Veterans in danger of losing their rights...

[Guest Dragonman]

22 Soldiers a day from redeploying units?  You have a firm source for that stat?  Because I'm calling BS.  That's no where close to reality.....as a matter of fact, in the entire military last year you're looking at 349.

 

Its a big military.   People kill themselves for a variety of reasons.  Same with the rest of America.  According to NIMH, you're looking at 11 out of 100k.  Eleven out of One Hundred Thousand. 

 

I'd argue that the suicide hype is just that - a lot of hype.  Is it a problem?  Sure, just like murder and texting while driving are problems.  Media and politicians are blowing it out of proportion.....and the question is why?  One answer could be they want to take guns away from the people that use(d) them...

[Guest Dragonman]

You appear to have misread the posting. Nobody said anything about redeploying units, but anyway your number of 349 is only from 21 states because only those states list military service onthe death certificate. How many more if all 50 were listed? ;)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/melaniehaiken/2013/02/05/22-the-number-of-veterans-who-now-commit-suicide-every-day/

[TMF]

You appear to have misread the posting. Nobody said anything about redeploying units, but anyway your number of 349 is only from 21 states because only those states list military service onthe death certificate. How many more if all 50 were listed? ;)http://www.forbes.com/sites/melaniehaiken/2013/02/05/22-the-number-of-veterans-who-now-commit-suicide-every-day/

The armed forces keeps track of suicides of their members. If someone has been discharged and then commits suicide it may be a different story, but considering over 5% of the the population are veterans of some sort that number is going to be high by default, and anyone trying to draw a link there is misrepresenting the facts.

Unlike the movies, when a person returns from a deployment they aren't just released back into the wild as a civilian. They are still in the military and suicides within all active and reserve branches are tracked very closely. I realize Hollywood depicts returning Soldiers as getting off a plane driving home from the airport and that is the end of their military service, but that is because Hollywood is stupid and don't bother to research any reality they are trying to depict, and Americans believe when they are watching movies they are witnessing how life really is; that is how we ended up with stupid gun laws. Edited March 4, 2013 by TMF

[scoutfsu]

Rate of returning soldiers doing themselves in currently stands at 22 per day

 

Ok, I'll bite.  What did you mean by returning soldiers?  Or are you talking about anyone who ever might have been in the military ever?  Because to current and recently ETSed military, "returning" mean one thing.

 

But to draw from one of those sources that article cites;

  The Pentagon says that although the military suicide rate has been rising, it remains below that of the civilian population. It says the civilian suicide rate for males aged 17-60 was 25 per 100,000 in 2010, the latest year for which such statistics are available. That compares with the military's rate in 2012 of 17.5 per 100,000.

 

It appears that we need to watch civilians who have never served more closely than we need to watch military members.

 

I'm sick and tired of being bombarded with propaganda and misinterpretations that service members are a danger to others and themselves.  I sit through this type of garbage 2-3 times a year.  PTSD has been the hot button lately and I have a suspicion, recently bolstered by this BS the VA and the Government, that they're angling on taking away rights from the many, based on the few.

[TMF]

Like most statistics, people present them without context, so if I was to say that last year 2,500 US vets committed suicide then folks would think that was pretty high.  However, the latest number of annual suicides nationally was somewhere around 38,000 out of a population of 315,000,000.  Out of that population of 315,000,000 there are over 21,000,000 veterans.  If we applied the same percentage to that number of veterans it would put the number of suicides at 2,500, and that would be normal, but I have a suspicion that the number is surprisingly lower. 

 

Of course, if you believe the media reports without context there isn't much anyone can do for you.  When a talking head comes on TV and says there were over 2,000 veteran suicides last year people think there is some kind of problem with veterans even though it is consistent with the national average.  Once again, people allowing the media to form their opinions instead of being a responsible skeptic.

 

Speaking from my own experience, I have yet to know a person or know of a person who committed suicide because they had PTSD.  The suicides I know of which were committed by folks on active duty were almost entirely due to Jody banging the guy's wife while he was away or some variant of that story.  There are a couple which involved financial or professional issues that caused them to pull the trigger.  Two I knew personally, and both were garbage human beings not folks suffering from PTSD.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I'm ignorant of PTSD. Looking it up, here is a typical layman's overview from webmd-- http://www.webmd.com/anxiety-panic/tc/post-traumatic-stress-disorder--symptoms

 

Many psychiatric diagnoses are kinda amorphous and subject to interpretation. Some psychiatric diagnoses in the past, medical science discovered the actual organic cause, and that "mental illness" became a "physical illness" discoverable with such as objective lab tests rather than divination of symptoms by a "skilled psychiatrist".

 

Anyway, there remain many fairly serious "mental illnesses" which really are pretty easy to identify by the symptoms, but there isn't any objective lab test, and it is anyone's guess what causes the mental defect. So the cause and physical disorder may be guessed-at but at the moment generally unknown. It could be that there are numerous physical processes which result in the same collection of symptoms. For instance, for all we know there could be 10 or 1000 different disease processes which all result in symptoms recognizable as paranoid schizophrenia.

 

Anyway, perusing the list of PTSD symptoms, PTSD seems different than many psychiatric diagnoses-- Apparently just about ANYTHING can be a symptom of PTSD. Apparently the factor tying all the symptoms together into a single diagnosis is the "known cause" of mental trauma. Rather than "unknown cause with discrete set of symptoms", PTSD appears to be a "known cause with just about any symptom acceptable as evidence."

 

Am not trying to prove or argue any particular point. It just seems interesting that the PTSD is different in nature from many psychiatric diagnoses.

 

The "disorder" word-- A person messed up and unhappy after trauma, of course it is a "disorder" from the standpoint that you have an unhappy person who would rather not be unhappy. On the other hand, "disorder" implies that the stress response would be "abnormal". But getting messed-up in some fashion after traumatic events is most likely a very normal human response? Not abnormal at all?

 

Perhaps the person entirely unaffected by traumatic events would be the abnormal case? Just wondering-- The "disorder" word in the diagnosis might tilt people to a wrong attitude about it, that there is something "wrong" with a person messed-up by traumatic events, when it might be just as normal as a person breaking his leg if he falls off a roof? Wonder if a more accurate characterization could omit the "disorder" word? Maybe Post Traumatic Stress Discomfort?

[Guest ab28]

Yep, I practically had to argue with the rep doing my VA paperwork on why I'm not claiming PTSD. Made me wonder about all the people they hit up on the way out who see that as free money and the closest they got to combat was having an indirect round impact near their FOB.

My shrink said I didn't have PTSD, which is a good thing. I do fit the symptoms, but I have stress fractures and knee problems from the military, and I remember going to the TMC in basic and getting treated, even saw the xrays. I have some mental issues, but not PTSD. I have been fighting since 2004 for benefits, finally contacted Rep for Vets, not sure if they can do any good. Was on meds, been cutting back on them since they started making me gain weight.

 

Haven't had any doc or anyone say anything about my HCP, won't matter soon, as I can't carry on the Appalachian Trail anyways, at least in the occupied northern states. That is the one thing I have found to help all my issues, going hiking.

[Guest Dragonman]

Ok, I'll bite.  What did you mean by returning soldiers?  Or are you talking about anyone who ever might have been in the military ever?  Because to current and recently ETSed military, "returning" mean one thing.

 

But to draw from one of those sources that article cites;

 

It appears that we need to watch civilians who have never served more closely than we need to watch military members.

 

I'm sick and tired of being bombarded with propaganda and misinterpretations that service members are a danger to others and themselves.  I sit through this type of garbage 2-3 times a year.  PTSD has been the hot button lately and I have a suspicion, recently bolstered by this BS the VA and the Government, that they're angling on taking away rights from the many, based on the few.

Mixed up my wording my reference was to veterans as a whole. But in my best Sgt. Hulka impersonation, lighten up Francis. I've seen 26 year old soldiers going for their 6th deployment and I'va also seen the lowest dregs of society holding highly esteemed positions in the military. Had soldiers tell me that despite 4 deployments they sleep well every night and have seen soliders so blind drunk after 2 deployments that they had to have their friends carry them to the cab so they could go home. Seen soldiers refuse help becasue they believe in self reliance and others that claim PTSD as an excuse to get out of the military.  If you claim to know as much as you do about the military you also know they always receive alot of scrutiny for whatever they do, right or wrong and right now with the suicides increasing they're receiving scrutiny for that as well. One also can't help but wonder if the Chris Kyle incident also has ratcheted the issue up a few notches. Also since this is a family site I won't post a link but do yourself a favor and google "Wives Of Wounded Vets Strip Down " and follow some links to see how determined people are to bring attention to the issue of PTSD.

[TMF]

I got blind drunk and carried to cabs long before the war even started.

[scoutfsu]

I got blind drunk and carried to cabs long before the war even started.

Maybe you had PPTSD?  That whole pesky pre-post traumatic thingy.

[scoutfsu]

Mixed up my wording my reference was to veterans as a whole. But in my best Sgt. Hulka impersonation, lighten up Francis. I've seen 26 year old soldiers going for their 6th deployment and I'va also seen the lowest dregs of society holding highly esteemed positions in the military. Had soldiers tell me that despite 4 deployments they sleep well every night and have seen soliders so blind drunk after 2 deployments that they had to have their friends carry them to the cab so they could go home. Seen soldiers refuse help becasue they believe in self reliance and others that claim PTSD as an excuse to get out of the military.  If you claim to know as much as you do about the military you also know they always receive alot of scrutiny for whatever they do, right or wrong and right now with the suicides increasing they're receiving scrutiny for that as well. One also can't help but wonder if the Chris Kyle incident also has ratcheted the issue up a few notches. Also since this is a family site I won't post a link but do yourself a favor and google "Wives Of Wounded Vets Strip Down " and follow some links to see how determined people are to bring attention to the issue of PTSD.

Lol whatever guy.  Its becoming obvious that you don't know what you don't know about the military.  Only what people tell you or you read :shake:

 

26yr old going for 6 deployments huh?  Assuming joining at 18, you're telling me this supposed soldier spent 6 out of 8 years deployed?  Bullshit. 

 

But since we're now apparently talking about all ALL the veterans who might have ever served at any time committing suicide....I still don't get your point.  Those numbers you're claiming - how do they correspond to the civilian population as a whole?  Because again, reading the articles you cite, civilians appear to suffer from a higher percentage of suicide.

[TMF]

Maybe you had PPTSD?  That whole pesky pre-post traumatic thingy.

I'm so advanced.

[graycrait]

Many of us simply don't trust "government" with that kind of power but at the same time, somebody has to do it and power can corrupt anyone. It's the proverbial rock and a hard place.

 

Well said.

[Guest Dragonman]

Lol whatever guy.  Its becoming obvious that you don't know what you don't know about the military.  Only what people tell you or you read :shake:

 

26yr old going for 6 deployments huh?  Assuming joining at 18, you're telling me this supposed soldier spent 6 out of 8 years deployed?  Bull####. 

 

But since we're now apparently talking about all ALL the veterans who might have ever served at any time committing suicide....I still don't get your point.  Those numbers you're claiming - how do they correspond to the civilian population as a whole?  Because again, reading the articles you cite, civilians appear to suffer from a higher percentage of suicide.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Dragonman

[Guest Dragonman]

Yup ever unit deploys for a year. Ever consider he might be a Nightstalker? Probabaly not as you're too concerned with playing keyboard kommando. I simply suggested that the reason the guvment might be trying to limit the sale of firearms to veterans is because of PTSD. With the ever changing categorization of "mentally defective" by alphabet agencies who knows?
http://www.gunlawsbystate.com/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-depression-and-possessing-a-firearm-the-basics/

Nobody's talking down about veterans and if you weren't so blinded by your mindset you would have seen that from the start. I would suggest you look through your own error filled postings before passing wrongful judgement on others. I tire of this so knock yourself out with another smart @$$ rebuttal to make yourself feel better John Wayne.

[TMF]

Yup ever unit deploys for a year. Ever consider he might be a Nightstalker? Probabaly not as you're too concerned with playing keyboard kommando. I simply suggested that the reason the guvment might be trying to limit the sale of firearms to veterans is because of PTSD. With the ever changing categorization of "mentally defective" by alphabet agencies who knows?
http://www.gunlawsbystate.com/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-depression-and-possessing-a-firearm-the-basics/

Nobody's talking down about veterans and if you weren't so blinded by your mindset you would have seen that from the start. I would suggest you look through your own error filled postings before passing wrongful judgement on others. I tire of this so knock yourself out with another smart @$$ rebuttal to make yourself feel better John Wayne.

 

I thought he made some good points in his rebuttal.  You however, have yet to provide source for your numbers you claimed or context.  I've laid out the numbers for you above.  Currently suicides by active duty and reserve military personnel are below the national average.  What are your questions?

 

Next, don't get too bent out of shape regarding him call BS on the 26 year old 6 tour claim.  A common accepted term of "tour" indicates about 12 months.  Those numbers may go up or down based on the surge back in '07 or the recent shortening of conventional troop deployments to 9 months, but a 90 day rotation by the 160th is much different than 12 months in the box.  I've heard plenty of 160th and AF folks early on in the war who had done a couple of 90 rotations and claim 2 tours like they are some kind of 'Nam vet who cuts off ears and eats VC tongue... those folks are the ones who are full of sh** and need to be outed as posers.  When 4 "tours" only add up to one "tour" by an actual grunt who gets the pleasure of making contact with the enemy daily, I proudly support anyone who tells that sorry POG to STFU.

[scoutfsu]

Thanks TMF.  That's exactly my point.  Dragonman obviously doesn't understand that considering he's never served and is trying for the "cool by association" angle.  He buys into the whole "6 tours" bit because he just doesn't know what he doesn't know.  And for the record, a vast majority of the 160th are fucking cool guys.  But when a guy's "6 tours" add up to just over my first tour, STFU.  Stop embarrassing your friend. 

 

Error filled postings huh?  Funny, coming from the guy who was repeatedly shown that he was incorrect by multiple people.  My postings come from experience and black and white numbers.  Yours come from wrong words, "I said returning but I didn't mean returning :stunned: ", mis-reads of articles, and stories from your friends.  But its cool man.  I'm a keyboard commando John Wayne.  You keep riding on the coat tails of experience by your friends and have yourself a good one.

[Chief07]

By this logic, we should declare the general populous crazy for continuing to elect these idiots!

I think all politicians should undergo a psychiatric exam before they assume office!  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl: 

I would list them but I would run out of space.