unlawful laws?

[Guest crytes]

Every time I talk to a leo or read something written by a current or retired cop it seems aperent that the majority of them belive whole heartedly in the second amendment. Is this true or do I have a biased sample? I ask becouse when I was aplying for law enforcemetn I was unsure how I'd deal with it being my responsibility to uphold unconstitutional laws. I know when I was sworn in as a solder part of my oath containd " defend the constitution from all enimies foreign and demestic" and this apears in many aleigence oaths from everything public office to the naturalization on imigrants. When a leo is sworn in do their oaths also contain refence to upholding or defending the constitution as well. These thoughts came while thinking through some of my buddies arguments about weapons being needed in the case of our goverment crossing the line and needing to be taken back. Their argument is that with our volunteer military would simply refuse to opress their own people and I'm sure a few would. But how can we expect anything except just following orders from the majority when we have the precident of so many officers upholding laws they know are wrong?

[mousegunner]

Disclaimer: I am not, nor ever have been a LEO. My understanding from reading the various gun boards is that the majority of LEOs are exactly what LEO means: "LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER." They WILL enforce the law, and they will not try to decide if the law is good or bad. They just enforce it. They leave it up to the legislative and judicial branches to sort it all out. I believe if gun confiscation is ordered in a particular city, almost all LEOs will follow orders.

[Guest MEC]

Disclaimer: I am not, nor ever have been a LEO. My understanding from reading the various gun boards is that the majority of LEOs are exactly what LEO means: "LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER." They WILL enforce the law, and they will not try to decide if the law is good or bad. They just enforce it. They leave it up to the legislative and judicial branches to sort it all out. I believe if gun confiscation is ordered in a particular city, almost all LEOs will follow orders.

I agree. If you have any doubt about this just look at New Orleans.

[Guest Phantom6]

Just a note here-

First of all, most LEO's are not gun people which seems strange to me since they carry one as a tool for the protection of themselves and others. I could go on for hours relating stories about what I've seen in the way many cops handle their firearms over the last 30 years of working with various departments but that is another story all together.

Secondly, the rank and file does seem to be pro Second Amendment. It is the "white shirts" or the upper management or administrators that tend to exhibit anti Second tendencies most likely due, and this to their detriment, to the political games they must become wrapped up in in order to deal with their town or city officials.

Thirdly and most practically, these folks are grossly underpaid for what they do. They have families and obligations just as you and I do. How many of us could walk into the boss's office tomorrow without any warning or prior planning and tell him/her "I QUIT!" because we don't like what they are asking us to do? Undoubtedly some could but I dare say that the majority could not withour inflicting severe economic hardship on our families. Many of the rank and file are living pay check to pay check and the question for them would be do I stand on principal and let my children miss those doctor's appointments or do I do what I am ordered to do and let the courts sort it all out as they are supposed to do?

If crunch time ever comes in your community don't be too hard on these folks. Some will buck the order but many will not because they all will still have to buy bread, milk and FUEL tomorrow.

The best thing to do to stave off this opportunity for open rebellion is to join and support large national groups like the NRA and others that work to insure your rights to keep and bear arms. Their strength comes from us, the individual members. You say you are a Second Amendment supporter yet you aren't willing to invest $25 or $30 a year to fight for it? Hmmm........

[Fallguy]

Sort of boils down to the part of the oath "protect and defend" the constitution, not "interpret". So just because you or a few other individuals feel a law is unconstitutional you still must enforce it. Just as was the law in D.C. until recently.

The judicial branch gets to decided what laws are constitutional or not, so unless something has been ruled unconstitutional by them, it is defacto constitutional regardless of the feelings of anyone else.

[Guest crytes]

to my veiw enforceing such laws is the same as be ordered to idnore due process and just open fire on a suspect. Either way they are ignoring an idividuals rights becouse of an order that violate the documents our contry was founded on. As far as the judicial branch goes the constitution was written in very plain english and is not up to interpitation. If the judges can't read (and it apears almost half of them can't) they need to look for a new job. As this is not happening I don't trust that process. And if a big orginization getting its power from you was all that was needed to ensure they stayed true to your goals then the nra wouldn't be needed, becouse thats were the goverment suposedly gets its power. Of course to my knowledge the NRA does not employ armed agents to push their agenda so thats a plus. My real point is takeing an otherwise lawful citezen and transforming them magically into a criminal just because their weapon fires two or more bullets at a time, has stock or short barrel with out an opresive tax stamp, or is the wrong type of semiauto rifle whit more than 10 foreign parts is just wrong to say the least about the even more nosenicle rules out there. The main reason prohibition didn't work is that majority of the police were breaking the law themselves and looking the other way when others didi as well, but it only became reconized as a failed endevour when they pushed the issue. A law in nothing whithout the support of the law enforcment community becouse they are the ones on the ground if they choose to ignor unlawful laws and concentrated on the real criminals there isn't much that could be done about it. Just one more check and ballence called free will.

[molonlabetn]

It's a job, and very few people place their ideals above every-day necessities. Those who can't handle making compromises shouldn't take a job which requires it.

We all make compromises, whether it's by working somewhere that prohibits firearms, shopping at stores or restaurants occasionally which have irreputable business practices, or even just by voting for the lesser of two evils. A LEO's job is simply a very obvious conflict of personal bias vs. duty. I have alot of respect for the guys/gals who manage to do so while retaining a strong sense of their ethics and common sense. There are many who don't, and those are who we should criticize. But, we shouldn't try to criticize the ones who are doing what they are best at in order to simply provide for their families, and maybe make a positive difference too.

[Guest crytes]

I'm not so much trying to critisize as point out the power they have at their level for change get enough LEOs to agree and they could effectivly mak a law disapear. This may be a simplistic or nieve veiw but thats how I see it.

[molonlabetn]

Get enough regular people to agree and act towards changing laws would have the same effect though, really when it comes down to it.

[mousegunner]

He wrote:

If crunch time ever comes in your community don't be too hard on these folks. Some will buck the order but many will not because they all will still have to buy bread, milk and FUEL tomorrow.

The best thing to do to stave off this opportunity for open rebellion is to join and support large national groups like the NRA and others that work to insure your rights to keep and bear arms. Their strength comes from us, the individual members. You say you are a Second Amendment supporter yet you aren't willing to invest $25 or $30 a year to fight for it?

I agree. Don't be hard on the cops. They do a tough nasty job most of us would not want to do. They ought to be paid double what they are, in my opinion.

[Guest janwbrown616]

Well Guys, being a retired LEO (35 years Federal and local), I have to jump in here.

First people should understand that Cops are not made from Shooters, Cops are made into Shooters. A lot of cops have never held a firearm until they've gone thru the academy.

Most cops cannot afford to go out and spend hundreds of dollars target practicing like civilians do. To most civilians shooting is a hobby. To a cop on the street shooting is a nightmare. The handgun or shotgun is a tool among several that they must lean to use appropriatly.

Then they are trained to UPHOLD the law. Not make the laws, change the laws or ignore the laws. They might not agree with a law (which is their god given right), and they cannot CHOOSE the laws they would like to enforce. A lot of times they CAN use descretion in how they do their job on the street. Some cops go by the letter. MOST do not. I've always stressed to cops I've instructed, that there are 3 ways to do your job. The way the State tells you to do it, they way your department tells you to do it. And, the way you think the situation you are entering dictates you to do it. (And, in the last, only YOU can make that decision).

Sorry for standing on the soapbox. But, that's the way it is.....

[robbiev]

Most cops cannot afford to go out and spend hundreds of dollars target practicing like civilians do.

Some police departments allow officers to practice as much as they want to at the academy, or at the very least, some number of rounds each month, however many officers choose not to take advantage of that. Most of the cops I know shoot twice a year (in some places, it's only once a year) and then only because the department requires it. If I could go to a range somewhere and shoot for free, I'd be there, but most of the guys I know aren't interested in it enough to practice even once a month.

Edited July 10, 2008 by robbiev

[Guest janwbrown616]

Some police departments allow officers to practice as much as they want to at the academy, or at the very least, some number of rounds each month, however many officers choose not to take advantage of that. Most of the cops I know shoot twice a year (in some places, it's only once a year) and then only because the department requires it. If I could go to a range somewhere and shoot for free, I'd be there, but most of the guys I know aren't interested in it enough to practice even once a month.

I do agree. Again, Cops are NOT made from Shooters, Cops are made into Shooters.

I know plenty of cops who can shoot better than Pros. But, there are way too many that don't shoot anymore than it takes to qualify. Most people don't go into police work to shoot guns. To me it was a great perk.

To some it's a pain or a necessary evil. That's a shame....

[Fallguy]

Well Guys, being a retired LEO (35 years Federal and local), I have to jump in here.

First people should understand that Cops are not made from Shooters, Cops are made into Shooters. A lot of cops have never held a firearm until they've gone thru the academy.

Most cops cannot afford to go out and spend hundreds of dollars target practicing like civilians do. To most civilians shooting is a hobby. To a cop on the street shooting is a nightmare. The handgun or shotgun is a tool among several that they must lean to use appropriatly.

Then they are trained to UPHOLD the law. Not make the laws, change the laws or ignore the laws. They might not agree with a law (which is their god given right), and they cannot CHOOSE the laws they would like to enforce. A lot of times they CAN use descretion in how they do their job on the street. Some cops go by the letter. MOST do not. I've always stressed to cops I've instructed, that there are 3 ways to do your job. The way the State tells you to do it, they way your department tells you to do it. And, the way you think the situation you are entering dictates you to do it. (And, in the last, only YOU can make that decision).

Sorry for standing on the soapbox. But, that's the way it is.....

Well said.....climb up on the box anytime.