Has Zimmerman Waived His Right to a Pre-Trial "Stand-Your-Ground" Hearing?

[DaveS]

Andrew.....I think it's really great that you are posting here. I do however have a question for you. Here is page two of Zman's statement to police;

 

. . . to a darkened area of the sidewalk, as the dispatcher was asking me for an exact location the suspect emerged from the darkness and circled my vehicle.  I could not hear if he said anything.  The suspect once again disappeared between the back of some houses.  The dispatcher once again asked me for my exact location.  I could not remember the name of the street, so I got out of my car to look for a street sign.  The dispatcher asked me for a description and the direction the suspect went.  I told the dispatcher I did not know but I was out of my vehicle looking for a stret sign and the direction the suspect went.  The dispatcher told me not to follow the suspect & that an officer was in route (sic).  As I headed back to my vehicle the suspect said “You got a problem,” I said “No.”  The suspect said, “you do now.”  As I looked . . .

 

 

 

TM was shot on a sidewalk that runs down the back between two rows of town houses and there are no street signs there that I can see, and no where near Zman's vehicle. Did he "follow" TM down the side walk to see which way he went, maybe? Apparently Zman "knew" which way TM went?

 

What is your OPINION on this statement and the facts of the case?

Just curious...

 

DS

Edited June 17, 2013 by DaveS

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

TM was shot on a sidewalk that runs down the back between two rows of town houses and there are no street signs there that I can see, and no where near Zman's vehicle. Did he "follow" TM down the side walk to see which way he went, maybe? Apparently Zman "knew" which way TM went?

 

What is your OPINION on this statement and the facts of the case?

Just curious...

 

DS

 

I think Zimmerman was staying in his car and doing the observe-and-report thing as the LEO advisors to the Neighborhood Watch program had instructed him.  When he told the dispatcher that Martin had run (out of Zimmerman's sight), and the dispatcher asked Zimmerman where Martin had run to, Zimmerman exited his vehicle to acquire the information requested by the dispatcher.  When he couldn't see Martin from his new position of observation (presumably because Martin was hiding in the bushes from which he would launch lethal attack upon Zimmerman) he and the dispatcher wrapped up their call and hung up.  

 

Moments later, Martin made the worst mistake of his young life and committed an aggravated assault upon a man armed and prepared to defend his life by all lawful means necessary.

 

That's what the facts in evidence indicate, and that are the facts that form the for my opinion.  (New facts could, of course, result in a corresponding change in opinion--although, genuinely new and authenticate evidence this late in the game seems unlikely).

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

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Edited June 17, 2013 by Law of Self Defense

[RobertNashville]

TM was shot on a sidewalk that runs down the back between two rows of town houses and there are no street signs there that I can see, and no where near Zman's vehicle. Did he "follow" TM down the side walk to see which way he went, maybe? Apparently Zman "knew" which way TM went?

 

What is your OPINION on this statement and the facts of the case?

Just curious...

 

DS

I look forward to Andrew's answer.  That said, what difference does it make if Zimmerman "followed" Martin or not?

 

Andrew already dealt with that issue earlier and the bottom line is, following somoene is neither illegal in FL (or TN for that matter) and following someone is not justification for Martin go attack and assault Zimmerman unless Zimmerman did sometning significant enough to cross the bar of a reasonable man believing his life was in danger.

 

If there are no street signs on that street I suppose that well explains why Zimmerman didn't know what street he was on and why he couldn't find a street sign to give to the dispatcher.

[DaveS]

Thanks for your opinion on this case. I think the Prosecutor is going to RIP his statements apart line by line. I was just curious on that particular part..Thanks again.

 

DS

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

I look forward to Andrew's answer.  That said, what difference does it make if Zimmerman "followed" Martin or not?

 

Hmm, something weird seemed to happen with my initial response to DaveS' question (my response became post #110, out of sequence) but now it seems to be in the right place as post #127.

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

Thanks for your opinion on this case. I think the Prosecutor is going to RIP his statements apart line by line. I was just curious on that particular part..Thanks again.

 

He'll certainly try.  But with what facts in evidence?  If you are aware of actual facts in evidence (not rumor or speculation) that counters Zimmerman's explanation of events, I'd be glad to hear them.

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

[URL=https://www.facebook.com/pages/Law-of-Self-Defense/176397865719110]Facebook:  Law of Self Defense[/URL]

[DaveS]

I look forward to Andrew's answer.  That said, what difference does it make if Zimmerman "followed" Martin or not?

 

Makes no difference to me at all, doesn't take the fuzz off my peaches one way or the other.

 

Andrew already dealt with that issue earlier and the bottom line is, following somoene is neither illegal in FL (or TN for that matter) and following someone is not justification for Martin go attack and assault Zimmerman unless Zimmerman did sometning significant enough to cross the bar of a reasonable man believing his life was in danger.

 

I was just armchairing the EVIDENCE to his STATEMENT. A reasonable man may or may not wait on the police.

 

If there are no street signs on that street I suppose that well explains why Zimmerman didn't know what street he was on and why he couldn't find a street sign to give to the dispatcher.

 

I think anyone who is the Captain of a "one man neighborhood watch", "in a neighborhood in which he lives, should at least know street names, and also know there are NO STREET SIGNS located down that sidewalk.

OK...that didn't work too good....

Edited June 17, 2013 by DaveS

[RobertNashville]

???

 

Not sure exactly what didn't work out.  ;)

Edited June 17, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

I think anyone who is the Captain of a "one man neighborhood watch", "in a neighborhood in which he lives, should at least know street names, and also know there are NO STREET SIGNS located down that sidewalk.

A reasonable point--but you'd convict a man of murder 2, or even manslaughter on that basis? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.

Under Florida law, even IF we imagine that Zimmerman had followed Martin, and even IF Zimmerman had initiated a non-deadly confrontation with Martin, the moment Martin escalated the conflict to a deadly-force-serious-bodily-harm level, it was a NEW fight, and one in which Martin was the aggressor, and against which Zimmerman could lawfully defend himself with deadly force.

 

See 776.041, which provides in relevant part that:

 

 

The justification [of self-defense] described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who: . . . (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:  (a) Such force [that he is defending himself against] is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant. (emphasis added)

 

 

 

If Zimmerman can qualify for self-defense even under those highly unfavorable imaginary circumstances, the mere fact that someone didn't know the name of the street he was on is not going to carry the State prosecutor very far.

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

[URL=https://www.facebook.com/pages/Law-of-Self-Defense/176397865719110]Facebook:  Law of Self Defense[/URL]

[RobertNashville]

DAVES;

 

Let me see if I understand...you don't care whether Zimmerman followed Martin but you took the time to post in this thread to asked Andrew's opinion on that very question...have i got that right???

 

Moving on, what you think a "captain of a one-man neighborhood watch" should or shouldn't know is immaterial wouldn't you say?.

 

I've lived in my neighborhood for almost 10 years and I haven't driven or walked every street let alone know the street names by memory and I happen to be part of my neighborhood watch program.

 

By the way, where does this "one-man neighborhood watch" Bovine Scatology come from, anyway??? Do you know for a fact that the neighborhood watch in that neighborhood is just Zimmerman and no one else or did you just pull that out of your behind???  And if the "neighborhood watch" was really just Zimmerman; how the hell did sweet little Trayvon's money grubbing parents win/settle a 7 figure civil lawsuit against the neighborhood's homeowner's association??? I find it rather difficult to believe the homeowner's association had any responsibility anyway but certainly they had no responsibility if Zimmerman as just a guy pretending to be part of a neighborhood watch program that didn't even exist. ROTFLMAO

 

You seem to love to claim this "makes no difference to me at all, doesn't take the fuzz off my peaches one way or the other" then you make incredibly biased statements like "one-man neighborhood watch" captain...your bias against Zimmerman seems to be just as think as the drive-by media's.

Edited June 17, 2013 by RobertNashville

[mikegideon]

As long as O'Mara is involved, the state prosecutor is going to have his hands full. O'mara is a really good trial lawyer. The prosecutor, from what I've seen so far, isn't fit to be in the same ring.

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

As long as O'Mara is involved, the state prosecutor is going to have his hands full. O'mara is a really good trial lawyer. The prosecutor, from what I've seen so far, isn't fit to be in the same ring.

 

Agreed.  No contest.  If de la Rionda had evidence of guilt he'd still be challenged getting a murder 2 conviction.  Without evidence and faced with competent opposition, it would just be sad if the State's conduct was not so abusive of its power and the stakes for Zimmerman so great.

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

[URL=https://www.facebook.com/pages/Law-of-Self-Defense/176397865719110]Facebook:  Law of Self Defense[/URL]

[Guest Emtdaddy1980]

I'm just wondering if the trial will last long enough for me to save up the extra funds to properly arm/equip my vehicle for my commute in and out of a neighborhood that will undoubtedly be a riot area if/when he's found not guilty. A loaded long arm in the vehicle is kosher with a HCP correct? Edited June 17, 2013 by Emtdaddy1980

[DaveS]

 

Agreed.  No contest.  If de la Rionda had evidence of guilt he'd still be challenged getting a murder 2 conviction.  Without evidence and faced with competent opposition, it would just be sad if the State's conduct was not so abusive of its power and the stakes for Zimmerman so great.

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

Facebook:  Law of Self Defense

I never did agree that the state had grounds for murder 2. I think a lessor charge may come out of this.

 

DS

[RobertNashville]

I never did agree that the state had grounds for murder 2. I think a lessor charge may come out of this.

 

DS

What evidence makes you think that Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter?

 

If Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force to defend himself against Martin's attack then he isn't guilty of either murder or manslaughter as I understand the law.

 

By the way; you haven't answered my prior question...Where did that "one-man neighborhood watch" Bovine Scatology come from?  Do you know for a fact that the neighborhood watch in that neighborhood is just Zimmerman and no one else or did you just pull that out of your behind?

Edited June 17, 2013 by RobertNashville

[KahrMan]

 A loaded long arm in the vehicle is kosher with a HCP correct?

As long as you do not have one in the chamber, then yes.

[DaveS]

What evidence makes you think that Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter; either voluntary on involuntary?

If Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force to defend himself against Martin's attack then he isn't guilty of anything (except perhaps poor judgment of trying to look out for his neighborhood).

 

By the way; you haven't answered my prior question...Where did that "one-man neighborhood watch" Bovine Scatology come from?  Do you know for a fact that the neighborhood watch in that neighborhood is just Zimmerman and no one else or did you just pull that out of your behind?

All the reports I can find stated he was the only member of the neighborhood watch and made himself the Watch Captain. If you have other information, please share it as I can't find it. I'd be interested in seeing that. I don't remember for sure, but I believe (you'll tell me if I'm wrong) his position as "Captain" was self appointed.

 

If Zman is totally justified in using deadly force, my hat is off him for using good judgement. My OPINION is, he did not!

 

Maybe you or Andrew can voice your OPINIONS on or if, the outcome of this trial will have any effect on any of us if we are (and I hope not) ever involved in a self defense shooting?

 

DS

Edited June 17, 2013 by DaveS

[TripleDigitRide]

His position, or lack thereof, in regards to the Neighborhood Watch Program is completely irrelevant to his guilt or innocence.

[mikegideon]

All the reports I can find stated he was the only member of the neighborhood watch and made himself the Watch Captain. If you have other information, please share it as I can't find it. I'd be interested in seeing that. I don't remember for sure, but I believe (you'll tell me if I'm wrong) his position as "Captain" was self appointed.

 

If Zman is totally justified in using deadly force, my hat is off him for using good judgement. My OPINION is, he did not!

 

Maybe you or Andrew can voice your OPINIONS on or if, the outcome of this trial will have any effect on any of us if we are (and I hope not) ever involved in a self defense shooting?

 

DS

 

They asked him to be the watch captain. Are you reading Mother Jones or one of those other libtard sources? Your info doesn't match mine, and I know you're not making it up. Honest question, BTW.

[DaveS]

They asked him to be the watch captain. Are you reading Mother Jones or one of those other libtard sources? Your info doesn't match mine, and I know you're not making it up. Honest question, BTW.

I think I'm reading the same as you, not sure though. Please send me the link to your info so I can follow along. Honestly!

My bad...I'm finding out he Wasn't the Captain, as his neighbor was...dang this is getting confusing!

Common, hook me up with your sources of info! Seriously!

 

DS

Edited June 17, 2013 by DaveS

[mikegideon]

I think I'm reading the same as you, not sure though. Please send me the link to your info so I can follow along. Honestly!

 

DS

 

Most of my links are real rusty now. I'm relying on memory, and some of the facts I managed to research when this case first started. I'm kinda relying on Andrew to keep it real at this point. He's in it with both feet, and has lots of expertise to boot. 

[DaveS]

I'm reading news reports also. Very confusing I know. I thought you had some good up to date things worth reading. Maybe Andrew will keep this thing in perspective.

 

DS

[RobertNashville]

All the reports I can find stated he was the only member of the neighborhood watch and made himself the Watch Captain. If you have other information, please share it as I can't find it. I'd be interested in seeing that. I don't remember for sure, but I believe (you'll tell me if I'm wrong) his position as "Captain" was self appointed...

It's not my job (or any one's elses job) to back up the assertions you make.  You are the one that made the assertion (and in a way that was clearly intended to be an insult/denigrate Zimmerman) and it was an assertion I've never head anyone else make...that's why I asked you to back up your claim.

 

If you can't or won't or don't have time or whatever; fine...but an assertion made with nothing to support it isn't worth the electrons it takes to make it.

Edited June 17, 2013 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

His position, or lack thereof, in regards to the Neighborhood Watch Program is completely irrelevant to his guilt or innocence.

Oh...but claiming Zimmerman was a self-appointed captain of a one-man neighborhood watch program is such a convenient way to insult someone. ROTFLMAO

[DaveTN]

If you look at the stories about the lawsuit settled by the HOA, I think you will find your answers to the questions about neighborhood watch issue. It is my understanding he was not part of the national recognized neighborhood watch program, but was designated as the person to call after you called 911, by the HOA.

I also agree it has no impact on this criminal case unless the defense tries to make the jury believe he had some kind of authority to act above any other resident or citizen.