Documents reveal more about KPD switch from .40-caliber Glock

[Coastie]

"Documents reveal more about KPD switch in weapons - Pistol maker Glock surprised by complaints By Don Jacobs

Sunday, March 3, 2013

 

When Knoxville Police Chief David Rausch announced in late January that the department would no longer use the .40-caliber Glock pistol that officers have carried since 2002, he didn’t mention any problems with the gun.

Rausch said the replacement gun, a .45-caliber Sig Sauer, had more stopping power than the .40-calibers. Testing among officers also revealed they were more accurate using the Sig Sauer, he said.

The chief said the switch was a sound financial decision because the life of a Glock was four years, while the Sig Sauer was good for 10 years. Although the Sig Sauer gun cost nearly twice as much as the Glock version, Rausch said the transition was a wise move.

City documents, however, indicate other factors were at work — reasons Rausch did not address at that news conference.

A letter from the city to Glock states that triggers were freezing on the guns after they were given to officers and lock pins that hold the 34 parts of the gun together were failing.

KPD today won’t discuss the gun switch.

The city’s claims of faulty weapons surprised Glock, which supplies more than 72 percent of all law enforcement agencies in the nation with guns. A representative said no other department has reported problems with the weapon.

A poll of other departments using the .40-caliber Glock revealed no other agency has encountered problems with the gun as alleged by KPD.

KPD spokesman Darrell DeBusk refused to say why the alleged performance problems were withheld from the public.

“We’re not going to discuss the issues with the Glocks,” he said. “I’ll have to refer you to (Deputy Law Department Director) Ron Mills with any questions about the Glocks.”

The Police Department is obtaining 225 of Sig Sauer’s .45-caliber P220R pistols, a dozen 1911 Sig Sauer handguns and training for 10 officers as armorers. In exchange, the Police Department is giving $13,500 cash, 630 .40-caliber Glocks, 53 12-gauge shotguns, four .22-caliber rifles, 14 submachine guns, six 37mm launchers, various gun parts and 300,000 rounds of new ammunition.

Faulty firepower?

Rausch did note performance concerns about the Glocks in an email Jan. 18 to individual members of Knoxville City Council.

Because Rausch sent the email to individual members of council and not to the council as a whole, the email was not included in the meeting packet disseminated to members of council and the media. The email was not made part of the official record of the council meeting.

The News Sentinel obtained the email Feb. 20 from the Police Department. In the email, Rausch told council members the Glock handgun “is replaced about every three years.”

Rausch explained in his email the benefits of a more powerful weapon and the differences in how a Glock and a Sig Sauer operate. And he explained why his department began seeking another weapon.

“In a shipment of what is now called the Next gen Glock, we received 10 weapons that would not fire properly new out of the box,” Rausch wrote.

“This started our process of looking at alternatives as we cannot have our officers with weapons that may or may not function when they need them.”

A News Sentinel article from January about KPD’s transition from the Glock caught the attention of law enforcement administrators across the nation. Administrators were concerned about Rausch’s statement that the Glock’s service life is four years.

That statement prompted a wave of phone calls to Glock headquarters in Smyrna, Ga., from police agencies wondering about the life of their weapons, according to Carlos Guevara, vice president and general counsel for Glock USA.

“When a large metropolitan police department makes that kind of statement, it carried some weight,” Guevara said.

Guevara said Glock officials assured law enforcement agencies that “the gun will continue to work after five years.”

Maker seeks answers

Guevara on Jan. 28 sent a letter to Knoxville Mayor Madeline Rogero complaining about Rausch’s “false and misleading information” disseminated to the public.

“The primary issue for us was the service life of the weapon,” Guevara said last week in an interview. “That was something we wanted to clarify. We warrant the piece for much longer.”

Guevara’s letter prompted a response Feb. 4 from Mills, the deputy law director, who stated the four-year service life figure came from Glock’s local representative. The local Glock representative is Craig’s Firearm Supply Police Distributors, 8761 Chapman Highway.

“If the information is incorrect, your problem lies somewhere other than with the Knoxville Police Department,” Mills wrote.

Mills also outlined in the letter performance issues with the .40-caliber Glock.

“Over the past two years, KPD has experienced repeated problems with locking pins breaking or falling out of these weapons, and four brand new handguns were found to have extremely stiff triggers,” Mills wrote.

“After firing, these weapons froze up completely and could not be fired. All told, at least thirteen new GLOCK weapons out of approximately forty issued to KPD officers over the past two years failed shortly after issuance.”

Mills wrote that a Police Department trainer saw a locking pin break on a Glock used by an officer from another agency at KPD’s firing range.

“This is information that was not provided to the media, but could have been,” Mills wrote.

‘No further statements’

DeBusk said there is no documentation of the alleged Glock performance issues raised by Rausch and Mills.

“All the conversations were over the phone or in person to make them aware of the issues, so there’s no written correspondence,” he said.

Asked if the locking pin and trigger freeze issues were discussed with other officers in the department to alert them of potential problems, DeBusk refused to respond.

Mills responded last week to a list of questions submitted regarding the Glocks and why the performance issues were kept from the public.

“We have had a full and fair opportunity to share our concerns and issues related to our experience with representatives from Glock,” Mills wrote in an email.

“We have agreed that the best course of action for both parties is to discontinue any further airing of concerns or grievances. Consequently, the City will be making no further statements or comments on this matter.”

Mills said he has spoken to a Glock representative by telephone since his Feb. 4 letter, but he declined to divulge details of the discussion.

Glock’s Guevara said his company was never informed of problems noted by the Police Department.

“This was news to us,” Guevara said.

Guevara said that if a department has a problem, a law enforcement risk manager is dispatched to correct any issues.

“We send a company representative to the agency to find out about the problem. But we didn’t get that opportunity,” he said.

In addition, Guevara said people at Craig’s Firearm Supply Police Distributor denied making any statements about the three- or four-year service life of the .40-caliber Glock. A representative of Craig’s Firearm Supply Police Distributor referred questions to the Glock national office.

The Gen4 Glock, Guevara said, has been on the market since late 2009.

“We don’t have any other agencies reporting this problem,” Guevara said. “Unless it’s reported, there’s no way to go looking for what happened.”

Departments: no objections

Public information officers for the Blount County Sheriff’s Office and the Metropolitan Nashville Police Department, both of which use the .40-caliber Glock, reported no performance issues with the weapons.

Bob Bossey, executive director of the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors, based in New Hampshire, said his organization represents 13,000 instructors in law enforcement, the military and corrections.

“We haven’t had anybody bring that to our attention.” Bossey said of performance issues alleged by the Police Department.

“There’s a lot of Glocks out there. They’re a good, quality weapon.”

The executive director of the Tennessee Sheriffs’ Association, Terry Ashe, said he’s “not heard any complaint about the Glocks.”

Ashe said he would be alarmed if he experienced the failure rate noted by the Police Department.

“We’d be flagging it and sending out emails if that was the case,” he said.

The Knox County Sheriff’s Office has been using the .40-caliber Glock since 2008 and has had no problems, according to Chief Robert Spangler, who oversees the agency’s training division. Spangler said he’s never been told of a service life for the firearms.

The Police Department’s decision to switch to another gun manufacturer, Spangler said, is no different from one agency using the Chevrolet Caprice while another organization opts for the Dodge Charger.

“It’s a personal choice and as long as the public is served, what does it matter?” he said.

“I’ve been partial to the Glock because it’s always done what we wanted it to do,” Spangler said.

“The thought of any officer pulling out a weapon and it malfunctions, that’s my worst nightmare. You want to give the officers tools they need to get home safely.”"

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2013/mar/03/documents-reveal-more-about-kpd-switch-in/?print=1

[leroy]

I'm kinda like the great Jim Crow in that great Disney production "Dumbo"....  "Ive seen a backporch swing, heard a diamond ring, but i aint never seen an elephant fly (....nor a glock fail....)!!..".   My BS meter is off the scale on this one.   Follow the money.  There aint nothin new under the sun.

 

leroy

[Guest sL1k]

I'm going to need everyone with expired glocks to send them to me for disposal.

[Garufa]

Something doesn't add up in KPD's switchover to Sigs.  Hasn't since it was first announced.

[xjsnake]

Sounds like somebody got paid off to trash Glocks (and I'm not a Glock guy at all)

[TripleDigitRide]

If they keep digging, they'll find the truth. Never owned a Glock, nor do I anticipate ever doing so, but there's no doubt the KPD is full of **** on this.

Edited March 3, 2013 by TripleDigitRide

[Reservoir Dog]

Rausch is relatively a new Chief, having been in that position since 2011.

 

Having read some of the stories on this, here is my theory:  New chief simply wants a new weapon.  He likes SIG .45s, and wants to carry them.  He can't very well just say to the city council that he wants a new firearm just because he likes them.  So, he finds a way to sell it to them (like the 4 year lifespan claim, undocumented failures, etc...).

 

I have seen this happen many times before.  I worked for agency where we carried Glock 9mm pistols.  A new agency head was appointed who was a retired Secret Service agent.  The USSS carried SIG P229s in .357SIG, so he transitioned our agency to...........surprise.......SIG P229s in .357.  Another example is a federal agency that had a new chief who was a retired FBI agent, and everybody got new badges that looked like big FBI badges.

[JPR1959]

Why does the KPD need 6 37 mm grenade launchers???  You east TN people must be really dangerous!!!  I wonder why they didn't sell the ammo on gunbroker.

[npgunner]

For the sake of full disclosure; I'm a glock guy ... but ...

They received a shipment in which 10 wouldn't fire properly out of box?!?!

I find that hard to believe; whether it's from glock, sig, s&w, beretta. these places aren't going to send a shipment to a big customer like this with that many that won't operate. they wouldn't be in business if they had that kind of track record.

Something seems fishy here ... waiting for the story to develop more. but like it's been said ... follow the money and you'll find the truth

[QuietDan]

Why does the KPD need 6 37 mm grenade launchers???  You east TN people must be really dangerous!!!  I wonder why they didn't sell the ammo on gunbroker.

Tear Gas??

[Dolomite_supafly]

Ok, this is only rumor. But I have heard that the person that is going to be paid to retrain KPD is also the same person or at least affliated with the person who was on the forfront to do the switch to Sig from Glock. The trade deal is not where the money is being made but in the training, it is the follow on training. Again, this is just rumor but everything else I have heard points to this. The trade deal isn't bad either but it probably pales in comparison to the contract for training.

 

Think about this. It costs $400 for a Glock how much do you think it costs to train an officer for a week on how to use that Glock? Probably a lot more than that $400.

 

Dolomite

[Coastie]

Glad this post got some interest and glad nobody is "shooting the messenger." I for one am learning a lot from the replies. :cheers:

[itchytriggerfinger]

I'm not a Glock guy, but will gladly tout them as one of the most reliable handguns on the market.  The stated 4 year lifespan is BS.  Half the cops I know aren't gun guys/girls and put their minimum few hundred rounds downrange to qualify each year.  They aren't wearing any gun out.  For 99% of modern service pistols you'd have to put over 10,000 rounds down the barrel before even thinking about having a possible problem.

[TMF]

Would love to hear the talk around the water cooler back at Glock. They must be none too happy to be thrown under the bus so that some chief can get a shiny new pistol.

It just seems like it'd been just fine to say, "Yep, we want out officers to carry .45s now and we got a great deal on these Sigs", and that would be the end of it. Why make a bunch of crap up? Makes it all very shady. Edited March 3, 2013 by TMF

[Guest Razz]

The 4-year lifespan part is laughable. Bar none, every used police Glock I've come across has been a gen 2. When did they stop making gen 2s?

[Murgatroy]

Yeah, Knoxville may be a "large metropolitan police department" but Glock is a major corporation. Their lawyers are going to have a field day with this.

 

If they wanted new guns, they should have said so, doing this was shady and backhanded, it will come back to bite the new CLEO.

[DWARREN123]

Yep, sounds like some kick back coming to someone in the pipeline.

[gjohnsoniv]

From what I know that isn't really what happened. It's more political then faulty equipment.

Edited March 3, 2013 by gjohnsoniv

[gregintenn]

What happens to a Glock after 4 years? Do they melt? I do not care for them simply because the are hideous looking, but one thing I've never heard about them is that they were unreliable.

[gjohnsoniv]

Why does the KPD need 6 37 mm grenade launchers???  You east TN people must be really dangerous!!!  I wonder why they didn't sell the ammo on gunbroker.

 

 

Why does the KPD need 6 37 mm grenade launchers???  You east TN people must be really dangerous!!!  I wonder why they didn't sell the ammo on gunbroker.

Because 37mm launchers are almost exclusively used for tear gas or other crowd dispersal rounds. 

[xjsnake]

Nothing wrong with the Sig, terrible way to go about getting them though. If that's actually what happened.

[Will H]

They dare insult the Holy Glock?  Say it ain't so.  they should be on their knees giving praise.

 

LOL J/k

 

Because 37mm launchers are almost exclusively used for tear gas or other crowd dispersal rounds. 

Yeah, when they say they are giving up their 40mm launchers is when you need to worry a bit.

[gjohnsoniv]

They dare insult the Holy Glock?  Say it ain't so.  they should be on their knees giving praise.

 

LOL J/k

 

Yeah, when they say they are giving up their 40mm launchers is when you need to worry a bit.

 

 

They dare insult the Holy Glock?  Say it ain't so.  they should be on their knees giving praise.

 

LOL J/k

 

Yeah, when they say they are giving up their 40mm launchers is when you need to worry a bit.

Yeah that's when I start to wonder lol.

[Caster]

These people are stupid. Four years from a Glock? BS!!
Maybe a 1911 or some other finicky boat anchor but Glocks and M&Ps run like raped apes. Somebody's gettin paid under the table. Not to say Sig ain't a good gun but to claim a Sig will outlast a Glock two and a half times over sounds like some couch commando Arfcom youtube nonsense to me.

[DaveTN]

That statement prompted a wave of phone calls to Glock headquarters in Smyrna, Ga., from police agencies wondering about the life of their weapons, according to Carlos Guevara, vice president and general counsel for Glock USA.

“When a large metropolitan police department makes that kind of statement, it carried some weight,” Guevara said.

Guevara said Glock officials assured law enforcement agencies that “the gun will continue to work after five years.”

Guevara on Jan. 28 sent a letter to Knoxville Mayor Madeline Rogero complaining about Rausch’s “false and misleading information” disseminated to the public.

Sounds like everyone is shutting up because of a threat of legal action.

Is the department going to have to have the Officers and armorers that had problems testify in court because Glock got their feelings hurt?

Ford, Chevy, whatever… every Chief and every Officer has a preference in vehicles… and guns. It’s up to the Department to have conversations with the city council about what they want and why. If those conversations need to be public… so be it. Tell Glock to go pound sand.