Need another reason to carry? Man brutally beaten while defending his daughter...

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

Eight of 'em? Hell, I wouldn't have even had two rounds apiece.

I guess that in reality, some of them would probably break ranks and GTFO as soon as shots were fired... still, something to think about...

[Guest jth_3s]

I dont know how to post pics I just copied the thing off the link in the OP

[BrasilNuts]

I'm not picking on you here but I am using this quote as an example of a trap that I think we allow ourselves to fall into too frequently.

Criminals travel to work just the same as you and I travel to work. We absolutely MUST get past the false sense of security that we assign to certain areas just because those areas are predominantly upper class, or predominantly crime free, or predominantly white, or black, or red, or whatever. If you are outside the four walls of your own home, you cannot guarantee what sort of element you are going to interact with. PERIOD.

In my past, I have been very guilty of choosing when I would or would not go armed based on what sort of situation I thought I might encounter at whatever place I was going. This sort of thinking will get you hurt or killed.

If we all knew when and where we would need our sidearms for self defense, wouldn't we all just avoid being there in the first place???

The fact is you never know. Ever. The wolf prowls seeking those whom he might devour. You do not ever know when or where the wolf will surface. It's your duty to be vigilant and to be armed to protect yourself and those you love.

/end rant

+1

I would have had 2 shots each and 2 left over.

[Magiccarpetrides]

I'm not picking on you here but I am using this quote as an example of a trap that I think we allow ourselves to fall into too frequently.

Criminals travel to work just the same as you and I travel to work. We absolutely MUST get past the false sense of security that we assign to certain areas just because those areas are predominantly upper class, or predominantly crime free, or predominantly white, or black, or red, or whatever. If you are outside the four walls of your own home, you cannot guarantee what sort of element you are going to interact with. PERIOD.

In my past, I have been very guilty of choosing when I would or would not go armed based on what sort of situation I thought I might encounter at whatever place I was going. This sort of thinking will get you hurt or killed.

If we all knew when and where we would need our sidearms for self defense, wouldn't we all just avoid being there in the first place???

The fact is you never know. Ever. The wolf prowls seeking those whom he might devour. You do not ever know when or where the wolf will surface. It's your duty to be vigilant and to be armed to protect yourself and those you love.

/end rant

I absolutely agree with that. I carry everywhere I go...even to Memaws on wednesdays for "family night". I was just mentioning what kind of area that was for people that didnt know/hadnt been there. Like the officials said crimes like this are not super common...its not detroit ;-D I recently had a detailer that works on our cars asked me why I carry everyday...I told him the Badguys arent going to warn you before they attack...as the old saying goes "better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it".

[Mike.357]

If you look at the pics in the original

the mug shots of these guys yet, but I think I know what I'll see.

I looked and was not suprised by what was pictured. Funny in these incidents the accused criminals are never everyday white guys.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tungsten

I'm not picking on you here but I am using this quote as an example of a trap that I think we allow ourselves to fall into too frequently.

Criminals travel to work just the same as you and I travel to work. We absolutely MUST get past the false sense of security that we assign to certain areas just because those areas are predominantly upper class, or predominantly crime free, or predominantly white, or black, or red, or whatever. If you are outside the four walls of your own home, you cannot guarantee what sort of element you are going to interact with. PERIOD.

In my past, I have been very guilty of choosing when I would or would not go armed based on what sort of situation I thought I might encounter at whatever place I was going. This sort of thinking will get you hurt or killed.

If we all knew when and where we would need our sidearms for self defense, wouldn't we all just avoid being there in the first place???

The fact is you never know. Ever. The wolf prowls seeking those whom he might devour. You do not ever know when or where the wolf will surface. It's your duty to be vigilant and to be armed to protect yourself and those you love.

/end rant

I absolutely agree with that. I carry everywhere I go...even to Memaws on wednesdays for "family night". I was just mentioning what kind of area that was for people that didnt know/hadnt been there. Like the officials said crimes like this are not super common...its not detroit ;-D I recently had a detailer that works on our cars asked me why I carry everyday...I told him the Badguys arent going to warn you before they attack...as the old saying goes "better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it".

I absolutely agree with both of you guys

[Guest jackdog]

Tungsten, that is not a rant. It is pure fact with a much added dose of common sense

[Guest Ranger Rick]

Even if he did have an HCP could he legally shoot any of the people since they were unarmed? If he had defended himself no one would have know how this was going to turn out and the papers would have acted like he was a murderer.

I've been generally thinking about this since the other day when reading the post of the father who defended himself & little girl by brandishing his pistol in a Walmart parking lot...

In this Valleyfair example... at what point do you pull out your firearm? Is knocking a family member to the ground it? (probably)

And at what point do you pull the trigger? Waste a warning shot?

Deciding at what point it's an immediate AND life-threatening event is no easy proposition.

If it had been one-on-one... how many punches are you gonna take?

Is it legal to carry at the Tennessee Valley Fair that comes to Knoxville?

[G27]

Eight of 'em? Hell, I wouldn't have even had two rounds apiece.

I guess that in reality, some of them would probably break ranks and GTFO as soon as shots were fired... still, something to think about...

Against determined individuals, 8:1 odds aren't good even if you have a side-arm, but these types are nothing but cowards who feel tough in groups. If he had been carrying and had drawn on them, I guarantee every single one of them would have backed off...

[G27]

When you draw is totally subjective and determined by each individual circumstance - it's when you fear the life of yourself or another. I'm told you'll know it when you feel it.

And at what point do you pull the trigger? Waste a warning shot?

Never, never, never fire a 'warning shot'. You ONLY pull the trigger when you are on target and ready to stop a threat. Warning shots are illegal and will turn the table on the circumstance immediately - you almost certainly will be charged with reckless endangerment or, in a case like this where there are several 'witnesses', possibly attempted murder.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

Against determined individuals, 8:1 odds aren't good even if you have a side-arm, but these types are nothing but cowards who feel tough in groups. If he had been carrying and had drawn on them, I guarantee every single one of them would have backed off...

i agree with you. they would of scattered like flies

[TGO David]

I mean absolutely no offense to anyone in this thread, but any time I read or hear someone propose (a.) drawing and brandishing to "scare away" the bad guys or (b.) firing a warning or wounding shot first... I am reminded of just how important it is for anyone who carries a handgun for self defense to seek out and obtain good defensive handgun instruction.

These two things are huge No-No's. You never draw unless you are committed to shooting your adversary. You never shoot your adversary unless you are ready to shoot him or her completely to the ground. No warning shots. No winging them. You shoot them center of mass and do so as many times as is necessary to completely stop the threat. Any good trainer will instruct you that the threat is not stopped until the assailant(s) is on the ground and no longer posing a threat to you.

Please, I implore anyone who does not have absolute clarity on what you may or may not do in a self defense situation... GET FORMAL, PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTION FROM A REPUTABLE TRAINER.

I can recommend one such outfit in middle Tennessee based on my personal experiences. There are others that I can recommend but do not have experience with. It really doesn't matter who provides it as long as the training is good, factual and not full of bad or outdated information or silly impractical tactics.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

I mean absolutely no offense to anyone in this thread, but any time I read or hear someone propose (a.) drawing and brandishing to "scare away" the bad guys or (b.) firing a warning or wounding shot first... I am reminded of just how important it is for anyone who carries a handgun for self defense to seek out and obtain good defensive handgun instruction.

These two things are huge No-No's. You never draw unless you are committed to shooting your adversary. You never shoot your adversary unless you are ready to shoot him or her completely to the ground. No warning shots. No winging them. You shoot them center of mass and do so as many times as is necessary to completely stop the threat. Any good trainer will instruct you that the threat is not stopped until the assailant(s) is on the ground and no longer posing a threat to you.

Please, I implore anyone who does not have absolute clarity on what you may or may not do in a self defense situation... GET FORMAL, PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTION FROM A REPUTABLE TRAINER.

I can recommend one such outfit in middle Tennessee based on my personal experiences. There are others that I can recommend but do not have experience with. It really doesn't matter who provides it as long as the training is good, factual and not full of bad or outdated information or silly impractical tactics.

oh yes i agree with you 100% if i ever have to pull my gun i will shoot to kill. when i took my HCP class the instructor teaching the class said never pull your gun for self defence unless you pain on killing the threat

[G27]

oh yes i agree with you 100% if i ever have to pull my gun i will shoot to kill. when i took my HCP class the instructor teaching the class said never pull your gun for self defence unless you pain on neutralizing or stopping the threat

FIFY.

Not trying to be pedantic, just saying that if you condition yourself to using words like 'neutralizing' or 'stopping' instead of 'killing' it might help you should you ever be in the unfortunate position of waiting to hear if you will be prosecuted (or waiting to hear if 12 of your peers think you are innocent or guilty)...

[TGO David]

FIFY.

Not trying to be pedantic, just saying that if you condition yourself to using words like 'neutralizing' or 'stopping' instead of 'killing' it might help you should you ever be in the unfortunate position of waiting to hear if you will be prosecuted (or waiting to hear if 12 of your peers think you are innocent or guilty)...

Very good point.

[Guest db99wj]

One thing that comes to my mind, and I agree with Tungsten's post, is that you also have your family there. My first priority is make it so that my family and myself get home safely. I would be trying my damndest to get my family to the car, to a crowded area, to a whatever I could get them too where the threat was eliminated. That means I would be moving, barking orders to my family, and eliminating threats as I moved. Tungsten mentioned training, you don't get this training in a HCP course or standing in your lane at the range. You need to consider a street level classes that are offered in your area. Most will teach you shooting while moving and shooting behind cover.

[Guest Ranger Rick]

I mean absolutely no offense to anyone in this thread, but any time I read or hear someone propose (a.) drawing and brandishing to "scare away" the bad guys or (b.) firing a warning or wounding shot first... I am reminded of just how important it is for anyone who carries a handgun for self defense to seek out and obtain good defensive handgun instruction.

These two things are huge No-No's. You never draw unless you are committed to shooting your adversary. You never shoot your adversary unless you are ready to shoot him or her completely to the ground. No warning shots. No winging them. You shoot them center of mass and do so as many times as is necessary to completely stop the threat. Any good trainer will instruct you that the threat is not stopped until the assailant(s) is on the ground and no longer posing a threat to you.

Please, I implore anyone who does not have absolute clarity on what you may or may not do in a self defense situation... GET FORMAL, PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTION FROM A REPUTABLE TRAINER.

I can recommend one such outfit in middle Tennessee based on my personal experiences. There are others that I can recommend but do not have experience with. It really doesn't matter who provides it as long as the training is good, factual and not full of bad or outdated information or silly impractical tactics.

Well, I've been thru HCP. Had a good class instruction too. But, I gotta tell ya Tungsten... there's no way I've got ABSOLUTE CLARITY on what can and can't be done in a self defense situation!

So, what do you recommend, Basic Handgun course from NRA? I'm in East TN. Been thinking about a Basic Home Defense course for starters. Not sure yet where to start though. Can I admit that? How do I get training that is... "good, factual and not full of bad or outdated information or silly impractical tactics."

Would be interested, based on the Valleyfair account, when/what you would have done in his shoes... assuming your were CC.

Family member has been knocked down once by two. Now... eight guys comin' toward you. 50 feet away. Family behind you. At 35 feet are you gonna pull the gun out and have it at your side (pointing at the ground) to see it that has an effect? If not... at 21 feet are you gonna draw and fire? What Would Tungsten Do?

WWTD?

[TGO David]

If you're in East TN I would check with the fine folks at Austin's Tennessee Firearms School (link here) and inquire about their offerings for a defensive pistol class. TGO Member "Phantom6" is the owner and I have heard nothing but good things from those who have taken some of his classes. He's located near Oak Ridge.

If you are willing to travel to middle Tennessee, I have had personal experience with Critical Incident Strategies (link here) and cannot say enough good things about the instructors or the defensive pistol class.

Both of these groups may have other recommendations for you based on proximity to where you live. I've watched the NRA basics class being taught before and I don't think it will really compare to the sort of nitty gritty information that you're going to get from either of these two schools. The NRA class looked like a nice primer for someone who was completely new to handguns. A good defensive pistol class will be at least one tier above that in terms of the drills they have you perform, the training you receive and the amount of eye opening information you get.

[Guest jth_3s]

I know he could have shot them after he knew his life was in danger but by then it was too late. What wouldve happened had this guy shot them before they attacked? Could he have legally shot them when they started coming towards him I know I would be nervous shooting an unarmed man.

[G27]

I know he could have shot them after he knew his life was in danger but by then it was too late. What wouldve happened had this guy shot them before they attacked? Could he have legally shot them when they started coming towards him I know I would be nervous shooting an unarmed man.

This is what I was taught in my HCP class:

The following three things must be present before deadly force may be used in self-defense:

1] INTENT: Does the person's words or actions indicate a threat ot death or greatbodily injury?

2] ABILITY: Usually a weapon capable of causing you injury must be displayed and you must be within the useful range of that type of weapon. The size of or number of assailants also can playa part in your decision to act.

3] JEOPARDY: Can the perpetrator(s) cause immediate death or serious bodily injury?

In other words, from my understanding and what I was taught, if eight guys started harassing me and my family like that and I felt threatened, I'm within the law to defend my family and myself against the assailants.

[TGO David]

I know he could have shot them after he knew his life was in danger but by then it was too late.

Everyone hates an armchair quarterback so I'm going to try to avoid being one... but this is why it's also good to invest in other forms of personal preparedness. Like a martial art, or at least enough "street fighting" pointers to know how to buy yourself the few seconds of time it takes to draw your weapon and begin delivering fire.

The more I learn and the more my eyes are opened to just how frickin EVIL some people in this world are and how quickly and badly they will hurt you with little warning and no provocation, the more I'm realizing that it is essential to develop a warrior's mindset if you are going to go armed. And what I mean by "warrior mindset" is that you are willing to invest the time, energy and resources (money, equipment, etc.) into preparing yourself to deal with the worst that this world has to offer in a means that positions you to come out on top.

HunterH and I were just discussing this last night and both of us have come to realize that hand to hand training is an important and often overlooked aspect of personal protection. He's got a huge leg up on me there as he already has several years worth of martial arts training to his name, and I'm just now investigating getting started.

But anyway... I digress somewhat.

Back to the subject at hand: That's why I said this guy really needed for his wife to be carrying also. Between the two of them, once the S really started to HTF, she might have been able to access her own firearm and start delivering shots into the bad guys even if he couldn't access his own.

And as others observed, once a few of the bad guys started going to the ground with sucking chest wounds, the others probably would have fled the scene.

Honestly I hope I never have to find out just what I'd do in this situation. But I do use these news stories to analyze my own preparedness and make plans to fix the areas where I see vulnerabilities. Hopefully we all do.

[G27]

Honestly I hope I never have to find out just what I'd do in this situation. But I do use these news stories to analyze my own preparedness and make plans to fix the areas where I see vulnerabilities. Hopefully we all do.

Indeed, excellent point. Carrying a handgun doesn't make you invincible - it may help in some situations, but in others it may as well not exist.

[Guest eyebedam]

I couldnt imagine what my first reaction would be if someone did that to 1 of my young daughters. I probably would knocked the hell out of him before he was able to make the phone call. I hope this guy comes out ok. Im getting tired of all these thugs running around. I woulda been nice if the man was armed and was able to put a few in the chest of the BGs. The world is really becoming a messed up place when you cant even go to a fair with your family. I know I dont take mine to the Tn State fair anymore because of all the Canadians that are there sippin on there gimn talking crap witht here pants sagging. If I was to go you better believe id be packing.

[Guest bkelm18]

An unarmed man can kill you just as easily and quickly as an armed one. Just because they aren't armed doesn't mean they are out to pick lilies and frolic in the gardens. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[Guest builderwood]

If he had been carrying. The funeral home should be a very busy place.