Honda Civic drinking oil

[kieefer]

97 model B16 motor. 190K miles, just did the timing belt and new tires.

 

It has alway drank a little oil but never noticed it blowing out the tailpipe. My son notice it using more oil lately and with his hectic schedule he ran it low and began to hear a noise. Seems like it lost a lot of oil at one time in his opinion. He added two quarts and the noise continues and sounds to me like it's on top, maybe not? Doesn't appear to have loss power but is blowing oil smoke out and two plugs are black.

 

We are weighing our options and haven't yet taken it to one of our mechanic friends or done a compression test.

Looking at a JDM motor replacement as one of the options and wondering if I can get one locally and if anyone has experience with swapping one out? Also, any ideas or input would be great.

 

Otherwise the car is in great shape and I realize it's a fix and keep or lose my shirt situation.

 

 

 

.

Edited March 19, 2013 by kieefer

[wareagle]

Might want to heck PCV valve.

[Guest Cogent Design]

What does your coolant look like?

If you plugs are black, coolant is fine, and you're not dripping oil, then I would suspect some valve seals or the PCV system.

 

I don't know much about the B16, but the guys on www.tennspeed.net do. They're like TGO, but with cars. lol I would check out over there.

[Murgatroy]

Sounds like a cooked ring, if he ran it too low, odds are good you have wristpin knock or rodknock.

 

You sound like you have a clue, so I won't bore you, I will just confirm what you already suspect.

 

B16s can run for a while with knock, when they fail, it will be catastrophic, but it could be a year from now.

 

JDM swaps in a Honda are cake, which is why everyone hates on them. They are plug and play, unlike Toyota or Nissan.

 

It shouldn't be hard to find one shipped, but there is a shop on Middlebrook (last I checked) just behind the Burger King. They could get you an engine.

[kieefer]

Thanks

 

The engine is making a noise like a scored bearing, cam or rod bearing we believe. 

 

One mechanic that we don't know and who acted like he didn't want to work on it said it was a broke piston ring but I'd think we would notice a loss of power...?

 

The car is in Cookeville, may take a chance and bring it home stopping ever so often to check the oil.

Edited March 2, 2013 by kieefer

[Murgatroy]

Even if the ring is cooked, it doesn't mean it is broken.

 

There is an old trick of dropping some Borax into the cylinders to score the walls and reseat the rings. It has worked for me in the past. It is not something I suggest on a healthy engine mind you, but if you are knocking, it might seal enough to not waste all your oil through blowby  on your drive home.

 

For example, when I dropped my latest engine into Chaos, my Celica, I started going through oil at a fair bit, about a quart a tank. The rings were burnt, but I never lost power. The compression was a little low, but still enough to keep the car going for another 30k. Eventually it led to catastrophic failure, but like I said, I got 30k out of it.

[glock55]

Some thoughts that might help:
1) what color is the oil out the pipe, oil smoke will be blue,white smoke is low compression and black smoke is over fueling
2) does the engine have a miss, if so does it miss all the time or just under a load
3) does it smoke all the time,under load or while decelerating
4) a main bearing will be a deep knock gets worse under load, a rod will be a lighter double knock that
mimics eng rpm. A broken ring will be a light knock not effected by rpm. A main or rod bearing knock
should diminish when spark plug wire is pulled. A broken ring will not be effected when plug wire pulled.
5) if smokes all the time ( at idle ) pull plug wires one at time smoke should diminish when bad cylinder located.
6) DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES PUT BORAX IN THAT ENGINE. This advice comes from a ASE master mechanic with 36
years experience. Edited March 2, 2013 by glock55

[kieefer]

Some thoughts that might help:

1) what color is the oil out the pipe, oil smoke will be blue,white smoke is low compression and black smoke is over fueling

2) does the engine have a miss, if so does it miss all the time or just under a load
3) does it smoke all the time,under load or while decelerating
4) a main bearing will be a deep knock gets worse under load, a rod will be a lighter double knock that
mimics eng rpm. A broken ring will be a light knock not effected by rpm. A main or rod bearing knock
should diminish when spark plug wire is pulled. A broken ring will not be effected when plug wire pulled.
5) if smokes all the time ( at idle ) pull plug wires one at time smoke should diminish when bad cylinder located.
6) DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES PUT BORAX IN THAT ENGINE. This advice comes from a ASE master mechanic with 36
years experience.

 

I've listened to it once and didn't see any smoke at idle but he has seen it blowing blue smoke upon acceleration. He pulled the plugs and two of them were black, black with shoot or oil I don't know.

Appears to run fine without a miss or power loss.

The noise or grinding quietens a little when it warms up at idle but increases with rpms. I was first thinking a cam bearing, starving the topend for oil but now he says it blowing smoke.

 

I've heard about removing the plug, at first I didn't think this would tell you about rod knock but removing the wire eliminates the combustion explosion therefore less stress on the rod/piston...correct? He's done this and the noise doesn't change

 

Do you know anyone who sells JDM motors in Mid TN? I'd rather trust one of them than a junkyard engine. Thanks

 

 

I have thought about pulling the oil pan and yanking the pistons out from that end if it can be done on a Honda. That would be a cheap fix if the cylinders or crank's not scored. Probably not what an ASE mechanic would advise but still an option.

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited March 2, 2013 by kieefer

[Murgatroy]

I appreciate a proffessional mechanic's input, and I value them in society. However, as a very experienced shadetree mechanic, I don't always do things the 'right' way. Doesn't mean it doesn't work.

 

I hate rebuilding an engine in the vehicle, I did a poor man bearing replacement like that once, I will never do it again.

[glock55]

I've listened to it once and didn't see any smoke at idle but he has seen it blowing blue smoke upon acceleration. He pulled the plugs and two of them were black, black with shoot or oil I don't know.

Appears to run fine without a miss or power loss.

The noise or grinding quietens a little when it warms up at idle but increases with rpms. I was first thinking a cam bearing, starving the topend for oil but now he says it blowing smoke.

 

I've heard about removing the plug, at first I didn't think this would tell you about rod knock but removing the wire eliminates the combustion explosion therefore less stress on the rod/piston...correct? He's done this and the noise doesn't change

 

Do you know anyone who sells JDM motors in Mid TN? I'd rather trust one of them than a junkyard engine. Thanks

 

 

I have thought about pulling the oil pan and yanking the pistons out from that end if it can be done on a Honda. That would be a cheap fix if the cylinders or crank's not scored. Probably not what an ASE mechanic would advise but still an option.

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

i would not venture a guess on cause of problem over the internet. i would recomend you find a mech you trust and have him check. i work for penske truck leasing so dont work on cars and stopped doing side work years ago. have fallen out of loop on where to buy auto parts. you mentioned a timing belt replacement and then this issue started may be connected. i would not recommend tearing engine down without being sure of the source of the problem. wish i could be more help but dont want to give wrong advise and cost you unnecessary expense.

 

I appreciate a proffessional mechanic's input, and I value them in society. However, as a very experienced shadetree mechanic, I don't always do things the 'right' way. Doesn't mean it doesn't work.

 

I hate rebuilding an engine in the vehicle, I did a poor man bearing replacement like that once, I will never do it again.

nothing wrong with a shadetree mech and i didnt mean to inplie that. as a mech i dont always go by the book either and your correct very often it does work.i admire those guys that can work on todays technology as shadetree mechanics as it is tough to do even with the factory training i receive. with the technology coming in the near furture i do think the days of the shadetree mech are numbered. the 2013 volvos we run have 13 onboard computers and i hear the auto industry is headed in that direction.

[Murgatroy]

nothing wrong with a shadetree mech and i didnt mean to inplie that. as a mech i dont always go by the book either and your correct very often it does work.i admire those guys that can work on todays technology as shadetree mechanics as it is tough to do even with the factory training i receive. with the technology coming in the near furture i do think the days of the shadetree mech are numbered. the 2013 volvos we run have 13 onboard computers and i hear the auto industry is headed in that direction.

Cool, I didn't want to come of as an arse.

 

Computers aren't fun. I miss the old days of tuning your jets from pulling your plugs, not hooking up a computer and monitoring your A/F. I agree that it is harder to be a shadetree mechanic these days, but I doubt it is going away. Even with all the computers, we are finding ways to hack and tune. When I first got into imports I was very intimidated by all the wiring, the sensors and so forth. After a few years, you just learn to adapt.

 

A lot of guys are just going to aftermarket standalone ECUs that can read the stock sensor, then be modified. It is fascinating. The big difference today though, once you start hacking, your reliability is gone. When you were just swapping jets and twisting a distributor to adjust timing it was easy. Now you have to pull half the engine apart and run adjustable cam gears and modify your mechanical timing for advance or retard. Sure, coil packs are nice, but man, I long for the good old days.

[gregintenn]

I had an Accord that had the engine block crack. My oil was going into the coolant. Have you checked that?

 

What is it about new tires, brakes, and timing belt that brings on this sort of thing? Mine even had a full tank of gas.

Edited March 2, 2013 by gregintenn

[I_Like_Pie]

Run  a compression check on each cylinder...cheap and easy way to see if it is a cylinder ring problem.  Get tool from harbor freight with coupon or rent one from O'reilys.  If one is 15%+ off the others you have a problem...or if ALL of them are low your have another problem.

 

someone mentioned PCV valve... stuck open will blow oil right into intake.

 

 

 

For less than $1000 and a weekend of decent work you should be able to swap that engine out if the car is worth it to you.  If no rust and nice paint I would say that it is about time around 200k

[kieefer]

Thanks, this discussion got me to thinking about a compression test. May be best before we bring it home too. I appreciate everyones comments, it really helps to sort things out. 

No one has mentioned if and where a good engine can be found in MId-Tn, Grooms rebuilds come to mind but my son says the JDM motors are a good and cheaper bet.

 

If I can git'r'done for around a grand it would probably be worth it and I might as well put a new clutch in too.

 

The PVC will also be checked and may be the cause of the sudden loss of oil...but actually I think he just failed to keep an eye on the level.

Not sure when I can get up there to work on it and really don't care to work in the freezing weather. Time is also not an issue, he 's got another car to drive.

[Tncobra]

+1 on comp check. But, do a wet and dry one.

Pull fuse on fuel pump.

Do dry check.

Add small amount of oil on wet check.

Dry check low can be rings or valves.

Wet check can be rings/pistons/head gasket. (Oil can't raise comp on bent valve.) oil will raise compression if the rings are worn but not cracked. A bad valve, comp won't be raise in the wet test.

Both will narrow what cylinder it is.

Cheers Edited March 3, 2013 by Tncobra

[Murgatroy]

JDM engines are cheaper than a rebuild. With Japanese engines and the tolerances they run, I have had better experience with buying a low mileage JDM engine (they junk the cars around 40K for tax reasons) than with rebuilding.

 

 

Most folks buy an engine from eBay and have it shipped, or one of the many dealers on the internet. I don't know of any one local that deals in them.

[crex23]

If you do a compression test be sure to unplug the distributor or you can fry your coil in a hurry. As far as buying a JDM motor I've bought 3 from hmotorsonline.com. They are a place in Cali that imports the engines then ships to a large freight depo and you pick the motor up. No complaints at all about any of my motors, they are one of, if not the best place to buy from. Motor swaps on a Honda are cake too :)

[knoxrocks222]

If you swap it put a b18c in it with a type r tranny with a ls 5th gear....you will like it a lot more trust me

[kieefer]

If you swap it put a b18c in it with a type r tranny with a ls 5th gear....you will like it a lot more trust me

 

What about the electrical, will the car it talk to the B18c or are there electrical components also to swap? I feel safer doing a direct swap assuming I'll have to do one. 

[Volphin]

I'm also a certified ASE Master Tech.  I agree with Glock55.

 

Some thoughts that might help:
1) what color is the oil out the pipe, oil smoke will be blue,white smoke is low compression and black smoke is over fueling
2) does the engine have a miss, if so does it miss all the time or just under a load
3) does it smoke all the time,under load or while decelerating
4) a main bearing will be a deep knock gets worse under load, a rod will be a lighter double knock that
mimics eng rpm. A broken ring will be a light knock not effected by rpm. A main or rod bearing knock
should diminish when spark plug wire is pulled. A broken ring will not be effected when plug wire pulled.
5) if smokes all the time ( at idle ) pull plug wires one at time smoke should diminish when bad cylinder located.
6) DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES PUT BORAX IN THAT ENGINE. This advice comes from a ASE master mechanic with 36
years experience.

[Volphin]

Ok kieefer, here's what I would do... 

 

This is a Honda powerplant.  They last a long time with proper care and feeding.

I would weigh carefully how long I was going to keep this vehicle.  If you choose to keep it, and hey, car payments are not cheap, then get a good (low mileage) used engine from a recycler.  My 98 Honda Van motor has one with 327,000 on the clock... they are built like tanks.  Use car-part.com to find one near you.  If you find one in my neck of the woods, I can pick it up for you as I'm in the Nashville area about once a week.  Replacement is easy, and all of your semi-new components will swap over.  Many of the yards offer a guarantee with their engines as well.  Also, keep in mind that there are many B16 variants out there.  Your PCM will dictate what you can run, but check your VIN and engine block number to get the variant nailed down and go with that.  

 

This chassis IMHO would not qualify for new crate engine.  

 

HTH 

 

V

 

Thanks, this discussion got me to thinking about a compression test. May be best before we bring it home too. I appreciate everyones comments, it really helps to sort things out. 

No one has mentioned if and where a good engine can be found in MId-Tn, Grooms rebuilds come to mind but my son says the JDM motors are a good and cheaper bet.

 

If I can git'r'done for around a grand it would probably be worth it and I might as well put a new clutch in too.

 

The PVC will also be checked and may be the cause of the sudden loss of oil...but actually I think he just failed to keep an eye on the level.

Not sure when I can get up there to work on it and really don't care to work in the freezing weather. Time is also not an issue, he 's got another car to drive.

[kieefer]

Ok kieefer, here's what I would do... 

 

This is a Honda powerplant.  They last a long time with proper care and feeding.

I would weigh carefully how long I was going to keep this vehicle.  If you choose to keep it, and hey, car payments are not cheap, then get a good (low mileage) used engine from a recycler.  My 98 Honda Van motor has one with 327,000 on the clock... they are built like tanks.  Use car-part.com to find one near you.  If you find one in my neck of the woods, I can pick it up for you as I'm in the Nashville area about once a week.  Replacement is easy, and all of your semi-new components will swap over.  Many of the yards offer a guarantee with their engines as well.  Also, keep in mind that there are many B16 variants out there.  Your PCM will dictate what you can run, but check your VIN and engine block number to get the variant nailed down and go with that.  

 

This chassis IMHO would not qualify for new crate engine.  

 

HTH 

 

V

 

Thanks. 

 

I had one mechanic give me a quote with a new crate motor, $4800.  :eek:

No way I'm going that route. 

I may be in touch.  :up:

[knoxrocks222]

For the b18 you will need the engine, obd1 ecu, integra axles, integra throttle cable, integra motor mounts, and wire harness. My friend has a 300 hp b18 swapped turbo 95 civic hatch, probably the most fun you can have with your clothes on

The easiest thing would be to get a nice b16a from Hmotors.......over on the jeep forums we like to all get together and order pizza and install lifts......I think a B series motor swap would take about 4 to 5 hours if yoy could find a way to get it to my buddys shop, im sure the 3 of us could knock it out. If your ok with that ill get with him and see when a good tome would be to swap that engine Edited March 7, 2013 by knoxrocks222

[kieefer]

We went to get it today, rented a tow dolly to bring it home just to be safe.

 

Spent some time with it this afternoon, having second thoughts about the seriousness, doesn't appear as bad as I was lead to believe.

 

It still makes a noise but I unloaded it off the dolly about 2 miles from the house and followed it home, did blow out oil like it would have a cracked ring or oil blowing past the rings. Drove it about ten miles later and the power is fine, just makes a racket. 

Pulled the plugs and all of them have a nice golden tan color like the mixture is perfect. Rotated the motor and watched the valve train move without anything unusual.

 

Got to work the next two days but intend to do a compression test for starters.

 

The noise now sounds lower and on the clutch side, not so much in the valve train like I originally thought.  :shrug:

[S&WForty]

JDM engines are cheaper than a rebuild. With Japanese engines and the tolerances they run, I have had better experience with buying a low mileage JDM engine (they junk the cars around 40K for tax reasons) than with rebuilding.

What does JDM stand for? Until I read your post, I assumed it was a company like Jasper selling remans.