Need steel / knife advice

[itchytriggerfinger]

OK guys, don't beat me up too bad, bit I'm a noob when it comes to knives. I was looking for a good reference for what to look for in terms of knife steel. I first want a folding edc but I want something that will stay scary sharp. I'm tired of sharpening my cheap Gerber knives all the time. Of course I've been looking at Bench made and Spyderco but even they have different steels.

So what should I look for and is there any sort of reference.

[TNcitizen22]

Most of the 'super steels' on the market such as VG-10, 154CM, S30v, etc... are fantastic steels.  All of them will hold a good edge for quite some time.  My EDC almost every day is the Spyderco Paramilitary II.  It features a three inch fully flat ground slab of S30V steel.  I found that from the factory, the edge wasn't great, after taking it to a guy who sharpens blades professionally, it was fantastic, and has remained so for the past six months.

 

I have carried super steels for about 12 years, and I have overall found little difference in edge retention between them.  At the end of the day, they are not a high carbon steel such as tool steel which will hold a fantastic edge.  I think the best way you can keep a great edge on a knife is to have it professionally sharpened or buy a high end sharpener.  Many folks opt for the cheap little Smiths brand pocket sharpeners and though they work ok, they change the blade geometry in such a fashion as to not provide an optimum cutting grind. I also believe that the grind those sharpeners give to knives accelerates wear given that you now have two different angles on your cutting surface instead of one continuous angle, though I have nothing to back that up, just a theory.  But, in my experience a properly sharpened knife will hold a great edge much longer than an improperly sharpened one.

 

Anyways, most any pick from Benchmade, Spyderco, any of the high end manufacturers that features a decent steel will do you proud.  My best advice would be to spend some decent cash on the sharpening device or service.

 

Perhaps someone can chime in on the more specific characteristics of these steels that I have simply never observed.

[Guest Bowdenknxvll]

He pretty much hit it on the head.  There are things you have to weigh between carbon steels and super steels.  Super steels will hold an edge longer, but its a pain to sharpen them once dull.  Carbon steels can hold an edge a long time depending on the heat treat but not as long as the super steels, but they are easier to sharpen.  My suggestion is to get a solid brand, most steels used today are great and practice stropping.  If you strop after it stops biting you can get it back to shaving sharp and not have to sharpen.  Stropping will keep an edge sharp for a long time. As for sharpening, they Spyderco Sharpmaker is a good tool that will give you a good edge and isn't hard to use.  Once I got a cheap Harbor Freight 1x30 sander I haven't had to use anything since.  You can get machine and enough belts for a year of sharpening for under 75.00.  Ive had mine for three years, use it every day, and its still going strong.

[itchytriggerfinger]

Yeah I was reading a forum reviewing a Benchmade model and they were like "yeah, it would have been a better knife with blah blah steel."

Well the difference between that one and the other was $150 versus $300. So is it $150 better? It's a pocket knife for god sakes.

[Guest Bowdenknxvll]

Good point! Ive never been on board with the thinking that super steels are so much better.  It really depends on what you are going to do with it.  If its just for EDC, anything made by companies now will work fine.  Base your decision on comfort and what feels good to you.

[TNcitizen22]

When it comes to cash differences you are getting into a realm past steel at a certain point.  A $150 vs $300 knife often have the same or very similar steels.  You are paying for differences in deployment (auto, manual, assisted), lockup, handle material, manufacturer, blade finish, etc...  In other words, not things that impact its cutting performance.

 

For instance, I own one knife that was a limited run of a certain model.  It has a unique finish on the blade and a special colored handle and was limited to 900 produced.  I payed roughly double what a stock version of this knife cost.  At the end of the day its the same knife.

 

Bowdens suggestion of stropping is an excellent one.  It is certainly something that should be purchased in addition to a sharpener if you are serious about your knives.

 

Be careful when you are reading knife forums.  There are a lot of armchair commandos out there who are total steel snobs who seem to expect a pocket knife to have the same utility as a chain saw.  I am really not certain these guys actually 'use' their knives ever.

[daddyo]

Depends on how much you use your knives and what you use them for. 8Cr13MoV and Sandvik 14c28n seem to work fine for what I need them for, but I'm not hard on my blades, so I find it hard to justify spending big bucks on the higher end knives. I find the Sandvik to be a good medium between edge retention and ease of sharpening. I have others made with S30V and 154cm, but it's probably more than I really need. I just like having a few with better quality steel.

[peejman]

The big question is what do you use the knife for?

 

You can get really hard, high carbon steels extremely sharp, but they get brittle and corrode easily.  As you make the steel tougher and more corrosion resistant, the ability to hold an edge typically drops off.  Some of the "super steels" do a reasonable job of bridging that gap, but at considerable expense. 

 

A big +1 to professional sharpening.  I had some kitchen knives professionally sharpened and they held their edge for years and years.  When they finally needed resharpened, I did it myself.  While I can get them back to shaving sharp (I'm no expert), they need touched up every few months.

[leroy]

I guess in my view; the steel thing really boils down to this: Do ya want to worry about a bit of rust forming on your pocket knife or not? 

 

If ya tend not to wipe down your knife, or cut an apple or orange with it every now and then; i would opt for a stainless type steel (...any of em...).

 

If ya want a real sharp knife that will re-sharpen easily, get a carbon steel knife. 

 

I've just picked up a couple of esee knives (...and es33 3 and an izula...).  They are carbon steel and have a shaving sharp edge on them.  I touched them up in about two minutes with a pocket stainless dmt ex-fine (...green...) hone and a razor strop.  They are literally "sharp as a razor".   The stainless knives (...all of em ive ever handled, from great to small...) are harder to sharpen; and simply will not sharpen up as sharp as a carbon steel knife.  All that bein said; they are all great.  They will be sharp enough (...a relative term, i know....); but shaving sharp, none the less and will do a great cutting job. 

 

Im a knife junkie by nature and have been foolin with them and sharpenin them since i wuz a boy.  We are blessed to have the great selection of knives and knife makers; but there is more baloney and pure lies circulated about knife steels and "super secret heat treatment regimens" in the knife blogs and industry than any other branch of the sales business (...i think...).  I made my living for a pretty good while around the edges of the steel industry (...engineering and big machine shop....).  The fact is that tool steels (... which knives are mostly made of...) is good stuff.

 

From the most humble (...AUS 8...) right up to whatever the most current super dooper stuff is; its better than ya can imagine.  It's tough, high strength, and very pure material.  If ya dont abuse it, it wont break.  If it does (...very rare...), ya were probably doin somethin with it you shouldnt do (...think pry bar here...). 

 

Carbon steels (...1075, 1095...) are high carbon tool and spring steels.  They are strong (...think about what a tool steel does; it cuts steel...), tough and relatively inexpensive.  I like it best, because i tend to take care of my knives and like an xtra sharp blead. 

 

Havin said that, there are two edc carries in my pocket right now, a ZT 700 folder and a little spyderco folder; both stainless.  In my kit bag however, are the two esee fixed blades, both carbon steel.

 

The end of this little ramble; pick the one you like from a serious manufacturer and you cant go wrong.  Dont be dragged off in the bushes by the "knife experts" and the baloney about the proprietary heat treatments and secret manufacturing processes.  Its all baloney.  Heat treatment of steel and steel making is a highly developed and well understood business.  Ya do the same things to get the same results.  The real difference in knives is individual workmanship details and degree of sharpness out of the box; nothin more.  If ya buy a spyderco, al mar, benchmade, h&k, zero tolerance (... really kershaw; kai industries...), boker, queen, case, on and on (...ya get the picture...), that ya like, ya cant go wrong.  Take the time to learn how to sharpen a knife properly and it will serve ya well. 

 

Hope this helps a bit and dispells a bit of the baloney about knife steels.

 

leroy

[Moped]

I like carbon steel because it's easy to sharpen and stay sharp. Once I learned how to sharpen a knife, found it to be a pleasure to do. They may not hold and edge as long as super steels, but I also don't have to spend a couple hours putting the edge back.  I've sorta drifted away from all the fancy stuff.  I do have and carry some stainless steel knives often, but most of them are the old 440 variety and they seem to do well with me.  Currently, my EDC rotates from a Case Sodbuster (truestarp stainless), to an Opinel No. 9 (carbon), to a Svord Peasant (carbon) and a Camillus U.S. Pocket knife (also known as a Demo Knife and it's Stainless).  A RAT 1 resides in my work Sling bag and it's AUS8.

[itchytriggerfinger]

Thank you to everyone for the responses.  I'm not totally new to knives and can lay a razor edge on a quality knife with a diamond stone.  The problem is I don't know what is truly "quality knife steel".  I've been given the handful of knives I have from my dad and other relatives.  If I can't lay a good edge on it, it gets thrown in a drawer.  If it does shave hair, it gets sharpened, used, and cared for.  With most being gifts, I have no idea what type of steel they are other than generically saying SS or CS based on stamps, rust/tarnish, etc.

 

I currently carry a 2" Gerber which loses it's SS edge after cutting a few pieces of tape.  But at the same time, it's a throwaway knife and I know it.  I'm looking for a folding knife that will hold that razor edge in case I forget my filet knife for gutting trout or cutting a skipjack.  Or a knife I can pull out when camping and cut a piece of rope or slice potatoes. 

[Caster]

If you want some interesting reading, google "Crucible Particle Metallurgy"
Tool steels pale in comparison. After heat treat it takes some serious abrasives to work them with any amount of accuracy and success. Back when I was working as a machinist the only way we had to work heat treat CPM was wire EDM or CBN grinding wheels. A standard stone would just load up and wouldn't cut at all.

CPM10V is a great knife blade material.
I've always wondered why they don't use high speed steels for knife blades. M42, T15, Rex 76 etc is what cutting tools are made from. If you can make cutting tools to cut tool steel with it, it'd have to make a killer knife blade.

[Moped]

 currently carry a 2" Gerber which loses it's SS edge after cutting a few pieces of tape.  But at the same time, it's a throwaway knife and I know it.  I'm looking for a folding knife that will hold that razor edge in case I forget my filet knife for gutting trout or cutting a skipjack.  Or a knife I can pull out when camping and cut a piece of rope or slice potatoes. 

I'd go with a large Case Sodbuster or an Opinel in which ever metal you prefer. Both come in either SS or carbon and both are thin enough to filet a fish or cut taters.  The case will run you about $30+ and the Opinel will run you a around $12.  The Case will be much heavier in the pocket than the Opinel,

[itchytriggerfinger]

I used a buddy's Opinel, and it was scary sharp, but I didn't care for the handle.  When my hands were wet I had a fear of my hand slipping forward because the handle is so straight.  Bad experience with an old filet knife with the same type handle.

[leroy]

itchy:___________

 

For an excellent read, check here: http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/tool-steel-properties.html

 

Check this out too:  http://www.emjmetals.com/PDF/BBook/Tool%20Steels.pdf

 

Earle M Jorgensen is one of the premier suppliers of tool steels in the world.

 

The bottom line on steel (...and tool steels...) is this: 

 

Carbon Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon; with lesser alloys of maganese and vanadium and other elements.  Generally less than 1% carbon.  For example the 1095 steel used in lots of carbon steel knives is .95% or so carbon.  Too much carbon; and steel turns into cast iron.  Vanadium is used as a grain refiner; that makes the steel extremely ductile.  I've seen 1 1/2 inch bars bent into a hairpin bend (...180 degree bends...) that were classified as carbon steels.

 

Alloy steels (...stainless and tool steels included...) have Chromium added.  Stainless is over 11% chromium.   The chromium prevents the steel from rusting.  The original name for stainless steel wuz "rustless steel".  It wuz developed for gun barrels (...big ones; think naval gun barrels here...).  Chromium also makes steels brittle and hard without heat treatment.  Straight chromium stainless steels are also referred to as "martensitic stainless steels".  Alloys of chromium, nickel (...18-8...) are what stainless flatware is made out of.  It's called "austenitic" stainless steels.

 

"Super steels".  For the most part, "super steels" are just simply carbon steels with various small additions of various elements added to enhance strength, ductility, hardenability, rust resistance, etc.  The link gives a good explanation of what the individual alloying elements do to improve the steel.

 

Melting practice.  All good steels are either electric furnace or vacuum remelted steels.  That makes the steel more homogeneous and "cleaner" (...free of slag inclusions...).   Tool steels are hot rolled bars for the most part. The "cleaner" the steel, the more homogeneous and free of defects.   Defects like slag inclusions cause the steel to break at the spot of the inclusion many times.

 

Heat treatment.  All tool steels are hardenable.  That means ya can heat treat them in a heat treat furnace.  The techniques are well known and the furnaces do a great job with repeatability.  Lots of production and custom parts are heat treated to specified hardnesses.

 

All knives are made from some sort of tool steel.  They all just have funny names; or catchy names.  It's all baloney and marketing hype.  Dont let these knife makers fill ya full of baloney about the "secret manufacturing processes".  The methods and techniques for this sort of stuff are well known.

 

Hope this helps a bit.

 

leroy

[Moped]

Been there done that and understand.  You can always carve some grooves in the wood to help with grip or add some sort of tacky finish.  That's one of the beauties of the Opinel, they are easily customized.

 

Another alternative might be either a large Trapper or Muskrat pattern in a Case or whatever brand of slip-joint you happen to like. 

[itchytriggerfinger]

You guys are awesome. Thank you for the good reads. I'm an engineer by trade so I eat up all the "how it's made" stuff.

[itchytriggerfinger]

What do you guys think about the test/ranking over on bladeforums?

 

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/793481-Ranking-of-Steels-in-Categories-based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope

 

Excerpt... edge durability

 

Category 1
CPM-S90V (Military and Para 2) (60)
CTS-20CP (Para 2) (60)
M390 (Mule) (60.5)

Category 2
M390 (60)
CPM M4 (62.5)
CPM-S90V (59) (Manix 2 with 30 Degree Micro Bevel)
CPM-S60V
VANAX 75 (Kershaw Tilt)

Category 3
Vanax 35 (59.5)

Category 4
ZDP-189 (65)
CPM-154 (62)
ELMAX (60)
CTS-XHP (Military) (60+)
Super Blue (61.5)
CPM 3V (Big Chris)

Category 5
S30V (60)
VG-1
CPM - D2 (62)
N690
ATS-34 (59)
CPM-S35VN (59)
N680
ELMAX (58.5) Mule
D2 - Dozier K2

Category 6
INFI
154CM (61)
14C28N

 

Category 7
VG-10
S30V (58.5)
AUS-8A
SG-2
5160 (55)
13C26N
X-15
440C (Big Chris)

Category 8
H-1
420 HC (Buck 110)

Category 9
CTS-BD1