Argh! Yes, I'm doing it, HATE ME! (Ak vs AR)

[G27]

One thing to remmber that alot of people dont think about is that if it's a head for the hill's issue. Something that could go a long time without any cleaning would be a plus. Since a cleaning kit and stuff would not be on your high list of things to grab and something you would not want to barter for later.

That's my point about 'reliability' in the OP - I need something that will not only work in adverse conditions but will still work for thousands of rounds if I have to BO in a SHTF situation and get separated from some of my cleaning stuff. I keep my Glock perfectly clean, but I also know I can run it for a long time without cleaning and it will perform - that's what I want in a rifle.

Looks like a Saiga 7.62x39 is the way to go, along with plenty of hi-cap mags. I'll add a good AR lower to that (along with some AR mags) as well for the future...

[Guest bkelm18]

Ah... now that's a valid reason for conversion. However, mine in .223... standard AK mags are pointless, correct?

You still have to convert in some fashion if you are going to use high cap mags. According to 922r, you must swap out 4 foreign made parts with 4 US made parts for it to be legal. The mag, if its US made, counts as 3.

A little bit of conversion is needed for it to accept standard AK high capacity magazines.

For it to accept the AK mags, you aren't really "converting" anything, you're just filing a little off the mag catch so the AK mag will fit. To remain legal though, that's where the conversion comes in.

Edited July 8, 2008 by bkelm18

[molonlabetn]

I have seen very few ARs take a dump. I've seen just as many cheap AKs fail... If you get an AK, get a good one. That means spending nearly as much as on a cheap AR. That said, I vastly preferred the $750 AK I had to the $750 AR I had previously... so within those budget constraints the answer is obvious.

The difference is the cost, and what you get for that money is a more user-friendly platform. Either gun will be as reliable as the workmanship and ammo put into it. I'd be insane to say that I'd prefer my ex-AK to a $2000+ AR that is set-up properly.

[Guest bkelm18]

No doubt that a top of the line AR is in a FAR better class than an AK, but it just boils down to personal preference. If I had to choose, I'd go AK, but I wouldn't be displeased if I got stuck with an AR by any means.

[Guest Mugster]

Alot of the problems you run into with m-16's in the military, a civilian is not going to hit. With a rifle in good shape and good mags, they'll run as many rounds as you want to shoot through them at the range or wherever with no cleaning. A full range of optics are available and the platform responds well to tinkering.

The AK comes into its own in very nasty conditions. Loose tolerances help when your low crawling down a muddy creek or something and have an untrained peasant with no oil and no idea how to take a rifle apart and clean it. I doubt you'd be doing this in any event, and if you did, you'd probably run a patch down the bore at least and clean off the gunk.

I say get the ar. You want the accuracy for shooting fun. Its powerful enough to do the job. The only reason i see to get an ak (imo) is shooting the cheap steel cased ammo...and its not really that cheap anymore. That and saving money over an AR. To get a decent ak, you'll now pay just as much.

A smart buy might be a 5.45x39 ar upper to plink off the cheap bulk 5.45x39 ammo or a 7.62x39 upper if you want a deer/hog hunting rig that plinks relatively cheap.

[Guest superslacker]

I've had both, but currently I have a Rock River A4 flat top and I absolutely love it. I have more fun shooting it that any other gun I own. It is a pain to clean, though, but I've never had a problem with it. I did have a Bushmaster AR a while back, and it was garbage. I had nothing but problems with it, and eventually sold it. AR's will probably hold their value better as well, so you could consider it a better investment if you're looking at it that way.

[G27]

The AK comes into its own in very nasty conditions. Loose tolerances help when your low crawling down a muddy creek or something and have an untrained peasant with no oil and no idea how to take a rifle apart and clean it. I doubt you'd be doing this in any event, and if you did, you'd probably run a patch down the bore at least and clean off the gunk.

I say get the ar. You want the accuracy for shooting fun. Its powerful enough to do the job. The only reason i see to get an ak (imo) is shooting the cheap steel cased ammo...and its not really that cheap anymore. That and saving money over an AR. To get a decent ak, you'll now pay just as much.

Aww, crap, that's a great point, too. Even in a SHTF scenario, it's unlikely I'm going to be doing any thing remotely resembling military maneuvers - it'll be a long-arm to help thwart issues from the home more than anything else...

Argh - this decision is infuriating.

[Guest Steelharp]

You still have to convert in some fashion if you are going to use high cap mags.

When I got it, I bought a 30 rd .223 mag with it. Guess I just need to get 2 or 3 more of those...

[Guest Revelator]

Crims, my personal, subjective opinion is that the 7.62 round is better than the 223/5.56. But I'm not a ballistics expert. Someone earlier on the thread mentioned getting an M14. I read an article recently that reported some soldiers in Iraq are using the M14 rather than an M4 because of the bigger round. Anyway, for me, if it was an emergency situation and I had to hunt some medium or big game for food, I'd want a 7.62. I too have been in this quandry you are in, and actually I have decided to get a simple, humble SKS. I don't want to spend a lot of money because I'm not going to shoot it that much. Maybe a few times a year. And I'm not at all interested in tactical accessories. Once I realized what would work for me, I found peace. You will too.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

I read an article recently that reported some soldiers in Iraq are using the M14 rather than an M4 because of the bigger round.

This is usually in small numbers, and they go to the designated marksman (sniper, if you will) of the group. They prefer the larger round due to the ballistics, and need to reach out and touch someone. Everyone else gets the M4.

Guns & Ammo's "Book of the AR-15" magazine (display until Aug 2008) has a really good article titled "THE M4: UNDERPOWERED AND OBSOLETE?".

The author confronts the general views that the M855 round is 'feeble', 'poorly designed', 'suitable only for varmints', or 'barely fazes an adversary even when placed center-of-mass'... or that the M4 itself is 'woefully unreliable' and 'unable to deal with the harsh conditions of Afghanistan and Iraq ... due to it's constant malfunctions or problems' to list a few of the general ideas out there. He gets his info, not only from his own experiences, but from the men serving over there. Rather than talk to the select few of Spec Ops, he chose to talk to the average Joe that was issued the platform. He assisted in marksmanship training for Crazyhorse Troop, 3rd Sq, 7th US Cav, at Fort Stewart... and then later linked back up with their sister unit, Bonecrusher Troop, in Iraq. During his time on the streets of the Adhamiya District of Baghdad, he had the chance to talk to those troops as well as see how they performed in actual combat.

You might be surprised, with all the misinformation out there on how our troops are having so many problems and poor results with the M4 platform, on what the pretty much unanimous opinion was. Worth picking up and reading, as it's a really well written 14-page article.

EDIT: The article also covers all the academics of the round vs others, history of the M16/M4, etc... so it's not just about the personal experiences/opinions, and provides plenty of factual info.

Edited July 8, 2008 by Verbal Kint

[G27]

Anyway, for me, if it was an emergency situation and I had to hunt some medium or big game for food, I'd want a 7.62. I too have been in this quandry you are in, and actually I have decided to get a simple, humble SKS. I don't want to spend a lot of money because I'm not going to shoot it that much. Maybe a few times a year. And I'm not at all interested in tactical accessories. Once I realized what would work for me, I found peace. You will too.

That's actually a good point, too. While I like the elegance of the AR design, I'm def not into the 'tacticool' stuff lots of folks seem to be into. And like you, i doubt i'll get to spend very much time shooting it as there aren't really many options for shooting a decently powered rifle in our area.

SKS, hrmm, not a bad idea at all...

[molonlabetn]

One option might be a 6.8 AR. Best of both worlds... or a .308 AR10.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

One option might be a 6.8 AR. Best of both worlds... or a .308 AR10.

I actually started my AR-quest off by looking at the 6.8 round. Was a ton of hype out there that made me desire this platform and caliber. However, the more I read and heard from friends/soldiers from the sandbox and the more I thought about it... I opted for the 5.56/.223 round.

Actual opinion and performance reports differed quite a bit from the press's initial hype of it being the solution to the problem. That and the availability of ammo, made me rethink the caliber choice. While my AR is almost-soley going to be for shooting paper, steel plates, etc (plinking and occasional events) I want it to be a well-made tool for a SHTF scenario if one were to ever occur. I don't want to be in a situtation where I'm low on ammo and scrounging around trying to find more 6.8SPC, when there's an abundance of NATO 5.56 covering the globe. Pricing and availability, is also a good factor, if you want to look at the every-day "normal" scenario as well.

[molonlabetn]

To be perfectly honest... even after I get a tacticool AR built, I'd still be far more likely to grab the Marlin 1984 before anything else.

[G27]

To be perfectly honest... even after I get a tacticool AR built, I'd still be far more likely to grab the Marlin 1984 before anything else.

Yah, which is why the mention of the SKS made me stop and consider those. I had one back in the early 90's and it was fun to shoot, accurate enough, tough as nails, etc. If i coudl find a decent condition Ruusiian SKS now, I'd likely snap one up, but don't know where to look.

I suppose the Chinese SKS's would be good as well.

I just need to make a decision and move forward before it's too late...

[Guest Revelator]

There's a gun show here in Memphis the 26th and 27th at the Fairgrounds. There will be plenty of Simonovs there (and Kalashnikovs and whatever other kinds of "ovs").

[G27]

There's a gun show here in Memphis the 26th and 27th at the Fairgrounds. There will be plenty of Simonovs there (and Kalashnikovs and whatever other kinds of "ovs").

Hrm, hadn't heard that - which one is it? Any more info on it?

Thanks, BTW!

[Guest Revelator]

Well, I thought it was the 26th and 27th. That's what the TGO calendar says: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=147&day=2008-7-26&c=1

However, the RK website says it's August 23rd and 24th: http://www.rkshows.com/south/tennessee.htm

But there is one in Jackson the weekend after next. If you're coming from Arlington, it's probably about the same drive to there as it is to the fairgrounds.

[G27]

Well, I thought it was the 26th and 27th. That's what the TGO calendar says: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=147&day=2008-7-26&c=1

However, the RK website says it's August 23rd and 24th: http://www.rkshows.com/south/tennessee.htm

But there is one in Jackson the weekend after next. If you're coming from Arlington, it's probably about the same drive to there as it is to the fairgrounds.

Great, thanks for the head's up.

[Guest superslacker]

I went to that gun show at the fair grounds last year and it wasn't very impressive. I probably won't go back. There were really not that many guns there for a show in a city the size of Memphis.

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

Why "converted?" Is there some advantage to doing this? Or is it basically a cosmetic thing?

Firing an AK with a good fire control group and a pistol grip is much more ergonomic and pleasant than firing a standard Saiga imported as a sporter with the relocated FCG.

Ah... now that's a valid reason for conversion. However, mine in .223... standard AK mags are pointless, correct?

AK mags wouldn't be pointless, but, if over ten rounds in capacity, would most like be illegal.

About caliber.......I thought long and hard over that one. 7.6x39, inside of a hundred yards, is damn gutsy compared to .223/5.56. Especially against a harder target. .223, however, is just so much lighter when weighing out 300 or 400 rounds (ten loaded mags) for a BOB. For those of you who hike and backpack, you know the difference even a few ounces can make.

[towerclimber37]

What is your purpose with the rifle? SHTF? Plinking? Hunting? All three? Something else?

Both platforms have their advantages and disadvantages. I own several variations of each, and I like them.

If I ever have to head for the hills with only what I can carry on my person, it will be with a converted Saiga in .223.

if it were me, it would be an m1a, or a SA-58. it's heavier but the range and accuracy are well worth it!

after that it would be an AR platform simply because they're more accurate and I know that platform.

remember the adage? speed is fine but accuracy is final... as for penetration, unless you're shooting at an apc, a steel core .223 would do a handsome job on pretty much what ever comes your way.

[Magiccarpetrides]

Why dont you just get a Saiga in .308? Though I will tell you compared to shooting the 7.62x39 Saiga its a whole different animal...course the barrel on my .308 is a 22" also.

[Guest Mugster]

if it were me, it would be an m1a, or a SA-58. it's heavier but the range and accuracy are well worth it!

after that it would be an AR platform simply because they're more accurate and I know that platform.

remember the adage? speed is fine but accuracy is final... as for penetration, unless you're shooting at an apc, a steel core .223 would do a handsome job on pretty much what ever comes your way.

I shot a dpms lr308ap4 on monday. I was so impressed I called hero gear, and they are trying to get me one, but it looks like a long wait right now.

You can go nose to charging handle if your tough enough.

[G27]

OK, it had been a few years since I handled an SKS or an AK and after doing so at Classic Arms (hi Chance), I've decided I can't tolerate the build quality (and friggen weight) of the SKS or AK (especially including the ammo), so I've officially decided to do an AR in .223.

I know you'll all sleep better tonight knowing this, so I thought I'd share. You're welcome.