Possible problem with a gunn I sold @ show

[Marswolf]

WOW!

I've never seen a form like that before. Since it came from this board (http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8), I guess I should have seen it.

[glockster157]

As stated before that form doesn't really carry any weight as it is not a crime to lie on it and it is not required by law.

One thing that I have wondered about is how would the ATF track a gun that has been swapped thru several individuals and then traded thru a dealer. Unless they are keeping those tics/nics check records (which is supposed to be illegal) and all the individuals that swapped the gun in question new each other (and fessed up) or kept records, how could you track it?

I do the license/HCP thing nowadays. I don't keep there info but I want to make sure I could pass a lie detector if I had to. I want to see them with my own eyes.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Seriously... this form vs no form issue has been debated more heavily, and more times, than The Rabbi's latest departure. If you don't want to use the form, cool beans... if someone wants to use the form, STFU and let them. Stop trying to brow beat them, if they want the added piece of mind of knowing the seller/buyer's info.

I swear to God... you people are more paranoid that the damn National UFO Commitee.

At the very least, you're more arguementative than my damn 6yr old. GO TO YOUR ROOMS!

[Mike.357]

I think that is the first time I have actually seen the Form 4473 Mickey.

Would it actually even be valid without a place to put thumbprints?

No wonder no one wants to fill it out.

[Guest HexHead]

PERSONAL BILL OF SALE OR TRANSFER OF A FIREARM

SELLER

Name: ___________________________________________________________________________

Address: _________________________________________________________________________

City: ________________________________________ State: ________ ZIP: ______________

Date of Birth: __________________ Country / County of Birth ____________________________

Citizenship: _________________ State and Driver’s License #: ____________________________

BUYER

Name: ___________________________________________________________________________

Address: _________________________________________________________________________

City: ________________________________________ State: ________ ZIP: ______________

Date of Birth: __________________ Country / County of Birth ____________________________

Citizenship: _________________ State and Driver’s License #: ____________________________

CERTIFICATION OF THE BUYER / TRANSFEREE

<DIR><DIR>

1. I am the actual buyer / transferee of the firearm(s) (_) Yes (_) No

2. I am under indictment or have been arrested for any felony(s) (_) Yes (_) No

3. I am a fugitive from justice (_) Yes (_) No

4. I am an unlawful user or addicted to drugs or any controlled substance (_) Yes (_) No

5. I have been declared mentally defective (_) Yes (_) No

6. I have been committed to any mental institution (_) Yes (_) No

7. I was dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces (_) Yes (_) No

8. I am subject to a court order restraining me from harassing, stalking or threatening my child or an intimate partner. (_) Yes (_) No

9. I have been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (_) Yes (_) No

10. If ever a United States Citizen, I have not renounced my citizenship (_) Yes (_) No

11. I am an illegal alien in the United States (_) Yes (_) No

</DIR></DIR>

FIREARM INFORMATION

Manufacturer Model Serial # Caliber/Gauge

1. ____________________________________________________________________________________

2. ____________________________________________________________________________________

Seller hereby certifies that the information given by me is true and correct to the best of my knowledge and that I am the legal owner of the firearm(s).

Signature: ___________________________________________________ Date: ____________________

Buyer hereby certifies that he/she is legally able to purchase the firearm(s) under applicable state and federal law and that the information given by me is true and correct to the best of my knowledge.

Signature: ___________________________________________________ Date: ____________________

What idiot dreamt that thing up?

[GLOCKMEISTER]

when your in the shower with lots of other guys.... dont drop the soap!!!!

[Mike.357]

What idiot dreamt that thing up?

ooof :D

[Fallguy]

I started to use that form, then I got to thinking why should I, that's extra crap that is not necessary. As long as I verify the person is a resident of TN, not a felon, and over the age of 18, I don't have to do anthing else. Last few trades all I do is show them my HCP, they show me theirs (covers all 3 requirments) and let it go.

I would not even worry aboput loosing that piece of spare toliet paper.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...but you really don't have to verify this information just as long as to your knowledge they are not inellgiable to purchase a firearm....and on private sales they don't have to be over 18.

Right?

[Guest grimel]

I have thought that it is wise to get the name, address, DL# and buyers signature and keep it as a way to CYA in case something ever happens and that gun was involved.

All that and $2 will get you a cup of coffee.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...but you really don't have to verify this information just as long as to your knowledge they are not inellgiable to purchase a firearm....and on private sales they don't have to be over 18.

Right?

Sure, if you like violating federal laws.

[Guest grimel]

I do the license/HCP thing nowadays. I don't keep there info but I want to make sure I could pass a lie detector if I had to.

It's not a lie detector. Unlike the movies it doesn't work worth a tinker's damn in real life.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Unlike the movies it doesn't work worth a tinker's damn in real life.

Do you have a background in polygraphy, or just basing this on further movie (mis)knowledge?

And, yes, I do realize it is far from a science... but to say it doesn't work "worth a tinker's damn in real life" is pretty bold.

[Guest grimel]

if someone wants to use the form, STFU and let them. Stop trying to brow beat them, if they want the added piece of mind of knowing the seller/buyer's info.

You don't really think this does anything do you? Okay, just how do you know the id you've just looked at has the actual name, address, and/or DL#? If you are selling to a felon a) they ain't gonna tell you they probably can find a fake ID without a lot of trouble. I'm pretty sure more than one person on this board had a fake ID to get into bars and buy beer before hitting the legal age.

If you want piece of mind worth something go through your local FFL and let them do the TICS.

[Guest grimel]

Do you have a background in polygraphy, or just basing this on further movie (mis)knowledge?

And, yes, I do realize it is far from a science... but to say it doesn't work "worth a tinker's damn in real life" is pretty bold.

Bring your polygraph and I'll answer every question true or false at your discretion and see if you can see a difference.

If you don't like that I"ll alternate between truth and lies.

Or, I'll bring someone who will know the actual answer to most of the questions and let them mark a sheet from behind a screen and compare that with the polygraph tech.

Yes, I've taken a few. Big waste of money.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

If you want piece of mind worth something go through your local FFL and let them do the TICS.

Exactly! That would get my vote all day long!

But the majority of the people doing these FTF transactions want no record whatsoever of their dealings. They're paranoid as hell and want their purchase to be nowhere in the government's system. If that's your cup of tea, so be it. But you take these same group of people and offer to handle the transaction through an FFL or show them a form and they duck and cover.

Do I personally feel that the form serves a purpose? Yes. But not because it shows 100% factual information on the person buying/selling the weapon. It's because it shows written proof that you did everything you could, to record in-depth information (right or wrong) about the other party. Should the police ever come your way, you can present the sheet... which is more than just a name... and it will add volumes to your credibility and story.

The info could be totally bogus, but it stands to show that you took the full initiative and recorded everything you could... and then had them sign the "document".

Me? I'll always go the FFL route. I have no paranoia about having my firearms documented. Should I ever do a FTF transaction, I will require said document or the buyer/seller can simply go elsewhere.

----

Now, the point of my original post... EVERYONE'S MIND IS ALREADY MADE UP. Whether you choose to use the form or hate the **** out of the idea, you have your own view on it. It won't change. You likely won't change anyone elses view on it either. So why keep chasing the tail of this arguement? Use it. Don't use it. But either way, GET THE **** OVER IT.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Bring your polygraph and I'll answer every question true or false at your discretion and see if you can see a difference.

I prefer the old rubber hose or phone book method, for getting to the truth, personally.

Like I said, it's far from a science. There's no magical needle that points to 100% truth or 100% lie. It simply notes discrepancies in your story, and gives the organization administering it something to dig into. I've taken a few also... and while definitely not accurate or admissable in court, it does do a pretty damn good job of annotating probably lies and truths. It also greatly depends on the individual administering the test, and how well they've been trained.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Lie detectors MUST be perfect, they did make a TV show based on using them!

MOMENT OF TRUTH

[Fallguy]

Sure, if you like violating federal laws.

I meant to be more specific.......

(B14) May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)? [Back]

Yes. However, possession of handguns by juveniles (less than 18 years of age) is generally unlawful. Juveniles generally may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting.

[18 U.S.C. 922(x)]

[DaveTN]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...but you really don't have to verify this information just as long as to your knowledge they are not inellgiable to purchase a firearm....and on private sales they don't have to be over 18.

Right?

My understanding is that you have to verify that they are from your state and their age.

I believe they must be over 18 for a handgun in this state. I think for FFL’s it is 21 because they are bound by federal law.

You can’t verify if they are ineligible (felon, illegal immigrant, nut case, drunk, wife beater, etc) so I don’t see how they could be expect that.

[Guest bkelm18]

What idiot dreamt that thing up?

Bahahaha. That's funny right there.

[dralarms]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...but you really don't have to verify this information just as long as to your knowledge they are not inellgiable to purchase a firearm....and on private sales they don't have to be over 18.

Right?

I parent or guardian can give a minor a handgun, but you CAN'T sell one to someone under 18 legally in the state of TN.

[Smith]

What idiot dreamt that thing up?

Buford Tune!

[Guest grimel]

Exactly! That would get my vote all day long!

It isn't my vote, it's the only way to get you "covered".

Do I personally feel that the form serves a purpose? Yes. But not because it shows 100% factual information on the person buying/selling the weapon. It's because it shows written proof that you did everything you could, to record in-depth information (right or wrong) about the other party. Should the police ever come your way, you can present the sheet... which is more than just a name... and it will add volumes to your credibility and story.

The info could be totally bogus, but it stands to show that you took the full initiative and recorded everything you could... and then had them sign the "document".

Nope, it shows you have a piece of paper. You can fill them out and have a different friend sign one for each gun you want to "sell" and keep.

[Guest grimel]

I prefer the old rubber hose or phone book method, for getting to the truth, personally.

Like I said, it's far from a science. There's no magical needle that points to 100% truth or 100% lie. It simply notes discrepancies in your story, and gives the organization administering it something to dig into. I've taken a few also... and while definitely not accurate or admissable in court, it does do a pretty damn good job of annotating probably lies and truths. It also greatly depends on the individual administering the test, and how well they've been trained.

And how much the person taking the test thinks it works. If you don't care it don't work. Someone who lies as easily as they breath (say Clinton) wouldn't cause a twitch.