SB1241/HB1150 - Student Religious Liberty - Vanderbilt Police Force

[Chucktshoes]

"More than 24 million" is not really a significant number when your looking at an organizaion with an operating budget of 3.5 BILLION last year. :stunned:

Then that should make doing without it easy. The state should not be providing those funds to Vandy.

[Guest Gunbunnie]

I agree if Vandy is receving taxpayer money then it needs to be pulled. That said if Vandy has a policy that I do not like and I feel that my rights are being trampled on, I would simply find another school to goto. I would encourage my friends to come with me. Enough people start to go somewhere else Vandy will change it's policy.

[2.ooohhh]

Then that should make doing without it easy. The state should not be providing those funds to Vandy.

I don't think the state has that option, I do believe most of the income from the state is via medicaid payments to the hospital.

 

What would you suggest the state do? Tell those recieving medicaid that they now can't go to the only trauma one center in the region?

 

What would you have Vanderbilt do? Turn patients in need of care away if they only have medicaid? Add the bills of those with medicaid to the hundreds of millions in charity care the hospital already gives to uninsured patients in need yearly?

[Chucktshoes]

I don't think the state has that option, I do believe most of the income from the state is via medicaid payments to the hospital.

 

What would you suggest the state do? Tell those recieving medicaid that they now can't go to the only trauma one center in the region?

 

What would you have Vanderbilt do? Turn patients in need of care away if they only have medicaid? Add the bills of those with medicaid to the hundreds of millions in charity care the hospital already gives to uninsured patients in need yearly?

Medicaid is a wholly different conversation. If the payments to Vandy are through the hospital by way of Medicaid then that does not allow the state the ability to determine internal policies of the college. My statement of doing without state funds assumes the payments are direct payments and not for "services rendered" or the state acting as the middleman for a federal program.

 

If you want to have the conversation on the legitimacy of government providing social services by way of taxation, I will be happy to explain how it is nothing more than legalized theft in another thread.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Chucktshoes

[homeagain]

...homosexuality...."all comers" ....

 

Anybody else catch that?  Just thought it was kinda funny.  Anywho....http://www.vanderbilt.edu/info/facts/ Government grants and contracts fund 16.4% of Vandy's operating revenue.  Seems like they are having their cake and eating it too.

[2.ooohhh]

Anybody else catch that?  Just thought it was kinda funny.  Anywho....http://www.vanderbilt.edu/info/facts/ Government grants and contracts fund 16.4% of Vandy's operating revenue.  Seems like they are having their cake and eating it too.

State Government and Federal Government are different entities, Vanderbilt is not a part of either.

 

Examples of Federal Goverenment grants and contracts:

 

 

Research funding: 
To perform cutting-edge research, Vanderbilt relies on considerable funding from the National Institutes of Health, the Department of Defense, the National Science Foundation, the Department of Education, and the Department of Energy, as well as from a number of other federal research funding sources.

Agency Funding at Vanderbilt:

• National Institutes of Health
• National Science Foundation Funding at Vanderbilt
• Department of Energy Funding at Vanderbilt
• Department of Defense Funding at Vanderbilt
• Department of Education
• National Aeronautics and Space Administration
• National Endowment for the Humanities

Source

 

 

If Vandy is now part of the state government b/c it recieves State funds in the course of business as both a College and Medical Center then by extension I now work for NASA b/c they also gave Vandy money and it sounds more fun than just saying that I work at a hospital!   :woohoo:

 

 

 

The other prong of this bill that insists that VU is an extension of the government points out that they have a police force! That force consists of less than 100 officers as part of the nearly 25,000 Vanderbilt employees. . .  :squint:

Edited March 5, 2013 by 2.ooohhh

[wipfel]

By the way, I believe the ruling from Vanderbilt wasn't that Christian groups had to allow non-Christians as elected leaders.  It was that these groups couldn't require their leaders to sign a statement of faith asserting they agree to and will maintain basic Christian beliefs.  Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

[2.ooohhh]

I should also probably point out that ALL of the religious groups operating on campus received money from Vanderbilt collected from student's AcFee. All VU was attempting to do was hold it's religous organizations receiving funding to the same university wide standards as the arts, cultural, special interest, and programming groups.

 

"Each spring, the seven AcFee committees allocate nearly $1.7 million in activity fee funding to every eligible student organization. All student organizations are split into six subcategories: Arts, Cultural, Programming, Religious, Service, and Special Interests (2)."

 

Source

 

 

So when they whine about having to move off campus, it's really that they loose funding and the use of free space on campus. It's quite simple, Every student pays the "AcFee" as part of their tuition, every organization receiving funding from the AcFee pool must be open at every level to all of the students that paid the "AcFee".

 

A religious group can be as free as they wish to be, all they have to do is not apply for AcFee funding from the university.  :up: 

Edited March 5, 2013 by 2.ooohhh

[Moped]

I really don't see the big deal with Vandy's policy.  If you don't want someone in a leadership position in your organization that does not espouse that organization's view, then don't vote for them come election time.  Vandy is not saying that Christian Organizations have to have put people in leadership positions that do not follow the tenants  of that organization.  They are simply say that any individual can run for a leadership position, if they belong to that organization.  If you belong to that organization, and you don't want them in a leadership position, then don't vote for them.

[cybernorris]

What I have read does not indicate that $24 Million was Medicaid money.

 

But it is interesting to note that Vandy last year responded to the legislative action with a threat to stop treating TennCare patients.

[JayC]

Until you're a member of a small 20 student group, and 40 people who dislike your religion join your group and elect somebody who isn't a member of your religion to basically shut the group down.

 

If you are a Christian group and a Muslim can be elected by members to your “leadership”, isn’t your group pretty much hosed already?

 

[JayC]

Chuck,

 

You know I'm a big support of liberty, and think that private businesses and organizations should be free from government interference.  But is Vanderbilt really a private institution?

 

They have a special law that allows them to hire and maintain a private police force.  They receive lots of state money, and even more federal money to run the place.  They are exactly the problem, this public/private 'partnership' where they can abuse peoples rights while having the direct backing of the state to enforce those abuses.

 

This law is a good law, not because it's forcing morals on a private organization 'Vanderbilt', but because it will remove a 'perk' that they should never have had, a government backed private police force.

 

The rights enumerated in the Constitution only apply to government, not private organizations.if we were talking about UT, I'd be right there with you but we're not. Vandy is a private entity and therefore should have the ability to set its internal policies how it wishes. Of course, I view the large portions of the 1964 Civil Rights Act that apply to private business to be illegitimate. If one is not acting on behalf of the government, then one should be free to associate, or not associate as one pleases.

TGO is a great analogy. You have the right to free speech, you don't have the right to exercise it here. This is David's house, you play by his rules, or you leave. These student orgs are in Vandy's house and have to play by their rules.

 

[TMF]

Until you're a member of a small 20 student group, and 40 people who dislike your religion join your group and elect somebody who isn't a member of your religion to basically shut the group down.

Possible' but they could then just start a new group. I doubt that there are that many people dedicated to put in the time just to screw with folks for practicing a religion. If there are I would assume the university would take appropriate action to address issues such as that.

[Chucktshoes]

JayC, you make some very good points. I agree that these type of public/private partnerships are problematic, I would also agree that removal of the ability to have the private police force would generally be a positive. However, I still have very severe issues with the removal of the private police force being tied to an internal policy of what is at least a nominally private org. The funding should be removed, the private police force should be removed, but to tie that removal to an attempt to enforce a moral position makes it a bad bill. The ends do no justify the means here. It sets a terrible precedent that can't be supported. Sometimes the whys and the hows you do something are just as important as what you are doing.

 Chuck,

 

You know I'm a big support of liberty, and think that private businesses and organizations should be free from government interference.  But is Vanderbilt really a private institution?

 

They have a special law that allows them to hire and maintain a private police force.  They receive lots of state money, and even more federal money to run the place.  They are exactly the problem, this public/private 'partnership' where they can abuse peoples rights while having the direct backing of the state to enforce those abuses.

 

This law is a good law, not because it's forcing morals on a private organization 'Vanderbilt', but because it will remove a 'perk' that they should never have had, a government backed private police force.

[QuietDan]

Possible' but they could then just start a new group. I doubt that there are that many people dedicated to put in the time just to screw with folks for practicing a religion. If there are I would assume the university would take appropriate action to address issues such as that.

 

Actually, no. There ARE people dedicated to put in the time just to screw with folks for practicing a religion.  And no, it would be incorrect to assume the university, especially Vanderbilt University, would take appropriate action to address issues such as that.

 

It is possible, however, that Vanderbilt Catholic, one of the larger groups exiled by Vanderbilt, came out of all of this smelling like a rose. They got bounced from Vanderbilt Campus proper, and the Bishop of Nashville gave them Frassati House that is right behind the Cathedral of the Incarnation. (Frassati house is a beautiful old home that also once served as a Vanderbilt fraternity house and now is Catholic Church property)

 

Frassati House shares a lot line with Vanderbilt, and is in a higher traffic, better place than it ever was when it was on Vanderbilt Campus. They've been re-named University Catholic to not infringe on the august Vandy name, and they serve as many or more students because they also have Belmont and other students using the facility.

 

The Law of Unintended Consequences at work. Score one for the good guys.

 

 

They are at:

 

2004 Terrace Place, Nashville, TN  37203

Phone: 615.322.0104

http://universitycatholic.org

Edited March 11, 2013 by QuietDan

[2.ooohhh]

University Catholic is an excellent example, they have had great support from the local catholic church and have no need to request handouts of space or money from the university. If those that would seek to troll the meetings on campus follow them to the Frassati house then they can be dealt with accordingly b/c they are now on church property. win-win.

 

I do wish the university would just drop the activity fee all together, If it a group is worth having around it'll be around regardless of the handouts to promote student activities on campus. I just don't think legislation is the right way to go about it.

[TMF]

Just sounds to me that the University is right, but for the wrong reasons. I think the way this bill goes about is wrong, but for the right reasons. In the end, Vandy is private, so they are free to do what they want whether it be the denial of legitimacy based on their policy or if they just want to ban all Christian groups and build a mosque in their quad.

[Oh Shoot]

..In the end, Vandy is private...

 

Even though they get hundreds of millions per year in federal funding for research and grants and whatnot:

 

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/publicaffairs/federalrelations/research.html

 

Lots of "private" universities couldn't exist at anywhere near their same levels if they didn't.

 

- OS

Edited March 12, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[TMF]

Even though they get hundreds of millions per year in federal funding for research and grants and whatnot:
 
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/publicaffairs/federalrelations/research.html
 
- OS

Never said that I agree with that, but if that funding doesn't come with conditional agreement that they adhere to certain policies, such as allowing religious groups to dictate who they admit, then they still aren't doing anything wrong. Technically, when I was in the military I was funded by the government, but I could spend that money on hookers and booze without taxpayers getting up in arms about their money being used on something they are ideologically opposed to.