The BEST .380 Defensive Load

[Guest jackdog]

Fmj is the best defense round for the .380. They rarely have feed problems and will give you the best penetration. Now then for those that talk about that caliber being useless how many of you guys have seen the results of two or three .380 rounds in a human chest cavity.

[Guest TheBulldog]

a good freind of mine is a Air Marshal he lives in ALT. GA. and he still carries a 357 SIG Sauer pistols with hollow-point

Air marshals carry automatic .357 SIG Sauer pistols with a 12-round cartridge. The bullets are hollow-point and expand on entering a body

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-12-07-air-marshals_x.htm

Federal Air Marshals carry the SIG-Sauer P229 service pistol in a .357 SIG chambering.[3]

The P229 can be chambered in 9 mm, .40 S&W or .357 SIG. Changing between .40 S&W and .357 SIG is as simple as switching out the barrel. Conversion barrels, from companies such as Bar-Sto Precision Machine[4], also allow a P229 or P226 to change between a .40 S&W/.357 SIG to a 9 mm caliber. Magazines shipped with .357 SIG models have a "necked" throat that will only accept that caliber. Magazines shipped with .40 S&W models will accept either caliber. The 9 mm model cannot be converted to another caliber

"and the p229 is not chambered in 380

Well DUH, I said they use frangible ammo not the .380.

No one reads anymore!

[molonlabetn]

No, they went frangible a while back, hence the silver tip slug.

Actually, they changed FROM frangible TO Gold-Dots a while back... finding that Glaser and Magsafe rounds have poor terminal performance (despite the hype).

[Magiccarpetrides]

Molon,

That double tap ammo site you listed is very cool, but some of their ballistics claims such as 1100fps from a .38spl + P out of a short barrel seem too good to be true. Have you tried any of their ammo?

Bulldog,

Go to www.boxotruth.com to see why frangible ammo is crap for self defense.

[molonlabetn]

Yes, and though I only ever had one opportunity to see some of the loads go through a chrono, it has always lived up to its claims. Buffalo Bore loads to similar performance levels.

[Guest TheBulldog]

Fmj is the best defense round for the .380. They rarely have feed problems and will give you the best penetration. Now then for those that talk about that caliber being useless how many of you guys have seen the results of two or three .380 rounds in a human chest cavity.

Well like I said before in another thread, gang bangers kill each other with cheapo mexican made 380s all the time!

The 380 is one of the most popular rounds for "Saturday Night Specials" around ever, why?

It's Cheap, Light and readily available.

Any round you hit the torso with 2 or 3 times will do major damage.

Are some rounds better, YES, but the .380 is not too bad say compared to the 22 Magnum LR or even .32APC.

I think it is more machismo that makes people knock the 380 round.

If all else fails, and the bad guy does not drop, a head shot then is in order anyway.

There was a drug dealer up north, Titus Jones was his name, a rival shot him 5 times in the belly from less than 10 feet away, he lived and took himself to the hospital where they pulled the bullets out!

A week later he was back on the street until he got locked up for 25 years.

I still think he is locked up, point is he LIVED.

All you LEOs can look up the name you'll get TONS of hits on him.

[Oh Shoot]

...a rival shot him 5 times in the belly from less than 10 feet away, he lived and took himself to the hospital where they pulled the bullets out!...

"belly" shots, meaning intestinal cavity, are seldom fatal in the short term, even with big calibers.

Peritonitis is a biggie here, and that can set in within hours.

Not to mention intestine loss depending on location/extent of the damage.

Belly area is really NOT a prime stop threat area, though.

- OS

[molonlabetn]

Well like I said before in another thread, gang bangers kill each other with cheapo mexican made 380s all the time!

The 380 is one of the most popular rounds for "Saturday Night Specials" around ever, why?

It's Cheap, Light and readily available.

Any round you hit the torso with 2 or 3 times will do major damage.

Are some rounds better, YES, but the .380 is not too bad say compared to the 22 Magnum LR or even .32APC.

I think it is more machismo that makes people knock the 380 round.

If all else fails, and the bad guy does not drop, a head shot then is in order anyway.

There was a drug dealer up north, Titus Jones was his name, a rival shot him 5 times in the belly from less than 10 feet away, he lived and took himself to the hospital where they pulled the bullets out!

A week later he was back on the street until he got locked up for 25 years.

I still think he is locked up, point is he LIVED.

All you LEOs can look up the name you'll get TONS of hits on him.

I don't follow your logic there, as it applies to self-defense...

Any caliber can indeed kill. That's not the point though, we want fast incapacitation instead of a slow bleed-out. That can medically only occur if the CNS is disabled, or the perp gives up their attack due to shock.

I don't think any of us wants to count on 'shock factor' when our life is on the line, thus the obvious disdain for rounds with quick energy dump and insufficient penetration when the best option is maximum penetration, especially when using a low powered caliber such as .380acp.

[Guest TheBulldog]

I don't follow your logic there, as it applies to self-defense...

Any caliber can indeed kill. That's not the point though, we want fast incapacitation instead of a slow bleed-out. That can medically only occur if the CNS is disabled, or the perp gives up their attack due to shock.

I don't think any of us wants to count on 'shock factor' when our life is on the line, thus the obvious disdain for rounds with quick energy dump and insufficient penetration when the best option is maximum penetration, especially when using a low powered caliber such as .380acp.

The point is you could carry an RPG and have it go through the BG and not have the BG go down.

Where you put them is what counts.

Then all the ballistic junk will help your round cause trauma.

If you fear a bad hit then you need a round that causes Trama and shock.

A frangible .380 can give you devastating trauma when applied in the torso.

A good hit with ANY caliber will just make the BG go down, even with a .380.

BUT, it matters not how you hit em if you do not hit a critical part of the anatomy with ANY ROUND.

Why the .380 is considered so "Underpowered" because too many people did not hit a critical part of the anatomy.

So bad marksmanship under pressure gets tossed aside to no shock with hits and the round gets a bad rap.

You need good HITS to make the BG go down.

The power of the round may not knock em down in a 9MM lite (What I think of .380s as) but you can achieve good ballistic shock with good hits.

Some believe ball ammo is best because penetration helps shock, but you can get a through and through hit that does nothing but STING the BG and he or she will STILL FIGHT.

Shot placement is the key here, no matter WHAT the caliber being used.

You should worry more about getting good under stress free conditions so you can make a good hit when the fecal matter hits the fan.

If you do not have that kind of time, things like frangible ammo and sabot loads will help, but very little.

Shot placement is the key.

[Guest TheBulldog]

I don't follow your logic there, as it applies to self-defense...

Any caliber can indeed kill. That's not the point though, we want fast incapacitation instead of a slow bleed-out. That can medically only occur if the CNS is disabled, or the perp gives up their attack due to shock.

I don't think any of us wants to count on 'shock factor' when our life is on the line, thus the obvious disdain for rounds with quick energy dump and insufficient penetration when the best option is maximum penetration, especially when using a low powered caliber such as .380acp.

Oh old Titus was shot with a 357 colt python 4 incher

[memphismason]

I found this chart that is all about the performance of the .380

http://www.geocities.com/bersa_thunder/cartridges.html

[gunsablazin]

I'm sticking with FMJ in my P32, and praying that I never need the darn thing. I carry it as a back up gun to my Glock 22 or J-frame .38 so it is unlikely if I'll ever use it off the range. It works and is suprisingly accurate and beats the hell out of nothing and I suppose the same could be said for the slightly more potent .380, but I would not use one as a primary weapon unless it was all I had.

[LA_357SIG]

When the wife or I carry the Bersa I load it with Corbon 80gr DPX. I think I read about them in a gun rag and it was the best one out of the few they tested.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

For .380ACP, stick with FMJ for practice and defense.

With the POSSIBLE exception of the Hornady XTP, there is not a .380 JHP made that expands AND penetrates deep enough to be recommended for effective self defense.

FWIW, my general rule of thumb:

For calibers that can reliably expand AND penetrate approx 12" of calibrated gel...JHP.

For calibers that can reliably expand OR penetrate approx 12" of calibrated gel...FMJ.

We WANT expansion...we NEED penetration.

Plus, you get the added benefit of better feed reliability in small autos (which sometimes can be finickier than service-sized pistols).

Additional thoughts on incapacitation...

I think it makes sense to break down incapacitation into four types.

1. Instant Ideal situation. Reliably achieved only by CNS damage.

2. Rapid Good, but not ideal. Typically achieved by blood pressure loss to the point of death or unconsciousness. This can take 10-12 seconds with a fatal wound (they're dead, they just don't know it yet). 10-12 seconds in a lethal force encounter is an eternity.

3. Destructive Trauma Better than nothing. A shot that destroys the functional use of, say, an arm. Better him than you, but a "true believer" will attempt to adapt and overcome and still be a threat to you.

4. Psychological It happens, but cannot be counted on. Subject "chose" to be incapacitated.

People are not impressed with being shot with handguns! I say this based on my personal experience in dealing with many shootings.

The handgun round that has the best chance of achieving incapacitation, in any form, is one that...

A. Penetrates 12-18" in bare and clothed calibrated gel. Not all SD shootings are unobstructed, frontal COM shots. Think glass, forearms, clothing, muscle and fat.

B. Expands to roughly 1.5x the original caliber diameter.

Shallower penetrating rounds generally do not do as well. They MAY have limited use in certain situations but, IMO, should not be used for general SD.

Regards

Edited December 14, 2009 by Todd@CIS

[Guest Mugster]

Additional thoughts on incapacitation...

I think it makes sense to break down incapacitation into four types.

1. Instant Ideal situation. Reliably achieved only by CNS damage.

2. Rapid Good, but not ideal. Typically achieved by blood pressure loss to the point of death or unconsciousness. This can take 10-15 seconds with a fatal wound (they're dead, they just don't know it yet). 10-15 seconds in a lethal force encounter is an eternity.

3. Destructive Trauma Better than nothing. A shot that destroys the functional use of, say, an arm. Better him than you, but a "true believer" will attempt to adapt and overcome and still be a threat to you.

4. Psychological It happens, but cannot be counted on. Subject "chose" to be incapacitated.

People are not impressed with being shot with handguns! I say this based on my personal experience in dealing with many shootings.

The handgun round that has the best chance of achieving incapacitation, in any form, is one that...

A. Penetrates 12-18" in calibrated gel. Not all SD shootings are unobstructed, frontal COM shots. Think glass, forearms, clothing, muscle and fat.

B. And/Or expands to roughly 1.5x the original caliber diameter.

Shallower penetrating rounds generally do not do as well. They MAY have limited use in certain situations but, IMO should not be used for general SD.

Regards

+1

.45 acp 230gr anything is pretty hard to beat at close range. A .380 is a real pea shooter. Use ball.

[Luckyforward]

Okay . . . okay . . . I'm the one that raised the question in the first place. And since everyone thinks I shouldn't shoot a .380, I've decided on this instead:

[Luckyforward]

Just notice this was moved . . . I apologize if I posted it in the wrong place.

[Oh Shoot]

Okay . . . okay . . . I'm the one that raised the question in the first place. And since everyone thinks I shouldn't shoot a .380, I've decided on this instead:

Methinks that's going to require an expensive custom concealment holster.

- OS

[Luckyforward]

Yeah . . . I plan to go as the Hunchback of Notre Dame . . .

[Guest TheBulldog]

Okay . . . okay . . . I'm the one that raised the question in the first place. And since everyone thinks I shouldn't shoot a .380, I've decided on this instead:

My Ex Motherinlaw could do that!

The flame was green though!

<~~~RUNS OFF SCREAMING AND SHUDDERING AT THE :sadwave:FLASHBACK!

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

Okay . . . okay . . . I'm the one that raised the question in the first place. And since everyone thinks I shouldn't shoot a .380, I've decided on this instead:

when you start carrying this are you going to try to carry concealed

[gunsablazin]

Okay . . . okay . . . I'm the one that raised the question in the first place. And since everyone thinks I shouldn't shoot a .380, I've decided on this instead:

You can carry a .380 if that suits you of course, but there are better choices some where between the .380 and the somewhat impractical flame thrower. You could always combine the two and carry a snubby .357 mag. which will launch an effective bullet and set things on fire.

[Guest Grout]

Just carry a small can of hairspray and a Bic lighter.Instant flame thrower.

[Guest TheBulldog]

If you can shoot well with a .380 why not carry it?

[DaveTN]

If you can shoot well with a .380 why not carry it?

Because it is just one step above a spit ball and a straw. In an armed encounter it has very little chance of stopping the bad guy from shooting you.

You have no idea how well you will shoot at something other than a piece of paper.

It is however better than nothing. If that’s how you think a carry weapon should be described...go for it.