TN Bill to remove restrictions on knife possession and carry

[Guest gunlobbyist]

Hit up the TN Sheriff's Association leaders as well:

 

Executive Director is Sheriff Terry Ashe (ret.): terryashe@tnsheriffs.com
President is Sheriff David Andrews: sheriffdkandrews@putnamco.org

[JohnC]

Hello All,

 

I am the lobbyist for Knife Rights. I have worked this bill in at least a dozen states. We have had great victories and terribly disappointing losses. But we have never had this much genuine interest in our knife legislation in any state, I mean there are some 12 or 13 pages of comments on this one board alone! I am very glad you guys are all so supportive and interested in this bill!!! Thank you!!

 

At the capitol it has been clear that there has been a ton of emails and phone calls coming in and that's because of folks like you!

 

I would like to defend Representative Dennis. Sen Bell was the primary sponsor and Rep Dennis generously agreed to carry the bill in the House. 

 

The compromise deal was agreed to WELL before the hearing actually took place. Sen Bell and I discussed it at length before deciding to move ahead with it. We had a clear choice before us, amend the bill or have it killed. We agonized over this, discussed and debated the cost/benefit and decided it was in the best interest of knife owners in TN to move ahead with the preemption part and clear the decks for a battle on the SWB/Blade length issue next year. Sen Bell and Rep Dennis then discussed it and and came to the same conclusion. 

 

It sucks when you have to do that to a bill you have worked on for MONTHS. Then as a sponsor to have to go before a committee that has no relevance to the substance of your bill and, has threatened to kill it, and forced you to amend it is very difficult. The Finance Committee had no business with this bill because it has no fiscal impact on the state. However at some point the House analysts said it had a net +$28,000 impact on TN because of less incarcerations. That was then amended to reflect "no fiscal impact" but alas it was too late...it was already assigned to the Finance Committee. That committee was already squishy on this bill, so when the Sheriff's Association started their full court press we were at a disadvantage. I had met with most of the members of the committee and knew it was going to be very close.  I had already left TN to be in TX to lobby when the Sheriff's Association descended on the capital which makes it tough to blunt them.

 

Now knowing all that, add to the mix that the agreement to amend the bill was made well before Rep Dennis testified and he may have been angry and upset over that. That may explain his performance in the committee which I haven't had a chance to review. CapByrd may be right that Rep Dennis was not at his best but when you know in your mind that your bill has been amended it is sometimes difficult to testify with gusto. I have been in that very position at times. 

 

Having said that when we come back next year we will only be dealing with the issue of SWB's and blade length so getting our sponsor in the House up to speed on technical details will be simple. 

 

Don't blame Representative Dennis for what happened. This is the fault of squishy Republicans on the Finance Committee and the irrational arguments of the Sheriff's Assoc. 

 

Please do what you can to contact your sheriff's and your Reps there is still a vote on the remaining section of the bill!! Oh, and get ready for next session!!!!

 

Contact the Sheriff's Association and tell them how you feel:

 

 

Executive Director is Sheriff Terry Ashe (ret.): terryashe@tnsheriffs.com
President is Sheriff David Andrews: sheriffdkandrews@putnamco.org

 

Todd Rathner

Knife Rights 

Director Of Legislative Affairs

www.kniferights.org

 

 

Thank you for fighting for our rights and also for taking the time to post all of this here to inform us of the details. :up:

[Guest confidence]

Here is my letter to Sheriffs Terry Ashe (ret.) and David Andrews at the Tennessee Sheriffs' Association and a response I just received from Terry:

 

 

 

 

Dear Sheriffs,

Thank you for everything you do to keep our state safe. I have been following knife bill HB0581 and wanted to contact you to voice my concerns. My name is _____ _______ and I reside at _____________. I am __________ for a company in _______, TN.

As you know, HB0581 is a bill to remove many of the limits on knives, including the 4" rule and also allows for the state to preempt all local knife laws. As I understand, the Tennessee Sheriffs' Association has opposed  this bill and the bill has now been amended so as to drop the removal of limits on knives but keep the preemption portion only.

Gentlemen, I feel the same way about knife rights as I do about gun rights. I understand that we would all like to keep knives away from bad guys on the streets, but you and I both know that bad guys have never followed knife laws and never will. Instead, good guys who do strive to obey laws are being limited in what they can carry to defend themselves. I'll give you a very practical and real world example. I am a Handgun Carry Permit holder and I only carry where it is legal to do so with a mind to protect my family and myself. However, when I am in a local park in which the city has banned firearms, I need alternatives to defend myself because I do not carry there. One is pepper spray. Another could be a knife. However, a 4" knife is not going to be that effective of a deterrent or that practical at keeping an attacker at bay. If I was legally allowed to carry a longer knife, I believe that myself and my family would be safer.

Now the emotional response to this would be to say, "Oh no! We can't have people running around with knives everywhere in parks." But as I'm sure you know, criminals by definition disobey laws. So, like gun laws, they will violate them. This means that the law effectively only deters law-abiding citizens. Criminals will still carry a knife no matter what the law says.

Another aspect of this is that the knife laws are extremely confusing in our state. Citizens can easily find themselves inadvertently in violation of the law. Just the other day, I was talking about this knife bill with the owner of a local gun shop which sells knives and he said that as far as he knew, there were no legal restrictions on knives at all in Tennessee! That's why I'm glad for the preemption portion of this bill. It's time that the rules were the same across the board. There's no reason why your average citizen should have a minefield of confusing laws to deal with when attempting to be in compliance.

I was disappointed to hear that Tennessee Sheriffs' Association has been against this bill. I feel that less knife restrictions on law abiding citizens will make us all safer. Police can not be everywhere all the time. And Handgun Carry Permit holders are restricted as to where they can carry. By allowing citizens their knife rights, the freedoms of law abiding citizens are protected. By limiting knife rights, the bad guys are not affected in any way and nothing positive is accomplished. Only the good guys will be disarmed.

 

Please do not oppose HB0581 in its current state and please understand that as a concerned citizen, I am displeased in regards to the major weakening blows already dealt to this bill by your organization.

Thank you for your consideration of this letter and thank you to you and your officers for putting your lives on the line every day to protect the citizens of our state. We appreciate your service and dedication.

_________

 

 

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Terry Ashe <terryashe@tnsheriffs.com>
Date: Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:54 AM
Subject: RE: Knife Bill - HB0581
To: ________________
Cc: Sheriff David Andrews <sheriffdkandrews@putnamco.org>


______ thank you for your response, just so you would know I helped to right the hand gun carry bill that you have in the 1990s, Tennessee Sheriffs support the 2 nd Amendment and everything that it stands for, we were the only law enforcement group that helped make the hand gun law a reality .You can check this out with Mr. John Harris Executive Director of the Tennessee Firearms Assoc. I hope you have a bless day……Thanks….Terry

 

 

I responded to Terry with this:

 

Terry,
 

I very much appreciate your reply. Thank you for your past support of 2nd Amendment rights and your service to the people over the years. It is my strong belief that the 2nd Amendment is not limited to firearms only but to any "arms" useful for self-protection, which I believe is supported by early American history and is also supported by District of Columbia v. Heller. For that reason, I entreat you to put your support behind HB0581 in its current battered form so that the people may be granted their freedoms. In addition, I venture to ask you to support any future proposed legislation that removes the current 4" limits, etc. on knives in Tennessee.
 

Thank you for your time and consideration.

 

_________

[Guest gunlobbyist]

I responded to Terry with this:

 

Terry,
 

I very much appreciate your reply. Thank you for your past support of 2nd Amendment rights and your service to the people over the years. It is my strong belief that the 2nd Amendment is not limited to firearms only but to any "arms" useful for self-protection, which I believe is supported by early American history and is also supported by District of Columbia v. Heller. For that reason, I entreat you to put your support behind HB0581 in its current battered form so that the people may be granted their freedoms. In addition, I venture to ask you to support any future proposed legislation that removes the current 4" limits, etc. on knives in Tennessee.
 

Thank you for your time and consideration.

 

_________

Great job!!

[Guest gunlobbyist]

I would suggest that people go to the TSN FB page and post a comment maybe where they claim to support the 2A. Go ask them how that could possibly square with their opposition to HB581

 

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Tennessee-Sheriffs-Association/196553893765277?fref=ts

[Guest gunlobbyist]

Ok guys I just listened to the committee hearing and I understand the frustration of some on this board. This ClusterFoxtrot is what happens when an association like the TSN comes in at the 11th hour to change a bill. 

 

Ashe admits"this is something we did not flag early on" meaning the bozos from the TSN were NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THIS BILL UNTIL NOW!!

 

This is VERY frustrating. I promise you that Knife Rights WILL be back to make this happen next session. This is also demonstrative of why the Finance Committee has no business working this bill. The fiscal note as I explained above was a mistake of the legislative staff and caused this problem. I think we could have gotten this passed in Judiciary Committee.

 

We all have every right to be very aggravated!!!

 

TR

[Guest KiloFive]

For what its worth, here is the message I sent to Sheriff Ashe:

 

 

 

 

 

Hello Sheriff Ashe,

I would appreciate a few minutes of your time as I relay my concerns regarding HB0851...my thanks in advance for your patience.

I was very encouraged that TN was following Arizona's excellent example of increasing civilian freedoms. So, I was very surprised and discouraged to learn that the TSA was against the proposed regulation changes that would have allowed law abiding TN residents to enjoy similar freedoms.

As a former cop and deputy, I have maintained my interest in martial arts and self-defense.  Combining this experience with my current occupation of psychiatrist, I'm aware that the limitations on arms are only observed by the people who present no threat.  The patients committed into our facilities for being a threat to themselves or others are absolutely not concerned with laws.  In fact, these laws increase the ease of their attacks on the innocent by limiting the civilian's options for protection.

The most important aspect of this legislation is the following:  
Respecting an establishment's desire to remain free of firearms forces me to disarm.  Yet, most places prohibiting guns do not provide private police or security to fill this void.  Legislation allowing for defensive knives would allow civilians to remain compliant with the law while remaining empowered to defend themselves and their families.  This is a critical issue that must be addressed.

As I sit with my family in a restaurant or shop in a store that prohibits my firearm, it is not uncommon at all for me to see psych ward patients who I know for a fact were committed for homicidal ideation. Now, I am disarmed, my family is exposed, and an individual who doesn't care about the law has an opportunity for revenge or to act out their delusions.

A medication change can cause a person to behave spontaneously irrationally, for example.  An even larger threat is the drug-seeking patient who hates my guts because I refused to prescribe them narcotics.  Should these encounters happen in an environment that prohibits firearms, I'm left with only the option of a small edged weapon and a prayer as I stand between the threat and my family.  As a trained and competent individual with a firearm, I see no reason why I cannot utilize the same training with an edged weapon of my choosing.

The current law makes me a criminal every time I sit down in a restaurant where every single knife on every table is illegal under current law.  I can sit at a table with their blade...the public possession of which is crime, all the while wearing a legally concealed firearm.

I can walk through WalMart with a new machete and a new butcher knife in my hands as I walk to the register, all while wearing a legally concealed firearm.  But, if I have a 4.25" blade in my pocket at the same time, I'm a criminal because of my pocket knife, not because of the machete, not because of the gun.

Likewise, I can wander through Home Depot carrying all manner of frightening tools, all while legally concealing a firearm. Yet, a 5" blade is a crime, not my gun, not the hatchet, swing blade, axe, or roofing hammer.

As a knife hobbyist, a martial artist, the protector of my family, an ex-cop, and a physician, I can not think of a single reason that these arcane and misguided regulations remain on the books.  'West Side Story' ginned up an irrational fear of 'switchblades' because they were one-handed. Now, one-handed knives are legally in pockets all over the state.  Similarly, butterfly knives, the safest folding knife design in existence, are vilified because they are one-handed, despite the fact that they reduce the risk of injury and amputation under hard use.  Frankly, a one-handed knife is a must for anyone who works in the emergency services. As a physician, I can think of instances where having only one hand to manipulate a blade is the difference between saving a life or losing it.

We sit around the table and grouse about the nonsensical laws from clueless politicians.  We commiserate with friends and family that the world has lost its common sense, claiming that if 'we were in charge' this nonsense would stop.  The modern age is obsessed with political correctness, throwing logic to the winds.  HB0851 was an answer to the modern obsession of valuing emotion over logic, a small answer, but a successful measure nonetheless.  

I would really like to here your views on this, pro and con, so that we can successfully address these concerns when the next legislative session arrives.  I will be more than happy to relay your replies and concerns to those with whom I am in contact.  I look forward to hearing from you.  And thank you again for your time.

Sincerely,

*Dr.KiloFive*

Edited April 12, 2013 by KiloFive

[wewoapsiak]

Tn sheriff's association leader?



Sent from my SPH-L710 using Xparent Red Tapatalk 2

[Guest KiloFive]

Ok guys I just listened to the committee hearing and I understand the frustration of some on this board. This ClusterFoxtrot is what happens when an association like the TSN comes in at the 11th hour to change a bill. 

 

Ashe admits"this is something we did not flag early on" meaning the bozos from the TSN were NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THIS BILL UNTIL NOW!!

 

This is VERY frustrating. I promise you that Knife Rights WILL be back to make this happen next session. This is also demonstrative of why the Finance Committee has no business working this bill. The fiscal note as I explained above was a mistake of the legislative staff and caused this problem. I think we could have gotten this passed in Judiciary Committee.

 

We all have every right to be very aggravated!!!

 

TR

 

 

Frankly, my freedoms are more important than convenience found in TN.  I would hope that the TSA ponders the law logically versus politically.  I know it sounds trite, but, my family's hobbies center around traditional pursuits (firearms, outdoors, martial arts, etc).  TN's laws negatively impact this enjoyment.  My visit to Az on an interview was fantastic because I did not have to worry about compliance, about well-meaning but misguided LEOs 'interpreting' vague laws.  My return to TN for my medical training was honestly not as joyful because the lack of freedom was noticeable in my household. 

 

I think the hardest pill to swallow is that TN followed the White Rabbit down the hole.  I can drive around with a loaded AK47/AR15/12gauge/whatever in my trunk legally and responsibly.  But, a handcrafted and very expensive butterfly or auto-knife in my pocket is a public hazard.  I'm a shrink now.  I deal with people who can't process logic.  These regulations could have been written by my patients.  It is frustrating that when an example of 'Alice in Wonderland' thinking is found, people who claim a desire to streamline our lives cough and say, "Well, we actually like that law...ornamental and ineffective, of course. But it makes us FEEL good."  This is a very, very dangerous path to tread when it is backed up by the police power of the state.

 

If the current ignorance of very simple A+B=C styled logic continues trending in the TN legislature, I am concerned that we will regress to the bad old days where self-defense (much less sporting enjoyment of a hobby) becomes frowned on.

 

Arizona has set the standard. And my recent trip revealed my friends there were loooooving their freedom from micromanagement of their rights. I would love to see that same unfettered freedom in TN.

Edited April 12, 2013 by KiloFive

[Guest gunlobbyist]

Frankly, my freedoms are more important than convenience found in TN.  I would hope that the TSA ponders the law logically versus politically.  I know it sounds trite, but, my family's hobbies center around traditional pursuits (firearms, outdoors, martial arts, etc).  TN's laws negatively impact this enjoyment.  My visit to Az on an interview was fantastic because I did not have to worry about compliance, about well-meaning but misguided LEOs 'interpreting' vague laws.  My return to TN for my medical training was honestly not as joyful because the lack of freedom was noticeable in my household. 

 

I think the hardest pill to swallow is that TN followed the White Rabbit down the hole.  I can drive around with a loaded AK47/AR15/12gauge/whatever in my trunk legally and responsibly.  But, a handcrafted and very expensive butterfly or auto-knife in my pocket is a public hazard.  I'm a shrink now.  I deal with people who can't process logic.  These regulations could have been written by my patients.  It is frustrating that when an example of 'Alice in Wonderland' thinking is found, people who claim a desire to streamline our lives cough and say, "Well, we actually like that law...ornamental and ineffective, of course. But it makes us FEEL good."  This is a very, very dangerous path to tread when it is backed up by the police power of the state.

 

If the current ignorance of very simple A+B=C styled logic continues trending in the TN legislature, I am concerned that we will regress to the bad old days where self-defense (much less sporting enjoyment of a hobby) becomes frowned on.

 

Arizona has set the standard. And my recent trip revealed my friends there were loooooving their freedom from micromanagement of their rights. I would love to see that same unfettered freedom in TN.

 

Great letter and great posts. I wish I had the capability to create a video of a switchblade knife opening vs a pump shotgun to illustrate the stupidity of Ashe's testimony. It's mot even close! Even if it were what difference does that make. This guy is a liar saying he faced SWB's on the streets as a cop. What BS

 

TR

[Guest gunlobbyist]

Tn sheriff's association leader?



Sent from my SPH-L710 using Xparent Red Tapatalk 2

 

AWESOME!!

[Guest confidence]

Excellent, KiloFive...

[Capbyrd]

I wish I could write as elegantly and intelligently as kilo five.

[hso]

Perhaps he wouldn't mind our borrowing his text and personalizing it to send our own emails?

[Guest confidence]

Here is the letter I just wrote to the sheriff of my county. Feel free to adapt it and reuse it or write your own...

 

 

 

Dear Sheriff ______,

Thank you for everything you do to keep our county safe. I have been following knife bill HB0581 and wanted to contact you to voice my concerns. My name is ____ ______ and I reside at ___________________. I am __________ for a company in ___________.

As you may know, HB0581 is a bill to remove many of the limits on knives, including the 4" rule and also allows for the state to preempt all local knife laws. As I understand, the Tennessee Sheriffs' Association has hampered the success of this bill and the bill has now been amended so as to drop the removal of limits on knives but keep the preemption portion only.

Sheriff, I feel the same way about knife rights as I do about gun rights. I understand that we would all like to keep knives away from bad guys on the streets, but you and I both know that bad guys have never followed knife laws and never will. Instead, good guys who do strive to obey laws are being limited in what they can carry to defend themselves. I'll give you a very practical and real world example. I am a Handgun Carry Permit holder and I only carry where it is legal to do so with a mind to protect my family and myself. However, when I am in a local park in which the city has banned firearms, I need alternatives to defend myself because I do not carry there. One is pepper spray. Another could be a knife. However, a 4" knife is not going to be that effective of a deterrent or that practical at keeping an attacker at bay. If I was legally allowed to carry a longer knife, I believe that myself and my family would be safer.

Now the emotional response to this would be to say, "Oh no! We can't have people running around with knives everywhere in parks." But as I'm sure you know, criminals by definition disobey laws. So, like gun laws, they will violate them. This means that the law effectively only deters law-abiding citizens. Criminals will still carry a knife no matter what the law says.

I was disappointed to hear that Tennessee Sheriffs' Association has been against this. I don't know your position, but I'm hoping that by voicing my concerns I can increase awareness of their position and entreat you to actively oppose their initiatives. Please stand up for citizens' knife rights as you have for gun rights.

Another aspect of this is that the knife laws are extremely confusing in our state. Citizens can easily find themselves inadvertently in violation of the law. Just the other day, I was talking about this knife bill with the owner of a local gun shop which sells knives and he said that as far as he knew, there were no legal restrictions on knives at all in Tennessee! That's why I'm glad for the preemption portion of this bill. It's time that the rules were the same across the board. There's no reason why your average citizen should have a minefield of confusing laws to deal with when attempting to be in compliance. Please encourage the Tennessee Sheriffs' Association not to oppose HB0581 in its current state and please express displeasure to them in regards to the major weakening blows they've already dealt to this bill.

Thank you for your consideration and thank you to you and your officers for putting your lives on the line every day to protect the citizens of ______ County. We appreciate you.

 

__________

 

 

I got a reply from my local sheriff today on the letter I sent him (above):

 

Mr. ______, I am a member of the Tennessee Sheriff's Association but find myself at odds with their position on this Bill. Without rehashing most of what you have already stated I will just say , I completely agree that efforts to restrict citizens "Rights" to go armed, by any measure, only effects law abiding citizens. I completely agree that criminals by definition do not obey the law.
Thank you for your support and if I can be of assistance feel free to contact me at ________.

[Guest KiloFive]

Perhaps he wouldn't mind our borrowing his text and personalizing it to send our own emails?

I'm glad y'all think it works. If you think it will help, it is yours to do with as you would like.

Kilo



God & Tribe

[Guest KiloFive]

Confidence,
Your sheriff sounds like a stand up guy.

God & Tribe

[JAB]

So what if it did sound a lot like a pump shotgun?  Would he also lobby to make recordings of pump shotguns being 'racked' illegal because they are just so, darned scary?  There are toy guns which electronically re-produce the sound of a shotgun being racked - will the Sheriff's Association lobby against those next?  That has to be one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard in my life.

Edited April 12, 2013 by JAB

[hso]

It is an illogical thing to say to get an emotional response from irrational people. 

[DJTC45]

why is legal for Police,Millatry,and Recue Personal(Fire Dept.) to carry a switchblade but for a ordinary law biding person can't ,the Sheriffs Assoc.is a joke and to make comments that a SwitchBlade sounds like a pump action shotgun just goes to show what dumb asses that they are.

[Guest tangojuliet]

Tn sheriff's association leader?



Sent from my SPH-L710 using Xparent Red Tapatalk 2

no cause its not an a$$

[Guest 270win]

The sheriff's assoc is part of the reason you can't carry in a lot of parks, some govt buildings are posted, and no carry in schools.  They want the monopoly on carrying, but want to say they support 2nd Amend by giving you a heavily restricted handgun carry permit.

[Guest KiloFive]

It may be time for like minded individuals to form a coalition of folks who will run for sheriff in their counties...kind of a 'free state project' approach to returning liberty to the people, county by county; focusing on the counties where the current occupant is an obstructionist.

 

Having not been involved in the local shooting scene because of educational responsibilities, I don't have my finger on the local pulse. But, I would imagine that there are many folks who are involved enough to centralize quite a bit of voting power behind a candidate who remembers that the Constitution didn't GIVE anyone a thing, that it merely stated natural rights that ALREADY existed from the dawn of mans' first steps. Understanding that sheriffs are elected by churches and lawyers, I'm not sure where this would go. But, as pissed off as this issue makes me, I'd certainly put my support behind that kind of candidate.

 

Edited to add: A surefire way to circumvent the BS from the political hacks in the State and Federal towers would be to deputize every able-bodied man and woman in the county who desires to participate...the very voters who elect the sheriff. This would recruit retired cops and .mil to investigate cold cases and focus on lower priority issues, would provide a greater level of security in the schools and social events. And most importantly, if anything went down you would have a Swiss style citizenry who is on the same sheet of music as full-time LEOs. Wishful thinking, I know. But, one can dream and scheme.

Edited April 13, 2013 by KiloFive

[RichardR]

It is very unfortunate, extremely saddening & more than just a little scary that the leadership of the Tennessee Sheriff Association were seemingly very eager to violate of their sacred oaths to uphold & defend the Constitution in order to prevent these "stolen freedoms" from being restored.

[Troutburger]

It is very unfortunate, extremely saddening & more than just a little scary that the leadership of the Tennessee Sheriff Association were seemingly very eager to violate of their sacred oaths to uphold & defend the Constitution in order to prevent these "stolen freedoms" from being restored.

Our senators proved to be eager beavers for infringement also. Sad week all around.