9mm AMMO comparison...guess who wins??

[I_Like_Pie]

whilst trying to find which one shoots best through a particular gun through trial and error.

That is the key...it is just easier to do while reloading as you have total control. It can be done with factory ammo, but it takes a bunch of time/money and you are at the mercy of the factory in case they decide to change things a bit.

[Guest tngunman]

dang, the Wolf looks ok

[Guest Mugster]

That is the key...it is just easier to do while reloading as you have total control. It can be done with factory ammo, but it takes a bunch of time/money and you are at the mercy of the factory in case they decide to change things a bit.

Not to mention different lots of the same factory ammo can hit different POI.

[molonlabetn]

So... would it be fair to say that reloading is only really worthwhile for people who either:

Shoot a LOT

or,

Shoot for extraordinary accuracy at long ranges

??? Since, as a defensive handgunner primarily, I'm not at all concerned with anything better than fast, repeatable A-zone hits from 5-15yd... perhaps the cheapest commercial loads are the best match for the vast majority of shooters. ie. Wolf and S&B

[DaveTN]

As has been pointed out to the 9th degree...you will never see any Bullseye or centerfire rifle competition where the top 10 are not reloaders. That and there are thousands upon thousands of such tests in publication.

Reloading is not rocket science.

The components are EXACTLY the same as the ones used for fancy pre-loaded ammunition. The difference is that reloads are tailored for a particular gun and caliber...unlike factory ammo which is loaded for caliber only. The precision of a $100 reloading setup from midwayusa can easily produce the same tolerances as a $100,000 reloading setup from a factory...even if Bubba does it in his garage.

I just don't understand why people believe that if it comes from the factory it must be superior. 0.001 is 0.001, 5grains is 5 grains, etc... doesn't matter what the source. Anyone who has ever reloaded knows this. Again...it isn't complicated.

Well here’s why I believe that, but as I said I don’t know it to be fact. I’m not being a smart azz, this stuff is interesting to me and I want to learn.

I have never reloaded a round in my life but I have built tooling for progressive stamping and multi-slide presses that can hold dimensional tolerance in the ten thousandths of an inch range; consistently day in and day out for millions of parts. (I have never seen a commercial ammunition loading press either are you saying they are the same as what Bubba has?). But as I understand it the sizing, cutting to length, and setting the bullet to an exact depth would be critical for a highly accurate round. Right??

So I’m having trouble believing that Bubba in his garage with his $25 Lyman calipers and his $200 Lee press can compete with today’s automation. Maybe he can, someone believes that he can or we wouldn’t be hearing all these “Reloads are more accurate than factory†statements.

So fill me in… what’s he doing that the big boys can’t do to make an accurate round?

Now… let’s addresses the whole “you will never see any Bullseye or centerfire rifle competition where the top 10 are not reloadersâ€. Doug Koenig, Julie Goloski, and Jerry Miculek (I know they are handgun shooters but I couldn’t think of the names of any rifle pro’s.) all load their own ammunition? I would believe that it is custom loaded, but by who?.... not Bubba.

I just don't understand why people believe that if it comes from the factory it must be superior. 0.001 is 0.001, 5grains is 5 grains, etc... doesn't matter what the source. Anyone who has ever reloaded knows this. Again...it isn't complicated.

Bubba isn’t measuring a thou with his dial calipers.

And no, it isn’t rocket science; I would guess it’s mostly Physics, Metallurgy and ballistics.

[Guest Mugster]

So... would it be fair to say that reloading is only really worthwhile for people who either:

Shoot a LOT

or,

Shoot for extraordinary accuracy at long ranges

??? Since, as a defensive handgunner primarily, I'm not at all concerned with anything better than fast, repeatable A-zone hits from 5-15yd... perhaps the cheapest commercial loads are the best match for the vast majority of shooters. ie. Wolf and S&B

There's some truth in that. Pricing it up, I doubt you can beat wolf's 9mm price of 17.5 cents per shot delivered, and its pretty accurate stuff although its dirty if your going to shoot 250+ shots per range session. I guess you need to define shooting alot, also.

Although building hunting class ammo either handgun or rifle...thats the only way I can shoot the heavier calibers, even for 20-30 shots. Even .243 is a buck a shot.

Here's an example in .223 plinking ammo I just went through. M855 is going for about .40 a shot in the door for a case (or $400 for 1000). Supposed to be a good budget bullet/ammo for shooting longer range. So I wanted to try it:

http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8495&dir=18|725

I picked up 500 bullets at the fun show for $58 including tax. To handload those up, I'll use about 1.65 pounds of powder and 500 primers, costing me $23.10 of powder and roughly $17 in primers. I have plenty of .223 brass...I have about 500 pieces of remington thats all range pickup in good shape, so i've been using that.

So $98 for 500...and I can get the SS109 bullets alot cheaper if i like em by buying 3500 bulk from wideners in one go. So I'm under .20 for a test lot of 500 rounds, and i can get it down alot lower, mebbe .16-.17. Saved about $100 i'd say just on the test lot.

Now i guess you could say i could go buy wolf rifle ammo and forget it. But you try shooting even on to a pie plate at 200 yards with wolf m193 and see how it does. And the consistency scares me. Nothing in a steel case thats 62gr ain't going to clock 3100 fps either. Mine will, if i have to change powder to get there. I believe I'm there right now. Probably go test this lot of 120 rounds for accuracy and velocity...and if i like it, a bulk 3500 bullet order will be forthcoming.

I guess if your going to go down to an indoor range and shoot offhand at 25 yards, it doesn't matter a whit. Or take your rifle out once/twice a year and crack off a few rounds.

[Guest Mugster]

Well here’s why I believe that, but as I said I don’t know it to be fact. I’m not being a smart azz, this stuff is interesting to me and I want to learn.

I have never reloaded a round in my life but I have built tooling for progressive stamping and multi-slide presses that can hold dimensional tolerance in the ten thousandths of an inch range; consistently day in and day out for millions of parts. (I have never seen a commercial ammunition loading press either are you saying they are the same as what Bubba has?). But as I understand it the sizing, cutting to length, and setting the bullet to an exact depth would be critical for a highly accurate round. Right??

So I’m having trouble believing that Bubba in his garage with his $25 Lyman calipers and his $200 Lee press can compete with today’s automation. Maybe he can, someone believes that he can or we wouldn’t be hearing all these “Reloads are more accurate than factory†statements.

So fill me in… what’s he doing that the big boys can’t do to make an accurate round?

Now… let’s addresses the whole “you will never see any Bullseye or centerfire rifle competition where the top 10 are not reloadersâ€. Doug Koenig, Julie Goloski, and Jerry Miculek (I know they are handgun shooters but I couldn’t think of the names of any rifle pro’s.) all load their own ammunition? I would believe that it is custom loaded, but by who?.... not Bubba.

Bubba isn’t measuring a thou with his dial calipers.

And no, it isn’t rocket science; I would guess it’s mostly Physics, Metallurgy and ballistics.

Well, what you should do dave is take the mugster challenge. If you have something in .223, why don't you get a hold of some semi decent shooting ammo and see if I can beat it on cheap single stage equipment. I'd like to compare my m855 clone to the real thing, so why not order a 200 round pack of this and we'll go have some fun. We can test it for velocity and accuracy. Mebbe shoot a phonebook stack or something:

http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8495&dir=18|725

This would be a pretty good test because I dunno how well my stuff is going to shoot yet. I'm out of town next week, but after that, I should have some time.

[DaveTN]

Well, what you should do dave is take the mugster challenge. If you have something in .223, why don't you get a hold of some semi decent shooting ammo and see if I can beat it on cheap single stage equipment. I'd like to compare my m855 clone to the real thing, so why not order a 200 round pack of this and we'll go have some fun. We can test it for velocity and accuracy. Mebbe shoot a phonebook stack or something:

http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8495&dir=18|725

This would be a pretty good test because I dunno how well my stuff is going to shoot yet. I'm out of town next week, but after that, I should have some time.

I don’t own anything in .223, can you load .308?

I have a couple of pretty good platforms to do some testing. A Remington 700 VLS with a Leupold VX-III 6.5-20 LR, or for EBR a DPMS Panther with a Leupold VX-I 3-9.

[Guest Mugster]

I don’t own anything in .223, can you load .308?

I have a couple of pretty good platforms to do some testing. A Remington 700 VLS with a Leupold VX-III 6.5-20 LR, or for EBR a DPMS Panther with a Leupold VX-I 3-9.

I wish, I lust after your dpms...I'm looking for one now. Scarce as hen's teeth. If i can get a rifle, I will start reloading for it almost immediately. 30 caliber is off the hook on price.

I kinda got stuck on .223 a couple years ago because of the cost savings, and it responds well to hand loading. .22lr just doesn't quite cut it.

Lets just go shoot sometime. I'll see if i can come up with a box of M855 and you can shoot this rifle. Its an RRA 20" standard A4 with a match trigger and a chrome lined barrel...got a 2x7 nikon and a bipod on it right now. Get you hooked on .223.

[molonlabetn]

Do you load 9mm?

This XD of mine has shown to be scary accurate whenever I've actually stood still and shot it (limited of course by my own incompetence). I'd be interested to see if hand-rolled rounds would make a difference from the bulk-reloads I get from Georgia-Arms or Atlanta-Arms...

[Guest Mugster]

Do you load 9mm?

This XD of mine has shown to be scary accurate whenever I've actually stood still and shot it (limited of course by my own incompetence). I'd be interested to see if hand-rolled rounds would make a difference from the bulk-reloads I get from Georgia-Arms or Atlanta-Arms...

Nope, only .45 in handgun. See previous quote about hades and a cold front regarding 9mm .

I would have guessed no at one point (for plinking ammo vs plinking ammo), but i do think I get a little better accuracy from a 200gr plated semi-wadcutter handload than any common 230gr ball. I guess thats not really "apples to apples" on bullet construction, but the plated stuff is relatively cheap and the reduced weight helps a bit too in both shipping and lead cost.

I tested the wolf .45acp handgun stuff. Its real consistent and its just as accurate as any of the OTC walmart stuff....it was polymer with an 08 stamp on the box. I dunno about the earlier stuff. I think they are steadily improving their products.

[DaveTN]

Lets just go shoot sometime.

We’ll have to do that; you have a PM.

[Guest DrBoomBoom]

As I said, I do reload for 9mm. Not to save money, and not for accuracy, but for fun. I enjoy reloading. My equipment paid for itself with .44spl and .45acp alone, so I just look at the component cost.

At about $20 for a can of powder, $30 for primers, and $80 for bullets, I can knock out a thousand rounds of 9mm for about $140. That's tax included. Somewhere around $7.00 for 50. If you count my time, that gets pretty expensive, but since I enjoy it as a hobby I don't count my time. I haven't seen $7.00 per 50 for a couple of years at least, not even at Wally World.

I don't find too many advantages beyond cost, save the fact that I can turn out a hundred the evening before going to the range. That saves me either the gas it takes to get to WalMart or Bass Pro, and actually saves me quite a bit over what the store at the range would charge. There are advantages, though, in the bigger calibers. Big savings, clean burning, I can tailor the charge to soft target for my wife or hotter rounds for fun.

Reloading isn't something I'd recommend for saving money. Your time burns up any savings. And even if you don't count your time, you just end up shooting more per range session.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

9mm is a poodle popping round, wanna stop the BG get as 45.

[Guest justaman30]

9mm is a poodle popping round, wanna stop the BG get as 45.

I don't know Phillip, trying out some 115 grain CorBon 9MM JHP rounds yesterday, and completely demolished the landscaping timber that was stood upright holding the target board. Literally shredded the thing with 10 rounds, from 25 feet. That's more than a poodle-popping round. Of course, little guys like me have to have something they can hold and shoot, and I can't hold onto a .45 like the big guys, so I like my sigma 9MM.

[Guest Mugster]

As I said, I do reload for 9mm. Not to save money, and not for accuracy, but for fun. I enjoy reloading. My equipment paid for itself with .44spl and .45acp alone, so I just look at the component cost.

At about $20 for a can of powder, $30 for primers, and $80 for bullets, I can knock out a thousand rounds of 9mm for about $140. That's tax included. Somewhere around $7.00 for 50. If you count my time, that gets pretty expensive, but since I enjoy it as a hobby I don't count my time. I haven't seen $7.00 per 50 for a couple of years at least, not even at Wally World.

I don't find too many advantages beyond cost, save the fact that I can turn out a hundred the evening before going to the range. That saves me either the gas it takes to get to WalMart or Bass Pro, and actually saves me quite a bit over what the store at the range would charge. There are advantages, though, in the bigger calibers. Big savings, clean burning, I can tailor the charge to soft target for my wife or hotter rounds for fun.

Reloading isn't something I'd recommend for saving money. Your time burns up any savings. And even if you don't count your time, you just end up shooting more per range session.

Yeah, thats true. Depending on if you value your time, reloading is a lose money proposition especially on a single stage press.

I have more time than money, and like it that way

[I_Like_Pie]

I’m not being a smart azz, this stuff is interesting to me and I want to learn.

Agreed...I didn't take offence to it.

(I have never seen a commercial ammunition loading press either are you saying they are the same as what Bubba has?). But as I understand it the sizing, cutting to length, and setting the bullet to an exact depth would be critical for a highly accurate round. Right??

Yes...the metal and diameters are exactly the same...exactly. The only difference is that they are attached to a assembly line. There is literally no diffrerence in the mechanics of the process.

So I’m having trouble believing that Bubba in his garage with his $25 Lyman calipers and his $200 Lee press can compete with today’s automation. Maybe he can, someone believes that he can or we wouldn’t be hearing all these “Reloads are more accurate than factory†statements.

Some people still swear that Slick50 makes their cars last longer...who am I to argue? Automation increases speed of manufacture...that is all. There is no difference in the process between reloaded and factory ammo.

So fill me in… what’s he doing that the big boys can’t do to make an accurate round?

Custom tailoring the ammunition to fit a specific gun...barrel length, weight, rifling twist, and chamber tolerances. Factory ammo has to work in as many situations as possible.

Now… let’s addresses the whole “you will never see any Bullseye or centerfire rifle competition where the top 10 are not reloadersâ€. Doug Koenig, Julie Goloski, and Jerry Miculek (I know they are handgun shooters but I couldn’t think of the names of any rifle pro’s.) all load their own ammunition? I would believe that it is custom loaded, but by who?.... not Bubba.

Actually....I would put money on every single one of them (or very supportive family members) being avid reloaders...probably Dillon 550 with all the extras. If they have full sponsorships they may be given the stuff, but I'll bet that it is still custom tailored for the shooter and their gun by someone on a bench...custom loaded and not "factory" loads.

Bubba isn’t measuring a thou with his dial calipers.

Yes he is. A dial caliper is the SINGLE most important tool that you have as a reloader. I can tell a huge difference if the bullets in my .44 magnum are .429 or .430 as they rub the forcing cone a bit differently and it affects accuracy. Yes...0.001 makes that much of a difference.

--------------------------------

You ought to give it a spin...it sounds like you are curious enough to where you would really enjoy it.