Learning Gunsmithing

[Guest kcraig]

I'm a machinist with 25 yrs experience and have a milling machine, 13X40 lathe and tooling and would like to learn gunsmithing. What about these online courses? Seems to me it would be impossible to learn this way without "hands on" experience. I don't have an FFL and expect it would be a real headache to get one. I don't want to go for the FFL without any training/experience, and definitely not going to jump into working on something as potentially dangerous (not to mention illegal) as a firearm without it. Any suggestions on where to start? THANKS!

[Byedan]

If some one else's gun comes and stays with you and you are gun smithing you need a ffl. I would by some beat up cheaper guns and see if you can get them to work. Also you can become a Glock amorer with out ffl, ar15 amorer classes with out ffl and some others. I have learned a lot about guns by just tearing into them. Do you want to repar guns or build guns?

[Jonnin]

I'm a machinist with 25 yrs experience and have a milling machine, 13X40 lathe and tooling and would like to learn gunsmithing. What about these online courses? Seems to me it would be impossible to learn this way without "hands on" experience. I don't have an FFL and expect it would be a real headache to get one. I don't want to go for the FFL without any training/experience, and definitely not going to jump into working on something as potentially dangerous (not to mention illegal) as a firearm without it. Any suggestions on where to start? THANKS!

 

well, you could make me an irreplacable part that I broke on an old revolver....   that would be a great start ....  (and I would pay )

And I was not kidding, lot of guns that are a part or 2 away from working and no one cares to do much about it cause its not profitable.  You don't need an ffl until you start taking possession of actual guns (the frame) from people.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Jonnin

[Guest kcraig]

So, you're saying I could legally repair (make parts for) a non-working gun that I bought? What about selling it after it was repaired? (legally, with no FFL)  I know I keep on bringing up about being legal but I was self employed for quite awhile and seems like that would bring on liability issues. I'm not up on all the specific regulations and don't want the Feds knocking on my door!

[graycrait]

kcraig,

 

I am not a gunsmith but am an armorer of sorts on a couple guns and am not afraid to tear into them either. I have several gunsmith friends. Two Denver School of Trades fellas and one recent grad of the program at Trinidad, CO.  And another but never asked where he went to school or if. 1st rule told to me by one long time gunsmith, never buy an expensive tool unless you absolutely know you will be able to pay for it by having enough work to use it.  The guy who told me that showed me a couple of tools he purchased when he was younger and there they hang/sit. A lot of the newer handguns are pretty modular and really don't require machining.  One fella I know builds rifles and does lots of barrel work including threading.  There is always someone wanting a threaded barrel for their suppressor, you might want to start there.  But if you are not on center you just bought someone a barrel..   Also, Ruger 10/22s are always getting their bolt faces trued up, barrels recrowned and rechambered and there are 6 million 10/22s out there, just sold by Ruger and tons of clones the last few years too. Seems 1911 guys are always wanting new dovetails cut in their slides but this can be expensive if you make a mistake or mar something. Good thing about slides and barrel is that you don't need an FFL to do those.

 

The two best 10/22 guys that I know of:

http://www.ct-precision.com/

https://sites.google.com/site/quesplace/

 

The two gunsmiths who are Denver SchofTds grads both work for the US government, one for Dept of State and the other for a special unit based in NC. I met both of these guys when they were working for 5th Special Forces. The recent Trinidad grad works at a gunshop in AL.  I'm really pulling for the fella in AL as he is building me a custom .22mag on a BSA Martini Cadet receiver, full custom Mannlicher stock too.  There is retired deputy sheriff who lives down near Viola, TN.  A tornado took his gunshop a few years ago, but he rebuilt a tidy little operation on his property which I visited.  He is the one who told me to watch what tools you buy. 

 

I asked a local guy who teaches snipers on FT Campbell how long it took for him to thread my 10/22 barrel and he told me about 10 minutes maybe.  He did a better job than the other 10/22 barrel I had from a professional barrel builder.  I also asked him how long it would take to cut down,, d&T for new sight placement and thread my Ruger MKIII, he said about the same time, cause he has done quite a few of those.  However, the upper on a Ruger MK series is the FFL item, unlike most handguns where the frame is the FFL item. So you need to be cautious if you don't have an FFL.

 

It seems that successful gunsmiths, and I don't think there are that many who make a living at gunsmithing, seem to get into a niche and go from there. Here are couple of examples:

https://www.geminicustoms.com/

http://www.coolguyguns.com/About-Us_ep_7.html

http://www.grantcunningham.com/

http://www.chestnutmountainsports.com/

 

I just read this book by Calfee:  http://www.killoughshootingsports.com/index.php/misc/the-art-of-rimfire-accuracy-by-bill-calfee-hard-cover-book.html

http://www.rimfireaccuracy.com/Forums/showthread.php/1919-Question-for-Bill-Calfee

[graycrait]

This is a fella a couple of us on TGO know.  He does some interesting things and look at the small parts he makes that probably pays the bills.  

http://www.ewkarms.com/

[Jonnin]

So, you're saying I could legally repair (make parts for) a non-working gun that I bought? What about selling it after it was repaired? (legally, with no FFL)  I know I keep on bringing up about being legal but I was self employed for quite awhile and seems like that would bring on liability issues. I'm not up on all the specific regulations and don't want the Feds knocking on my door!

 

For now, though its trying to be changed, you can certainly buy a junker, fix it, and sell it again just as you can buy any firearm and sell it again later.  Long as it is sold as-is you should not be liable, though I would probably avoid say buying a kaboomed gun and making a new barrel for it.  I am talking something like making a sear and hammer for example, for a worn out revolver, to get started --- if you mess up, they won't blow up, the hammer just won't work right.

 

You could also make something like that for someone else without taking possession of their entire gun -- you just need the old parts & maybe a diagram or measurements on the original specs, make the parts, let the owner install the fix.

 

I do not know how far you can stretch as-is.   I would think that if you made an aluminum barrel and it blew up, you would be liable .....     no matter what the buyer agreed to.    You also want to be sure to let them know its not original if the gun has collectors value.

 

I dunno it was just a thought on how to avoid the FFL stuff.    In the long run, IMHO, you WILL need the FFL so you can install sights, rails, etc on modern guns, which is where your payday comes from, day to day tasks.

[graycrait]

I'm not sure on this but if a fella brings you a gun and stays with you while you work on it then I don't think you have to bring it under "ATF" control.  But if someone drops off or ships you a gun that you take possession of that is where the ATF logging and control comes in.  Then there is the business end of it Jonnin mentions like liability insurance.  Which if you run a business then you have tax liabilities, even higher "business" prices for utilities, business licenses, phone service, etc.  The overhead is daunting and quite expensive.  When you go into business everyone wants a piece of your action. 

[owejia]

Google obtaining atf license and you will find an answer to any question you have. You can gunsmith under an o1 ffl, according to faq on the atf website.I only work on my own guns so I don't have an o1 license.

[DaveTN]

So, you're saying I could legally repair (make parts for) a non-working gun that I bought? What about selling it after it was repaired? (legally, with no FFL)  I know I keep on bringing up about being legal but I was self employed for quite awhile and seems like that would bring on liability issues. I'm not up on all the specific regulations and don't want the Feds knocking on my door!

You can legally make your own gun and you don’t have to have an FFL to do it; you can’t transfer it.

You can’t buy guns and fix them with the intent of flipping them without an FFL.

An FFL only cost $200, the biggest stumbling block for most of us comes from local zoning laws and laws governing home businesses. The ATF checks that.

[TrickyNicky]

I thought you could transfer your homemade guns so long as that was not the intent when you constructed it?

[gjohnsoniv]

I thought you could transfer your homemade guns so long as that was not the intent when you constructed it?

You can assuming that it has a serial number, though I think you could get into some sticky situations with a homebuilt. Just because who's to say what the intent was at the time.

[Jonnin]

My bad on that, Dave is correct, you cannot buy & fix  with intent to re-sell.   It is indeed about your intent. 

 

So in that case you would be just making parts if you want to avoid the FFL entirely. 

[Guest kcraig]

Thanks for all the input. I didn't realize I could make the part and let the customer install it. I was under the impression if it was a firearm (or part) I had to have the FFL. I know all about the liability and cost if I mess something up, been there, done that more than once (on machine parts). Practicing on a junker seems like the way to go to learn. Graycrait - 10 minutes to thread a barrel? Did he single point it (the proper way) or just run a die on it? It would take a good 15 minutes just to indicate it in then set up to thread.  I've been machining a long time and cut a lot of threads, not saying it couldn't be done, but I'd really like to see it.

[DaveTN]

Thanks for all the input. I didn't realize I could make the part and let the customer install it. I was under the impression if it was a firearm (or part) I had to have the FFL. I know all about the liability and cost if I mess something up, been there, done that more than once (on machine parts). Practicing on a junker seems like the way to go to learn. Graycrait - 10 minutes to thread a barrel? Did he single point it (the proper way) or just run a die on it? It would take a good 15 minutes just to indicate it in then set up to thread.  I've been machining a long time and cut a lot of threads, not saying it couldn't be done, but I'd really like to see it.

I doubt you will find many gunsmiths that can single point (of course that is rare for a “Machinist” now a days). Read the conversations and watch the videos when they are talking about machining or measuring; you will see what I mean.

All you will need to do it see the mechanics and what needs to be done. It should be a piece of cake for a skilled machinist.

[Guest kcraig]

Really! I thought gunsmithing would be precision work. Maybe I've been a machinist too long!  :pleased:  You should see me trying to saw that board +/- .010 building a deck, sometimes I do drive myself crazy! :rofl:

[owejia]

kcraig having been a machanist for over 40 I know what you mean.My wife calls me anal retentive because things have to be done right.

[Guest kcraig]

Been asking around for non-functional guns to practice on. I figured there would be some out there that shops just didn't want to mess with. It seems if it's not worth reselling they just don't trade (understandable). Anyone out there got anything cheap? Don't care if it's a basket case, just want something to tear into.

[BigK]

Seems like a man could make a fortune on the S&W forum selling extractors for their M&P 15-22. Seems they won't sell them and insist you send your damn gun in, which is a pain in the a$$ (free or not).

There's lots of other good guns out there with sub-par parts that could be improved too. Also, there's a HUGE market for parts for older guns (firing pins, replacement sights, springs, etc).

I think knowing enough about guns to make/sell hard to get parts is easier and potentially more profitable than repairing them, maybe?

[Currently]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

THIS!