Serious Dilemma On My Hands

[TripleDigitRide]

No, this is not gun related, but I really need to get this off my chest. Some possible feedback from parents would also be nice.

For those of you who don't already know, I'm a single father (with a very helpful girlfriend, who is not my daughters mother) of a beautiful 9 year old daughter. She means EVERYTHING to me, and now I'm being forced to make a decision I had hoped I'd never have to make.

I've had full custody of my daughter for roughly 2 years, due to some very serious issues with my daughters mother. She's battled with drugs and alcohol. She feels the need to put her scumbag boyfriends before her children. She has two other children (not mine) living with her at the present moment, BTW. She is always with men (men used lightly) who are drug addicts, alcoholics, and are often in and out of jail. She doesn't see any reason to have a job. She has a fairly wealthy family who gives her a home, vehicles, and pay her bills, BTW. Over the last 2 years, she has seen my daughter very few times (her choice), and very rarely bothers to pick up the phone. She has not paid one red cent in court ordered child support. Now she's taking advice from her lowlife friends, who suggested she claim a back injury, which would possibly allow her to obtain disability, which would possibly prevent Child Support Services from forcing her to pay child support. The child support issue is the only reason she's attempting to obtain disability. The list could go on and on, but you should have a pretty good idea as to what type of person she is.

The issue I'm struggling with is, should I allow my daughter to have any contact with her mother?

I struggled with myself for a very long time when it came to gaining full custody of my daughter. Not because I didn't want her with me, but I didn't want her to hate me for taking me from her mother. I knew she wasn't in the best of living situations, but at her age, she doesn't see things quite like I do. Finally, I had no choice. Things were getting to the point where there were no other options. To this day, I honestly believe I made the right decision. Her quality of life is so much better than it would have even been had I continued to allow her to stay with her mother. There was only one option, IMHO.

In the two years my daughter has been with me, her mother has made almost no real attempts to clean up her life. In the last 2 years, she became pregnant by some guy who also struggles with dependency issues. He was just recently released from serving several month in jail. He's now living with her, their infant daughter, and her 15 year old son. Her son is also going down a very similar path. Since his preschool day, all the way to present time, he's been kicked out of every school he's attended. He's also been arrested for stealing beer from a local store in their area. I know he's been known to use drugs, smoke cigarettes, and drink alcohol. He's nothing but trouble, and his mother has done nothing to help him.

I never wanted to keep my daughter from her mother, but I'm not sure if I have a choice. My daughter can become a totally different person (not in a good way), from simply talking to her mother on the telephone. Spending any amount of time with her mother becomes a total disaster. She's not the same person when she comes back. Luckily, neither of these happens all that often, but when they do, it's a nightmare. Her mother tells her to lie to me. She tries to teach my daughter ways to be dishonest with me. Mainly how to do something without me knowing or finding out. Even though my daughter has very little dealings with her mother, the transition has not been a very smooth one.

My daughter does (I think) realize that her mother has issues. The problem is, I don't have answers to all her questions. I've never been the type to talk bad about her mother (when my daughter is around), and that makes answering the questions very difficult at times. I want to be honest with her, but I wonder if the truth would do more harm that good. Even at the young age of 9, my daughter knows a lot of what's going on with her mother. She knows all about the drinking, drugs, and the scumbag boyfriends she allows to shack up in her home. Her mother has made very little attempt to hide anything from my daughter. Hell, I found out she would smoke joints while driving with the children in the car. My daughter has found marijuana and paraphernalia throughout the house. She's walked in on her mother and friends doing drugs. One of the boyfriends offered crack to her 13 year old son, just so he wouldn't tell his mother what her boyfriend was doing. DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It pisses me off just to think about it.

I know to some the answer may seem very clear to some, and I guess it does to me as well. At least I think it does. I think. Can I really keep my daughter from having contact with her mother? Is that really the best answer? What other choices do I have that would also ensure (to the best of my abilities) my daughter a decent future? I'm so lost right now.

And before anyone suggests otherwise--NO I DO NOT WANT TO BE WITH HER MOTHER. NO I AM NOT JEALOUS THAT SHE IS WITH OTHER MEN.

We have been apart for many many years. She was not this way when we were together. I'm not saying it was because of me, but she didn't start going downhill until our seperation. This has absolutely nothing to do with anything other than my daughters own well being.

I apologise for being so verbose, but I really needed to get this off my chest.

Edited July 9, 2008 by TripleDigitRide

[dralarms]

At 9 years old she is old enough to understand. Sit her down, explain the whole situation to her, explain that for her own protection you need to restrict her access to her mother, until her mother gets straight at least. Show her that you love her and trust her and that being honest is is the only way to get through this life. The courts will side with you but I know that is not what you are worried about, you are worried about placing a road block between you and your daughter over this situation. If the mother insists on visitation, then go to court and get the courts to make it SUPERVISED.

i don't know the woman but she does not deserve to have any contact with her daughter and the state needs to step in and take the other 2 away as well.

[Rightwinger]

This will be long and hard to read!

The issue I'm struggling with is, should I allow my daughter to have any contact with her mother?

HELL NO

[Guest strelcevina]

i feel you on that.

there is old saying in my country

"your parents can be your best friends or worst enemy's"

from your story i can see that you are best friend to your child. and you should keep her away from sick influence your ex can have on her.

phone call yes

any other contact HELL NO

[Guest utarch00]

I do not think there is a right answer. I think for her own well being, you need to keep her out of harms way, however you take that. The other side is that if you do keep her away from her mother, she can grow to resent you for doing it. She might not, but if she does, it will not be good. I was in a similar situation at that age, minus the drugs and multiple partners, but long story short, my father cheated on my mother and it went down hill from there. Unfortunately, I like your daughter was to young to understand what was going on. Life was screwed up. My mother gave me the opportunity to see my father and on my own, I made my own opinions of my father. I do not have a relationship with my father and have not for the last 20 years. It was my choice and I was able to see him for what he truly was, on my own and I think that was for the best.

In conclusion, do not have an answer for you. I think you are the only one who knows the answer. I feel for you, because you are in a lose-lose situation. Good Luck.

[NuTcAsE]

I think if you told her mother that if she left you and your daughter alone, and you would forget about the child support. I bet she'd take you up on that.

As for your daughter, you have to do what is BEST for HER no matter how hard it seems. She will probably rebel against you but, she will appreciate it when she grows up. Don't feel like you're a bad parent, (I would wrestle with it too..). You are the one who is forced into this decision.

[TripleDigitRide]

I think if you told her mother that if she left you and your daughter alone, and you would forget about the child support. I bet she'd take you up on that.

I have already given that some serious thought. I will likely attempt that route.

Thanks to everyone for your advice.

[R1100R]

Do whats best for your little girl. Period!! Maybe a professional can talk to your Daughter so you don't always look like the bad guy.

[Guest Hyaloid]

At nine, she is old enough to know and hear the truth. It is your prime directive in life to give her every tool and option possible to avoid dangerous situations. Sometimes, that might even mean cutting ties with her mother.

I would not embellish... I would not call names or otherwise disparage her mother. Just tell it like it is, and tell your daughter that you love her too much to allow her to be caught up in her mother's self destruction, and that it is the hardest decision you have ever had to make.

I would suggest some professional help to get you through this as a family unit. If nothing else, it will give your daughter an outlet for her feelings and emotions other than you or her mother. The earlier the better.

Also, IANAL, but I would consider contacting one if you haven't already (sounds like you have), and get the legal paperwork trail on your side should the mother lose her marbles and come after custody.

[TripleDigitRide]

Do whats best for your little girl. Period!! Maybe a professional can talk to your Daughter so you don't always look like the bad guy.

When she gets back from her summer vacation (with my parents), I'm going to find her some professional help. Actually, find US some professional help. I'm sure I need it as much as she does, if not more.

[Guest Fuel]

I have a 4 year old and 12 year old son. If I was in a similar situation I have to say I would do all I could to eliminate contact beyond a phone call. Your childs safety and well being are more important than some tenuous relationship with a dead beat parent. When she's old enough she'll realize why you did waht you did.

Sorry man. Sounds like a bad situation.

[Guest I_AM_WOOD]

wow as a new father I pray that i'm never in your shoes and I lack the reasoning to comprehend how one ( the mother ) could put a child in this situation. Your doing great as a father and headed down the right path with getting some consoling help for your daughter. I wish you luck and my prayers.

[Guest Lefty]

I'm a father of two girls and try honesty as a pole star. I would not facilitate reckless behavior by covering up anything, but I wouldn't want to make a lifestyle attractive by demonizing it either. Tough situation.

[saintsfanbrian]

Okay -

1 - is there court ordered visitation? If so, there really is nothing you can do until you get that changed. If she is as bad as you say (and I don't doubt she is) then there shouldn't be a problem with changing her visitation to supervised in a common ground place.

2- if there is no court ordered visitation I would tell the mother to piss up a rope. Don't bother with the child support she isn't paying and just leave you both alone.

P.S. - an "anonymous" call to the police about the drugs and paraphernalia et al would be worth it in my opinion.

[skipsfirearms]

Terrible situation. My prayers are with you that all comes out OK.

[towerclimber37]

At nine, she is old enough to know and hear the truth. It is your prime directive in life to give her every tool and option possible to avoid dangerous situations. Sometimes, that might even mean cutting ties with her mother.

I would not embellish... I would not call names or otherwise disparage her mother. Just tell it like it is, and tell your daughter that you love her too much to allow her to be caught up in her mother's self destruction, and that it is the hardest decision you have ever had to make.

I would suggest some professional help to get you through this as a family unit. If nothing else, it will give your daughter an outlet for her feelings and emotions other than you or her mother. The earlier the better.

Also, IANAL, but I would consider contacting one if you haven't already (sounds like you have), and get the legal paperwork trail on your side should the mother lose her marbles and come after custody.

I agree with Hyaloid.

I don't have children of my own, but I do have a rather large pool of nephews and nieces (54 at last count); Honesty is always the best policy because children WILL remember everything. they're like walking recorders and they will mirror what they learn from the ones they're around the most.

If it were MY daughter, I would definitely ensure that she was safe first and foremost. that would take precedence over everything. If that meant letting the authorities know of her mothers' activities in order to secure a safe environment for my child..then so be it. I wouldn't embellish anything, but I would definitely tell the truth and secure the safety of my child.

the alternative to this is to allow your child to go back into that environment without any responsible adult to look out for her interests or well being.

I'm sorry to hear that you're in that situation.

Fight for your child and ensure her safety first and always.

Edited July 9, 2008 by towerclimber37

[Guest utarch00]

P.S. - an "anonymous" call to the police about the drugs and paraphernalia et al would be worth it in my opinion.

+1

[Guest db99wj]

I read this last night and have been thinking about it. I agree with Hyaloid, Saintsfan and Tower, she is 9, I have one of those, it is amazing what they know, what they pick up on and how much they can handle. Good luck.

I am guessing your daughter will want to see her mother. Part of me says she should be able too. On the other hand because the mothers actions, hell no. Any visit would have to be supervised, any phone call would be monitored and recorded(check legal issues of course). If you haven't already, document everything, pictures, video whatever you could use to protect your daughter. Seems like, no personal experience - just heresay, courts favor the mothers of most situations, you would have to prove that she is unfit, which undoubtly she is from what you have told us and I would bet we don't know everything. With that said, document, document, take Saintsfan's advice on the anonymous phone call, especially since there are other kids are living in that.

Edited July 9, 2008 by db99wj
added to check legal issues part

[Seaslug]

First of all, let me preface my comments by saying that I used to be a licensed professional counselor specializing in child and family therapy. I worked at three different residential facilities treating troubled kids, and I also headed up an outpatient program for the same. I have seen the worst family dynamics and heard the most horrible stories that you can possibly imagine.

That being said, one thing that I had to learn early on in my career is that you can not FORCE a child to give up on his or her parent. No matter how big a scumbag Mom or Dad is, the child will still crave his or her attention and approval. Even if the child berates the parent him/herself, he/she is likely to turn on anyone else who joins in. While you would certainly be well within your rights (and I imagine the court would agree) to restrict your daughter's visitation with her mother, you will need to prepare yourself for the potential consequences of doing so. In a worst-case scenario, your daughter could displace all of her anger and resentment onto you, thus making you "the bad guy" and preventing her from confronting the real source of her angst (Mom). As a father myself, I can appreciate your desire to shield your daughter from any and all pain. However, there are some unpleasant things in life that we all DO need to experience, as this is how we learn and grow.

In the end, you must choose the course of action that's best for your daughter, and only you can decide what that actually is. In the meantime, be prepared to listen, choose your words carefully, withhold judgment, and (here's the hardest part) avoid giving advice or telling your daughter how she SHOULD feel. I applaud your willingness to seek counsel for you both. This is a sign of true strength, and not weakness. Best of luck to both of you.

[Guest Hyaloid]

First of all, let me preface my comments by saying that I used to be a licensed professional counselor specializing in child and family therapy. I worked at three different residential facilities treating troubled kids, and I also headed up an outpatient program for the same. I have seen the worst family dynamics and heard the most horrible stories that you can possibly imagine.

That being said, one thing that I had to learn early on in my career is that you can not FORCE a child to give up on his or her parent. No matter how big a scumbag Mom or Dad is, the child will still crave his or her attention and approval. Even if the child berates the parent him/herself, he/she is likely to turn on anyone else who joins in. While you would certainly be well within your rights (and I imagine the court would agree) to restrict your daughter's visitation with her mother, you will need to prepare yourself for the potential consequences of doing so. In a worst-case scenario, your daughter could displace all of her anger and resentment onto you, thus making you "the bad guy" and preventing her from confronting the real source of her angst (Mom). As a father myself, I can appreciate your desire to shield your daughter from any and all pain. However, there are some unpleasant things in life that we all DO need to experience, as this is how we learn and grow.

In the end, you must choose the course of action that's best for your daughter, and only you can decide what that actually is. In the meantime, be prepared to listen, choose your words carefully, withhold judgment, and (here's the hardest part) avoid giving advice or telling your daughter how she SHOULD feel. I applaud your willingness to seek counsel for you both. This is a sign of true strength, and not weakness. Best of luck to both of you.

You obviously have great experience in this field. But, there is a difference in shielding from emotional pain, and in shielding from potential physical pain and drug abuse.

TDR's daughter has NO business being around an active drug user and her scum bag(s) du jour. She does not need to "experience" that.

The mom cleans up her act, then yeah, ease back into the visitations. Until then, no way on God's great green earth my daughter would go to that situation.

IMHO opinion of course, the rest of your post I agree with .

[BryanP]

I would only allow contact under fully supevised (by you) conditions. Nothing else would be acceptable.

[Seaslug]

You obviously have great experience in this field. But, there is a difference in shielding from emotional pain, and in shielding from potential physical pain and drug abuse.

TDR's daughter has NO business being around an active drug user and her scum bag(s) du jour. She does not need to "experience" that.

The mom cleans up her act, then yeah, ease back into the visitations. Until then, no way on God's great green earth my daughter would go to that situation.

IMHO opinion of course, the rest of your post I agree with .

Didn't say she should. Perhaps I should've been more clear. I think the general consensus on this board would be that unsupervised visitation of any kind is probably not in the daughter's best interests at this point. I wanted to make sure I stopped short, however, of telling TDR that this is what he SHOULD do. As I noted in my original post, only he can decide what's truly best for his daughter, but he needs to be prepared to make an informed decision, rather than a reactive one. IMHO, trying to end any and all contact with Mom at this point could ultimately be just as destructive as the alternative.

Some have advocated restricting contact to phone calls only. No one would blame TDR if that were the path he chose, but there are other options. Here in Knoxville, there are a handful of local agencies that will host supervised visitation. If Mom shows up high, she'll be asked to leave and forfeit her time. I've never been to Hendersonville, but I'm sure the court could make a recommendation for something local. My personal feeling is that supervised visitation would at least allow Daughter to focus on Mom and (hopefully) begin to see her for what she really is. It's EXTREMELY important, however, that she arrive at that conclusion for herself. Kids who are not allowed to work through issues for themselves retain them, and unresolved issues can manifest themselves as all manner of physical, emotional, and social problems throughout adolescence and on into adulthood.

I hope this clarifies my position. It's just my $0.02, and I want to be clear that I don't presume to tell anyone how they should raise their own children (at least, not anymore...lol).

[Guest Angel 24/7]

I would get all the help she needs (professionally) for her. If you don't know how to answer the questions in a 9 years way, get help.Pay someone who can. there is nothing wrong with that.

In my opinion you are a wonderful father for just worring about your baby girl & how these things will affect her life.

You will be able to find a way that works for you guys.

I would ask her to give up her rights.If she doesn't I would not let my baby go without suppervision no over night stays.

BTW, I thank god everyday I am blessed with having Allan.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Didn't say she should. Perhaps I should've been more clear. I think the general consensus on this board would be that unsupervised visitation of any kind is probably not in the daughter's best interests at this point. I wanted to make sure I stopped short, however, of telling TDR that this is what he SHOULD do. As I noted in my original post, only he can decide what's truly best for his daughter, but he needs to be prepared to make an informed decision, rather than a reactive one. IMHO, trying to end any and all contact with Mom at this point could ultimately be just as destructive as the alternative.

Some have advocated restricting contact to phone calls only. No one would blame TDR if that were the path he chose, but there are other options. Here in Knoxville, there are a handful of local agencies that will host supervised visitation. If Mom shows up high, she'll be asked to leave and forfeit her time. I've never been to Hendersonville, but I'm sure the court could make a recommendation for something local. My personal feeling is that supervised visitation would at least allow Daughter to focus on Mom and (hopefully) begin to see her for what she really is. It's EXTREMELY important, however, that she arrive at that conclusion for herself. Kids who are not allowed to work through issues for themselves retain them, and unresolved issues can manifest themselves as all manner of physical, emotional, and social problems throughout adolescence and on into adulthood.

I hope this clarifies my position. It's just my $0.02, and I want to be clear that I don't presume to tell anyone how they should raise their own children (at least, not anymore...lol).

Ok, now I agree with you 100%. Thanks for taking the time to clarify your position.

[TripleDigitRide]

There is no court ordered visitation. Full custody was granted to me roughly 2 years ago. No mention of visitation at that time.

14 months later, I went to court for child support. I gave her the first 12 months as an opportunity to get her act together. She did not do anything of the sort. Again, no mention of visitation was mentioned at this time.

"Someone" has made multiple "anonymous" calls to the Department of Children Services. To say they [DCS/DHS, whatever] is a joke would be an understatement. The first visit they made to her home resulted in almost no action. They told her that if she could come down to their offices and pass a drug test, they would close the case. Problem was, they allowed her days (3, I think) to take the drug test. This allowed her the time to use supplements to rid her system of the drugs. Actually, more like cover the sign of drugs in her system. The second visit yielded slighly better results, but not what was needed. IIRC, they made her clean her house, and fix a few broken windows. I guess they already have their hands full, so dedicating much time to any one case isn't an option.

Okay -

1 - is there court ordered visitation? If so, there really is nothing you can do until you get that changed. If she is as bad as you say (and I don't doubt she is) then there shouldn't be a problem with changing her visitation to supervised in a common ground place.

2- if there is no court ordered visitation I would tell the mother to piss up a rope. Don't bother with the child support she isn't paying and just leave you both alone.

P.S. - an "anonymous" call to the police about the drugs and paraphernalia et al would be worth it in my opinion.

Edited July 9, 2008 by TripleDigitRide