 'pocket' gun, however, I think the wheelgun takes the lead in most situations.

Edited March 21, 2013 by JAB

[JAB]

Wheelgunners are totally outgunned.  Revolvers are slow to use and very difficult to reload.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw

 

Yeah, I know - most of us are not Jerry Miculek.  Heck, even he has said that the reload was partly luck and I don't think we would be carrying a custom, competition revolver for daily self defense.  This is presented more as the extreme of what is possible.

 

My real point is that if a normal, non-superhuman shooter trained with their more or less off the shelf revolver to be 1/10th as fast (meaning 12 shots, with a reload, in under 30 seconds) - heck, even 1/20th as fast (which would be 12 shots, with a reload, in under a minute) - they would still be doing pretty well and likely reloading their revolver as quickly as the average shooter can reload a semiauto.

 

Of course, given my theory that, for a non-Leo or non-military, high volumes of fire - much less the need to reload - happen mostly on television and in tactical fantasy camps, that factor probably doesn't matter as much as the proponents of the 'faster reloading' semiauto would like to believe.  The first five or six are just as fast from a wheelgun as from a semi.  Maybe even faster.

 

Now, if you want to really see slow, uncoordinated shooting, look at this guy and his extremely outdated single action revolver:  He should probably just stick with cutting hair (no joke - I've seen this guy on a couple of shooting shows and for his 'real job' he owns a salon - not a saloon, a salon - and is a hair dresser.)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9AJzv8gb2A

Edited March 21, 2013 by JAB

[Guest ab28]

Point 1:  That is like saying that anyone who argues that a Ford Mustang is better than a Mazda Miata is grasping at straws and nostalgia.  In other words, nonsense.  Neither is necessarily 'better' - it all depends on one's preferences, experiences, needs and situation.

It's not really preference, I was speaking in a strictly general sense, as in, within the parameters of a gunfight, a faster reload, more ammunition, and less recoil are always better.

 

If you like a revolver a lot, and you shoot one much better, then stick with that. I was more arguing the point of a certain weapon for a certain situation, mainly close range with several aggressors, not a specific weapon for a specific person.

 

I personally carry an LCP with 6 shots of .380, in FMJ for penetration. I can just drop it in my pocket, and go to work. It fits my clothing, build, and parameters perfectly. It isn't the ideal for any situation, but it will get the job done at crackhead distances, which is what it was designed for.

[gregintenn]

It's not really preference, I was speaking in a strictly general sense, as in, within the parameters of a gunfight, a faster reload, more ammunition, and less recoil are always better.

 

If you like a revolver a lot, and you shoot one much better, then stick with that. I was more arguing the point of a certain weapon for a certain situation, mainly close range with several aggressors, not a specific weapon for a specific person.

 

I personally carry an LCP with 6 shots of .380, in FMJ for penetration. I can just drop it in my pocket, and go to work. It fits my clothing, build, and parameters perfectly. It isn't the ideal for any situation, but it will get the job done at crackhead distances, which is what it was designed for.

I'm with you on the LCP. I'm a revolver man, but the LCP fits in my pocket better, and I don't have a cylinder digging into my leg. There are many better handguns, but they are likely to be left behind many times when the LCP is dropped into my pocket.

[Guest HvyMtl]

Nah. From all the stuff and hyperbole I have read, the number of shots fired in a self-defence situation is less than 6.  Sure, the idea of being able to carry more rounds is very tempting.

 

But, then, the over all size has to be bigger to carry more.  So, no, as long as you have a good sized caliber, and, more importantly are quite able with the firearm, there should be no issue.   Seemed to work for Dirty Harry and John Wayne.

[JAB]

I personally carry an LCP with 6 shots of .380, in FMJ for penetration. I can just drop it in my pocket, and go to work. It fits my clothing, build, and parameters perfectly. It isn't the ideal for any situation, but it will get the job done at crackhead distances, which is what it was designed for.

 

Nothing wrong with an LCP.  I don't hate semiautos - I even carry one, sometimes.  I have a Kel Tec P3AT - the original design that Ruger traced onto that 'blank piece of paper' that they used to design their Little Copied Pistol.  I keep it around because there are times when it's 'flat' nature fits really well for certain situations (like in a low-slung belly band under dress clothes.)  I actually shoot it pretty well.  For the most part, though, since I got a 642 the wheelgun has booted it right out of my pocket.  That is partly because those are exactly the size to power type semiautos that I expect to be a bit more jam prone - plus the capacity of a standard mag really isn't that much greater than a revolver.  I honestly don't find the 642 any more difficult or uncomfortable to carry in a pocket holster than the P3AT - but I don't carry in my back pocket.

 

I have a 9-round magazine for the P3AT.  It wouldn't be very practical to carry it with the 9-rounder as that would pretty well defeat the purpose of carrying a pocket pistol but I do sometimes carry it as a back-up mag.  Despite feeling that a reload will probably never be a necessity, I figure that if I were carrying the P3AT and did have to reload I might as well be serious about it.

 

This is what the Kel Tec 9 rounder looks like.  I don't know if anyone is making something like this for the LCP or not.

 

http://www.keltecweapons.com/product/p3at-37-9rnd-magazine/

 

I have also found that I shoot pistols that are similar in style to the old Walther style pretty well.  For that reason, I sometimes carry my CZ82.  I feel like it is a pretty good compromise between size, recoil, capacity and power - and it is a danged accurate little pistol.  Finally, on the rare occasions that I go somewhere that I find that little bit of extra firepower comforting, I carry the Ruger P95 with a spare 15 rounder.  So I'm not a 'revolver or die' kinda guy.  99% of the time, though, if I can carry it will be the 642 - which is to say that the majority of the time I choose to carry it instead of a semiauto and it doesn't leave me feeling undergunned.  Of course, often times if I am carrying one of the larger semiautos I will also carry my NAA mini WMR revolver on the weak side so I will have a revolver on me, just in case.

Edited March 21, 2013 by JAB

[wjh2657]

Against the 5+ MS13 gang bangers armed with AR-15s and holding  two hostages, last shot being from behind a barricade at 50 yards because one of them is wearing body armor? Sadly undergunned with my revolver. Might as well not even go outside, I am a dead man already.

 

Against a lone meth head jumping out from behind a van at 10'  in the WALMART parking lot? Five shots of .38 +P will most assuredly suffice.

 

As my community is a quiet, rural little county seat well away from any big city diseases, the second scenario is the one I prepare for. I feel quite comfortable with a 642 in the pocket.

 

As for gangbanger invasions, the biggest crime you can commit in my county is the dreaded "You ain't from around here are you?" and the chance of an out of down group getting further than i mile into the county before seeing blue lights is almost nil. What I need to get ready for is a lone local boy going over the edge on meth.

[gregintenn]

Against the 5+ MS13 gang bangers armed with AR-15s and holding  two hostages, last shot being from behind a barricade at 50 yards because one of them is wearing body armor? Sadly undergunned with my revolver. Might as well not even go outside, I am a dead man already.

 

Against a lone meth head jumping out from behind a van at 10'  in the WALMART parking lot? Five shots of .38 +P will most assuredly suffice.

 

As my community is a quiet, rural little county seat well away from any big city diseases, the second scenario is the one I prepare for. I feel quite comfortable with a 642 in the pocket.

 

As for gangbanger invasions, the biggest crime you can commit in my county is the dreaded "You ain't from around here are you?" and the chance of an out of down group getting further than i mile into the county before seeing blue lights is almost nil. What I need to get ready for is a lone local boy going over the edge on meth.

Just make sure you don't follow behind them too closely while driving. :up:

[Guest The Highlander]

I feel just fine with my 627 Pro Series, 8-shots, moonclipped, and backed up with a couple of speedstrips. Easy to shoot well, from powerful Double Tap and Buffalo Bore .357's down to poofer loads it can shoot them all. Even throw in shot loads. Same reason I choose a 12 gauge pump with a 3 1/2" chamber, for flexibility and reliability they are hard to beat.<br /><br />I also don't have any worries when carrying a 1911 or Glock either. They all have advantages and weaknesses. Carry and use what you like and shoot best and you will probably not be outgunned.

[wjh2657]

I used to think a revolver was enough til a couple years ago when the Food City got robbed by a guy with a semi-auto pistol and another fellow with a shotgun.  I thought to myself "you know I probably would have just cowered and not done a thing"...a 5 shot j-frame no longer seemed like enough.  Luckily no one got seriously hurt, but now that Food City always has a cop on duty.

 

 Under Tennessee law "cowering" was the only legal thing you could do in this situation. You are not allowed to draw and fire to stop a robbery. Unless they started firing, particularly at you, your gun should stay holstered.

 

Which brings me to my main point. There is a lot of talk about what you need in a "gun fight" here. If you find yourself in a gun fight , up against a high cap semi auto and a shotgun, your tactics suck dude. You are most likely going to die.

 

I think the term "self defense" needs a finer defining in these forums.

 

No, I don't feel "outgunned" for self defense with a revolver, I EDC a S&W 642. I intend to think ahead and avoid "gun fights."

Edited April 4, 2013 by wjh2657

[Oh Shoot]

 Under Tennessee law "cowering" was the only legal thing you could do in this situation. You are not allowed to draw and fire to stop a robbery. Unless they started firing, particularly at you, your gun should stay holstered.

 

Not true at all.

 

You would not be "stopping a robbery", but rather in aid of person who has a reasonable fear of imminent death or serious injury, if indeed not in fear of it yourself.

 

Anytime a gun is pointed at anybody, barring some extenuating circumstances I can't immediately think of,  that presumption would surely be supported in TN courts.

 

Most certainly, a perp does not have to start firing before that presumption is reached. That's why simply pointing a firearm at another (or even merely displaying it during a confrontation or altercation) is a felony in and of itself (aggravated assault).

 

- OS

Edited April 4, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Patton]

You would be perfectly reasonable to use deadly force against someone aiming a firearm at you or someone else. You do not have to wait for someone to shoot first.

[JWC]

Had a platoon sgt, Sgt. Hogue, in Nam that carried a 38 s& w with pearl grips instead of a 45,  don't know if he was more comfortable shooting the 38 or was trying to look like Patton. Of course this was his secondary weapon. To each his own,carried my 32 derringer yesterday , had to go to St. Thomas in Nashville for some test on my wife, and had to leave home at 2:30 to get there by 5:30, but did not feel undergunned driving at that time of night. When the adrenalin starts to flow you don't always hit what you shoot at.

My dad carried a S&W Model 10 .38 while he was there. Of course it was a backup to his M-60 but every day they could've got shot down and it'd be pretty important... the reason he said he carried the revolver was cause he could throw it harder with more velocity than a 1911 when it was empty. Plus when he first got there they looked bad azz cause they all wore em in gunslinger style buscadero rigs.

[Guest MilitiaMan]

To answer the title directly, not at all. I carry a semi-auto but would have no problem at all EDC'ing a revolver.

[Rickey]

http://youtu.be/5B7AqOeKEU4

 

I'm a revolver nut so I dont feel short changed against your average crook but if he's a decent shooter I'd rather not get in the predicament if I can help it

Edited April 10, 2013 by Rickey

[MarkInNashville]

http://youtu.be/5B7AqOeKEU4

 

I'm a revolver nut so I dont feel short changed

Besides, you can bang-out 18 rounds, accurately, as fast or faster than most people can with a single magazine in a semi-auto!

[wjh2657]

Not true at all.

 

You would not be "stopping a robbery", but rather in aid of person who has a reasonable fear of imminent death or serious injury, if indeed not in fear of it yourself.

 

Anytime a gun is pointed at anybody, barring some extenuating circumstances I can't immediately think of,  that presumption would surely be supported in TN courts.

 

Most certainly, a perp does not have to start firing before that presumption is reached. That's why simply pointing a firearm at another (or even merely displaying it during a confrontation or altercation) is a felony in and of itself (aggravated assault).

 

- OS

 

"... in aid of person who has a reasonable fear of imminent death or serious injury..."

 

If the Prosecutor/ plaintiff's attorney can get them to say that they did not feel the bandit was going to shoot them, You lose this defense. (Based on actual experience on jury duty. Anytime you act on behalf of another, you must know for sure that they would act or want you to act on their behalf., this one is tricky!)

 

"... that presumption would surely be supported in TN courts..."

 

Courts means juries. Juries will vary in demographics and philosophies by locale. A jury in Nashville would probably back you up, a jury in Memphis would probably burn you.

 

"...That's why simply pointing a firearm at another (or even merely displaying it during a confrontation or altercation) is a felony in and of itself (aggravated assault)..."

 

Not a point of issue. We can't shoot somebody for committing a felony in TN, only in actual self defense.

 

It sucks and it makes for difficulty in using sound defense tactics but it is the law. The only way you can be sure you are not going to go to prison and/or get sued for everything you have is to follow the law. If we are going to be able to amply protect ourselves the law has to be changed otherwise follow it.

 

Don't come after me, I didn't write the law, I just have to obey it.

Edited April 10, 2013 by wjh2657

[Guest ab28]

If someone sued me, they wouldn't get much. I'm a minimalist, and own barely anything.