Has Zimmerman Waived His Right to a Pre-Trial "Stand-Your-Ground" Hearing?

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

Zimmerman told the dispatcher Martin was running at that he was following him. How much more evidence would you like? Do you think he was walking? Was he out of breath from walking fast? If so what was he doing playing security guard?

 

Merely following somebody is not a crime under Florida law, nor does it justify the person being followed in launching a deadly force attack upon the follower.

 

Absent lawful justification for his attack upon Zimmerman, Martin was simply committing an aggravated assault and battery at best, or attempted murder at worst.  Both are more than adequate justification under Florida law for Zimmerman to use lethal force in defense of his life.

 

In order for Zimmerman's "following" of Martin to have provided legal justification for his deadly force attack upon Zimmerman the State would have to prove that Zimmerman was "following" Martin in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person in Martin's circumstances would have feared that they faced an imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm.  

 

Perhaps some types of "following" could be construed in that way.  But not under the facts in evidence in this case.  There is no evidence that Zimmerman ever closed distance with Martin in a way that could have led a reasonable and prudent person to fear a deadly attack, certainly there is no evidence he ever approached to contact distance or anything like it.  

 

Rather, Zimmerman "followed" Martin so as the keep him under observation, while Zimmerman was talking the police onto the scene with his cell phone.  (Get that part--the whole time Zimmerman was supposedly "stalking" Martin he was on the phone talking with the police--hardly the behavior of a vicious killer.)

 

Indeed, not only is there no evidence that Zimmerman closed with and confronted Martin, the only facts in evidence on the subject indicated that it was Martin who closed with and confronted Zimmerman.

 

And THAT is the dilemma facing the State (just one of many actually).

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

Edited June 13, 2013 by Law of Self Defense

[TripleDigitRide]

Zimmerman told the dispatcher Martin was running at that he was following him. How much more evidence would you like? Do you think he was walking? Was he out of breath from walking fast? If so what was he doing playing security guard?

Merely following somebody is not a crime under Florida law, nor does it justify the person being followed in launching a deadly force attack upon the follower.

Absent lawful justification for his attack upon Zimmerman, Martin was simply committing an aggravated assault and battery at best, or attempted murder at worst. Both are more than adequate justification under Florida law for Zimmerman to use lethal force in defense of his life.

In order for Zimmerman's "following" of Martin to have provided legal justification for his deadly force attack upon Zimmerman the State would have to prove that Zimmerman was "following" Martin in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person in Martin's circumstances would have feared that they faced an imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm.

Perhaps some types of "following" could be construed in that way. But not under the facts in evidence in this case. There is no evidence that Zimmerman ever closed distance with Martin in a way that could have led a reasonable and prudent person to fear a deadly attack, certainly there is no evidence he ever approached to contact distance or anything like it.

Rather, Zimmerman "followed" Martin so as the keep him under observation, while Zimmerman was talking the police onto the scene with his cell phone. (Get that part--the whole time Zimmerman was supposedly "stalking" Martin he was on the phone talking with the police--hardly the behavior of a vicious killer.)

Indeed, not only is there no evidence that Zimmerman closed with and confronted Martin, the only facts in evidence on the subject indicated that it was Martin who closed with and confronted Zimmerman.

And THAT is the dilemma facing the State (just one of many actually).

Andrew
@LawSelfDefense

There you go using facts and common sense. That's a horrible method for arguing your point.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

So, where is the threshold of 2nd degree murder
met? I don't see it. Since you'll only hear the why
from the one left alive, how are they going to get
to the edge of murder. There has to be an overwhelming circumstantial case to be made in
the absence of eyewitnesses, and those are more
likely to line up for the defense.

[TMF]

So, where is the threshold of 2nd degree murder

met? I don't see it. Since you'll only hear the why

from the one left alive, how are they going to get

to the edge of murder. There has to be an overwhelming circumstantial case to be made in

the absence of eyewitnesses, and those are more

likely to line up for the defense.

I agree that the evidence we have does not rise to the level of 2nd degree murder or indicate that there is evidence which rises the charges to that level, so either there is evidence that has not been released to the public or Zimmerman will walk away a free man.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Right! And the lady prosecutor screwed almost
everything in her mildly successful attempt to
get this to trial. She threw darts and used Ouigi
boards to concoct her case. That's what tells me
she has a very weak case for a murder conviction. I think a rational jury will laugh this
out of the courtroom, if it gets that far. Anyone
want to bet on a mistrial, or a withdrawal of the
charge?
I think the prosecution is incompetent on this one.

[Guest RedLights&Sirens]

You want me to believe that Zimmerman couldn’t push Martin off him, but was able to stop Martin from gaining control of his weapon that Martin was going after? I just can’t buy that. But we will see what the evidence shows.

So shoving a persons entire weight off of you is easier than wrestling one of their hands away from your hip?

Im 5'6, 200lbs and have been on top of much larger and stronger people but have easily restrained them. That dosnt mean they cant put up a fight. They may not have been able to get me off but they sure gave my arms a good work out.

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

Zimmerman Jury Selection -- Day Four Wrap-Up

 

Hey folks,

 

I just posted up the wrap-up for day four of jury selection in the Zimmerman case.  

 

There were two notable events of the day.

 

The first was Judge Nelson's decision to sequester the jury for the duration of the trial.  This decision clearly caught some of the prospective jurors off guard, creating considerable hardship for more than a few.  On the other hand, several jurors had expressed concerns about their safety if their anonymity was not preserved, one that she would feel like she had a bulls-eye on her back.

 

On a practical note, it's unclear to me how they truly expect to remain anonymous.  From the national public, sure.  But nobody can realistically disappear from family and work for a two to four weeks without explaining what's up.  It would seem the fact that they were a juror would inevitably get out--but maybe not until after the burning was over.

 

The second notable event was the questioning of E81.  She looked de la Rionda straight in the eye and said she believed that Zimmerman should just go home, and that he had acted in defense of himself.  When asked if he was going to have to perform "magic" to get her to change her mind she essentially told him he'd just have to do his job--work hard to convince her otherwise.  (He acknowledged that the burden of proof was, indeed, on the State.)  

 

She knew a great deal about the case.  She recalled seeing the picture from Trayvon's phone of the mairjuana, and that he had gotten into trouble a few times.  She had seen video of him refereeing a street fight, for sport, and believed that he was training to be a street fighter.  She thought he might have been looking for a reason to fight that evening, that Trayvon became aware that he was under observation by Martin and that Trayvon had been the aggressor in the conflict.  

 

A firm believer in gun rights and CCW, E81 said that the more guns there were out there in the hands of law abiding people, the safer it was.  SHe believed that everyone who was not a felon or mentally unsound should be allowed to carry a gun.

 

There's more on this wonderful young woman, [URL="http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/zimmerman-jury-selection-day-four-wrap-up/"]but you'll have to click over to the full wrap-up report, right here at Legal Insurrection[/URL], to read the rest.

 

Tomorrow we do another full day of live stream, all-day coverage of day two of jury selection.  Be sure to join us.

 

Best,

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

 

[TripleDigitRide]

 

Zimmerman Jury Selection -- Day Four Wrap-Up

 

Hey folks,

 

I just posted up the wrap-up for day four of jury selection in the Zimmerman case.  

 

There were two notable events of the day.

 

The first was Judge Nelson's decision to sequester the jury for the duration of the trial.  This decision clearly caught some of the prospective jurors off guard, creating considerable hardship for more than a few.  On the other hand, several jurors had expressed concerns about their safety if their anonymity was not preserved, one that she would feel like she had a bulls-eye on her back.

 

On a practical note, it's unclear to me how they truly expect to remain anonymous.  From the national public, sure.  But nobody can realistically disappear from family and work for a two to four weeks without explaining what's up.  It would seem the fact that they were a juror would inevitably get out--but maybe not until after the burning was over.

 

The second notable event was the questioning of E81.  She looked de la Rionda straight in the eye and said she believed that Zimmerman should just go home, and that he had acted in defense of himself.  When asked if he was going to have to perform "magic" to get her to change her mind she essentially told him he'd just have to do his job--work hard to convince her otherwise.  (He acknowledged that the burden of proof was, indeed, on the State.)  

 

She knew a great deal about the case.  She recalled seeing the picture from Trayvon's phone of the mairjuana, and that he had gotten into trouble a few times.  She had seen video of him refereeing a street fight, for sport, and believed that he was training to be a street fighter.  She thought he might have been looking for a reason to fight that evening, that Trayvon became aware that he was under observation by Martin and that Trayvon had been the aggressor in the conflict.  

 

A firm believer in gun rights and CCW, E81 said that the more guns there were out there in the hands of law abiding people, the safer it was.  SHe believed that everyone who was not a felon or mentally unsound should be allowed to carry a gun.

 

There's more on this wonderful young woman, but you'll have to click over to the full wrap-up report, right here at Legal Insurrection, to read the rest.

 

Tomorrow we do another full day of live stream, all-day coverage of day two of jury selection.  Be sure to join us.

 

Best,

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

 

Thank you for the wrap-ups. Very interesting insight into how this process operates.

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

Thank you for the wrap-ups. Very interesting insight into how this process operates.

 

Sure thing.

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

[RobertNashville]

So shoving a persons entire weight off of you is easier than wrestling one of their hands away from your hip?

Im 5'6, 200lbs and have been on top of much larger and stronger people but have easily restrained them. That dosnt mean they cant put up a fight. They may not have been able to get me off but they sure gave my arms a good work out.

I'm kind of surprised DaveTN raised this question at all...I'm a big guy but I've been tossed around a gym by guys not half my size. Just being heavy or having lot's of muscles or even being twice the size of your opponent does not mean you'll win a fight or even be able to push someone off of you.

[Links2k]

. Edited June 14, 2013 by LINKS2K

[DaveTN]

 

I agree that the evidence we have does not rise to the level of 2nd degree murder or indicate that there is evidence which rises the charges to that level, so either there is evidence that has not been released to the public or Zimmerman will walk away a free man.

 I know we have been told here by some that stated they were experts on Florida law that Florida doesn’t have “manslaughter” and Zimmerman couldn’t be convicted of anything except what he was charged with. However, I see other articles written by those claiming to be legal professionals that he could be convicted of the lesser offense of manslaughter.

I don’t know who any of these people are and I don’t pretend to know anything about Florida law. But I find it hard to believe Florida doesn’t have manslaughter. I am curious to know if the jury will be instructed whether or not they can convict of a lesser offense.

[mikegideon]

 
 I know we have been told here by some that stated they were experts on Florida law that Florida doesn’t have “manslaughter” and Zimmerman couldn’t be convicted of anything except what he was charged with. However, I see other articles written by those claiming to be legal professionals that he could be convicted of the lesser offense of manslaughter.

I don’t know who any of these people are and I don’t pretend to know anything about Florida law. But I find it hard to believe Florida doesn’t have manslaughter. I am curious to know if the jury will be instructed whether or not they can convict of a lesser offense.

 

Well... the OP is a lawyer, and is hanging out in Florida right now. I'll bet he can dig up a satisfactory answer. I'm curious myself. The news media touched on it when the Murder 2 charge was filed, but the details were vague. Besides, the media is basically full of shit anyway.

 

They have to have manslaughter. May be some rule about downgrading 2nd degree murder.

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

Hey folks,

Just FYI, Day 5 of jury selection has just kicked into gear.  Our live, all-day coverage [URL="http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/zimmerman-trial-live-jury-selection-day-5-all-day-coverage/"]can be found at Legal Insurrection here[/URL], if you're interested in following along.

 

We'll also be doing our usual end-of-day summary of events.  I'll drop a brief note when that's up, for folks who are interested.

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

 
 I know we have been told here by some that stated they were experts on Florida law that Florida doesn’t have “manslaughter” and Zimmerman couldn’t be convicted of anything except what he was charged with. However, I see other articles written by those claiming to be legal professionals that he could be convicted of the lesser offense of manslaughter.

I don’t know who any of these people are and I don’t pretend to know anything about Florida law. But I find it hard to believe Florida doesn’t have manslaughter. I am curious to know if the jury will be instructed whether or not they can convict of a lesser offense.

 

Florida certainly does have a manslaughter law, 782.07.  Manslaughter.  

 

In addition, in Florida manslaughter is a "lesser included offense" under murder 2, so the jury will be read the manslaughter instruction along with the murder 2 instruction as a matter of standard court procedure.

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

Well... the OP is a lawyer, and is hanging out in Florida right now. I'll bet he can dig up a satisfactory answer. I'm curious myself. The news media touched on it when the Murder 2 charge was filed, but the details were vague. Besides, the media is basically full of #### anyway.

 

They have to have manslaughter. May be some rule about downgrading 2nd degree murder.

 

To clarify, I am a lawyer, and I am following this trial all-day, every day, but like 99.9% of others following the trial I am NOT doing so from the Sanford court house.  

 

There's really only a few people who can actually get into the court room--it's just not very big--so everybody else is effectively doing the same thing--watching one of the various live streams of the trial over the internet.

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

Edited June 14, 2013 by Law of Self Defense

[mikegideon]

To clarify, I am a lawyer, and I am following this trial all-day, every day, but like 99.9% of others following the trial I am NOT doing so from the Sanford court house.  

 

There's really only a few people who can actually get into the court room--it's just not very big--so everybody else is effectively doing the same thing--watching one of the various live streams of the trial over the internet.

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

 

Got it.

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

ZIMMERMAN TRIAL:  EVIDENTIARY FLASHBACK

 

From the March 3, 2012 FBI report of interview with Sanford Police Department Investigator Chris Serino:

 

Serino is concerned that many of the leaks in this case are coming from within the Sanford Police Department. He listed Sgt AUTHOR BARNS, REBECCA VILLENOVE (phonetic),and TREKELL PERKINS as all pressuring him to file charges against ZIMMERMAN after the incident. Serino did not believe he had enough evidence at the time to file charges.  Serino also stated that Barns is friendly with TRACY MARTIN [Trayvon Martin's father].

 

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

[jgradyc]

Zimmerman told the dispatcher Martin was running at that he was following him. How much more evidence would you like? Do you think he was walking? Was he out of breath from walking fast? If so what was he doing playing security guard?


He’s running. [2:08]
911 dispatcher:
He’s running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman:
Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]
911 dispatcher:
OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?
Zimmerman:
The back entrance.
[It sounds like Zimmerman says under his breath, {edited} at 2:22]
911 dispatcher:
Are you following him? [2:24]
Zimmerman:
Yeah. [2:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK.
We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

 

You need to listen to the whole tape. It's clear that Zimmerman stops chasing.

 

Here is the link to the unedited 911 call by Zimmerman. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L04Vh4do6bY

 

Key points:

Zimmerman says guy is acting suspicious, like he's on drugs.

0:18 Dispatcher (18sec into video) : Is he white, black, or hispanic?

Z: He looks black.

Z: Additional references to the kid. Something's wrong with him. Has his hand inside waistband.

2:07 "He's running"

2:15: Car door opens.

2:25: Dispatch: Are you following him?

Yes (labored breathing. Wind noise )

We don't need you to do that.  (The dispatcher never tells Z to return to his vehicle.)

2:45 Wind noise stops. Zimmerman's voice returns to normal breathing. Zimmerman is talking in complete sentences. He is no longer running.

The dispatcher asks questions. Zimmerman responds in full sentences. This goes on a long time.

3:35 Z: I don't know where this kid is.

3:39 D: You want to meet them by the mailboxes?

Z: Initially says yes, then says could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?

3:50 D: Okay, yeah, that's no problem.

4:12 Call ends.

 

That's 90 seconds that Z was not chasing AND had lost visual contact with M.

Edited June 14, 2013 by jgradyc

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

Evidentiary Flashback:  Zimmerman Recounts Fight for Life, the  Day After

 

I was just reviewing the transcript of Zimmerman's questioning byInvestigator Singleton of the Sanford Police Department on February 27, 2012 (the day after the shooting,) and I was reminded of how absolutely chilling it is. 

 

It's just words on paper, a police transcript, but you can feel the tension building line by line until the deadly climax, and then falling off.  Zimmerman's responses start off as one or two words, usually  just "Yes, ma'am," and then grow to a few words, longer sentences, then a couple of sentences . . . 

 

. . . and then he describes in harrowing detail the fight for his life:

 

Zimmerman:  I, it was dark.  I didn’t even see him getting ready to punch me.  As soon as he punched me, I fell backwards, um, into the grass and he grabbed me.  He was wailing on my head and I, then, I started yelling help.  When I started yelling help, he grabbed my head and he started hitting my head into the– I, I tried to sit up and I, and yell for help and then he grabbed my head and started hitting it into the sidewalk.  Um, when he started doing that, I slid into the grass to try and get out from under him and so that he would stop hitting my head into the sidewalk and I’m still yelling for help.  And, I could see people looking and some guy yells out, I’m calling 911 and I said, “Help me, help me.  He’s killing me.”  And he puts his hand on my nose and mouth and he says, “You’re gonna die tonight,” and I don’t remember much after that.  I just remember, I couldn’t breath and then he still kept trying to hit my head against the pavement or I don’t know if there was a sign or what it was. So, I just, uh, when I slid, my jacket and my shirt came up and when he said, “You’re gonna die tonight,” I felt his hand go down on my side and I thought he was going for my firearm.  So I grabbed it immediately and as he banged my head again, I just pulled out my firearm and shot him.

 

A few lines later he recalled:

 

Zimmerman:  I didn't know what he was hitting [me with].  It felt like he was hitting me with bricks.

 

The content before and after this snippet is great stuff, too, but much too long to post here.  If you want to see more, [URL=http://lawofselfdefense.com/zimmerman-trial-evidentiary-flashback-zimmerman-recalls-fatal-fight-to-police/]it's freely available at the Law of Self Defense blog[/URL].

 

Zimmerman’s own testimony can, of course, be seen as self-serving.  Nevertheless, this is entirely legitimate evidence that the State must overcome if it is to prove Zimmerman guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt, of a crime in this case.

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

[Sam1]

Andrew, thanks for these updates. There's no way I could sort through/understand everything going on. Your posts make following the story tolerable.

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

Andrew, thanks for these updates. There's no way I could sort through/understand everything going on. Your posts make following the story tolerable.

 

Sure thing.

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

[Guest Law of Self Defense]

The Rise, and Fall, of Witness #8

 

I realize most of my posts today have been rather dire in tone, so let's lighten things up a bit.

 

Always good for a laugh is the letter orchestrated by Crump & company and written (if not authored) by Witness #8 (since identified as "Dee Dee").  Note that although she was presented as Trayvon's girlfriend, she somehow neglected to learn how to spell his name properly.  

 

[B]March 19, 2012[/B]

 

I was on the phone when Trevon [sic] decided to go to the Cornerstore.  It started to rain so he decided to walk through another complex because it was raining too hard.  He started walking then noticed someone was following him.  Then he decided to find a shortcut cause the man wouldn't follow him.  Then he said the man didn't follow him again.  Then he looked back and saw the man again.  The man started getting closer.  Then Trevon [sic] turned around and said, "Why are you following me!!  Then I heard him fall, then the phone hung up.  I called back, and that no response.  In my mind I though it was just a fight.  Then I found out this tragic story.

 

Thank you,

[Redacted]

 

Finally! The State had its own "ear"-witness who could contest Zimmerman's recounting of events.  It was the State's strongest--almost their only--piece of evidence pointing towards Zimmerman's guilt.

 

Or did they?

 

In March 2013 the State would be compelled to admit in open court that Witness #8 hd perjured herself in her sworn statement to the prosecutors.  Claims that she was a minor and that she was "Trevon's" girlfriend were also proven to be untrue.  

 

The State might still put Dee-Dee on the stand.  If they do the cross-examination should be a popcorn-worthy event.

 

Andrew

@LawSelfDefense

[Guest nra37922]

Any bets on how long it takes after GZ is found not guilty that the rioting starts

[RichardR]

Any bets on how long it takes after GZ is found not guilty that the rioting starts

I really hope that folks don't use the verdict as an excuse to riot, loot, otherwise misbehave, etc.

But it does appear that rioting in protest seems to be "the plan" so to speak.