Can I not carry legaly without a permit?

[Guest Southern Christian Armed]

I have files of paperwork and printed documents that state that constitutional law supersedes state and local law. If that is a fact , I can leaglly carry a loaded handgun without a permit. As the second ammendment states a state can not infringe upon the constituition and supersee its writings and laws. According to my findings a cop could take my firearm, have mke in court, but i would win and be free if i were carrying without a permit,

 

 

 

• “All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void.” - Maybury vs. Madison, US, 1803
  Gun ownership is not a state issue so they have no jurisdiction.

 

• Each state is its own sovereign, meaning it can have its own constitution, government, etc. States can make their own laws, as long as they aren't unconstitutional.

 

• The United States Constitution provides for a federal government that is superior to state governments with regard to its enumerated powers. These powers include the authority to govern international affairs, the currency and national defense. After the American Civil War, the Fourteenth Amendment applied the Constitution's Bill of Rights to state governments. Issues that arise under any legislation passed by Congress, an Executive Order of the President, or a decision of federal courts pursuant to the Constitution are governed by federal law.
  
  The Supreme Court makes final decisions regarding all federal laws. United States federal laws are codified in the United States Code.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_law
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_…
  The law of the United States consists of many levels[1] of codified and uncodified forms of law, of which the most important is the United States Constitution, the foundation of the federal government of the United States. The Constitution sets out the boundaries of federal law, which consists of constitutional acts of Congress, constitutional treaties ratified by Congress, constitutional regulations promulgated by the executive branch, and case law originating from the federal judiciary.
  
  The Constitution and federal law are the supreme law of the land, thus preempting conflicting state and territorial laws in the fifty U.S. states and in the territories.[2] However, the scope of federal preemption is limited, because the scope of federal power is itself rather limited. In the unique dual-sovereign system of American federalism (actually tripartite[3] when one includes Indian reservations), states are the plenary sovereigns, while the federal sovereign possesses only the limited supreme authority enumerated in the Constitution.[4] Indeed, states may grant their citizens broader rights than the federal Constitution as long as they do not infringe on any federal constitutional rights.[5][6] Thus, most U.S. law (especially the actual "living law" of contract, tort, criminal, and family law experienced by the majority of citizens on a day-to-day basis) consists primarily of state law, which can and does vary greatly from one state to the next.[7][8]
  
  At both the federal and state levels, the law of the United States was originally largely derived from the common law system of English law, which was in force at the time of the Revolutionary War.[9][10] However, U.S. law has diverged greatly from its English ancestor both in terms of substance and procedure, and has incorporated a number of civil law innovation

[Chucktshoes]

No.

[Oh Shoot]

Well, at worst in TN, you're free to espouse that "right" while serving only 11 months and 29 days in jail and paying $2500.

 

- OS

Edited February 3, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[DWARREN123]

Try it and let us know how it works out for you!

[TMF]

Would love to see some new case law on this.

[Oh Shoot]

Would love to see some new case law on this.

 

If it's gonna happen, will have to be in TN, SCOTUS so far has washed its hands of carry. I imagine if they ever do, they will make it clear that it is a states' right issue, not federal. They might, however insist that all states which issue permits allow carry a "shall issue" rather than a "may issue", which of course in a number of states essentially means "will not issue". But I wouldn't hold my breath on that one either. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few states simply quit issuing permits at all, if so. I suppose they could still deputize the elite or something.

 

Kwik challenged the state constitutionality of the carry law, didn't get very far, 'course that was him.  Matter of fact, he decided to pursue that rather than even attend his appeal hearing with TNDOS to try and get his permit back.

 

FWIW, I agree that under the TN constitution, both the unlawful carry statute and the HCP system are unconstitutional, until and unless the state can prove that either reduce crime.

 

- OS

Edited February 3, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[TMF]

If it's gonna happen, will have to be in TN, SCOTUS so far has washed its hands of carry. I imagine if they ever do, they will make it clear that it is a states' right issue, not federal. They might, however insist that all states which issue permits allow carry a "shall issue" rather than a "may issue", which of course in a number of states essentially means "will not issue". But I wouldn't hold my breath on that one either. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few states simply quit issuing permits at all, if so. I suppose they could still deputize the elite or something.

 

Kwik challenged the state constitutionality of the carry law, didn't get very far, 'course that was him.  Matter of fact, he decided to pursue that rather than even attend his appeal hearing with TNDOS to try and get his permit back.

 

FWIW, I agree that under the TN constitution, both the unlawful carry statute and the HCP system are unconstitutional, until and unless the state can prove that either reduce crime.

 

- OS

 

I was kinda joking.  An individual taking on the State here is going to lose.  Though I believe most of our gun control laws are unconstitutional and do nothing to prevent crime, we aren't going to change that by becoming criminals and engaging in civil disobedience.  Not unless every single gun owner commits to such a thing, which won't happen because folks like me have a job, wife and children and aren't going to risk the future of any of those by trying to work outside of the system.  Best we can do is write our elected leaders and donate to lobbying groups.  Of course, if someone has the funds to do so, by all means, challenge the system and see if it works out. 

[DaveTN]

As someone that tried it, I can assure you that all you will do is have a bunch of legal bills and possibly a criminal conviction. It’s been decided. If you want to argue Constitutionality; you are too late to the party. Unlike the state I was in, you are in a state that is willing to sell you the privilege; buy it and move on.

[daddyo]

Good luck with that.

[swim615]

I would just get my HCP and not have to worry about it.

[10-Ring]

Unless you have a bunch of extra time on your hands, plenty of money for lawyers, and possibly a good connection with the good ole boy network I wouldn't try it. You are just asking for trouble. 

[1gewehr]

Not in TN.  The TN State Constitution says that the Legislature has the power to regulate the wearing of arms.  If you want to carry a handgun in any manner in TN, you will need the permit.

[Guest CigarGuy]

You don't have to file your income tax, either....... ;)

Edited February 3, 2013 by CigarGuy

[redstategunnut]

I'd leave the lawyering to the lawyers. Meanwhile, if you want to carry, get a permit. 

[RobertNashville]

I have files of paperwork and printed documents that state that constitutional law supersedes state and local law. If that is a fact , I can leaglly carry a loaded handgun without a permit. As the second ammendment states a state can not infringe upon the constituition and supersee its writings and laws. According to my findings a cop could take my firearm, have mke in court, but i would win and be free if i were carrying without a permit...

I don't disagree with your premise but we ("we" in the collective sense), have allowed the government at all levels to ignore the Constitution when it comes to the second amendment.  It's been going on for decades and all of us have some of that guilt on our hands.

 

Any attempt to suddenly revert to what the Constitution says we already have as a right will only bring pain and misery down on the person who does it.

 

The approach that will work is to keep pushing back against further infringement and to remove infringements that already exist and we do that in a variety of ways including supporting organizations like the NRA, USCCA, GOA, etc. and by being an ambassador to our friends and neighbors who either don't share our views or have no strong opinion on the matter at all.

[JayC]

The correct target via the court system is TICS, not carry...  chip away at the ability of the legislature to regulate firearms altogether...  then use those wins to build case law to support removing some of the restrictions on carry.

 

TICS is completely indefensible under the state constitution and if found unconstitutional would result in 10's if not 100's of millions of dollars being returned to the citizens of the state from this unlawful tax.

 

Next on the hit list would be the ammo tax, which is also likely unconstitutional under the state constitution, and again would result in lots of money being paid back to the law abiding citizens of this state, at least 100 million if not a lot more.

 

As for the OP, don't do it, the permit situation is a headache but the $300-500ish cost for most people to take the class is much less than a single effort to defend yourself from immoral laws currently on the books from the state legislature...  Take the excess money and donate it to a group which will fight the legislature to further relax our poorly written gun laws... and go bug the ever living crap out of your legislators about their anti-2nd amendment laws.

 

I was kinda joking.  An individual taking on the State here is going to lose.  Though I believe most of our gun control laws are unconstitutional and do nothing to prevent crime, we aren't going to change that by becoming criminals and engaging in civil disobedience.  Not unless every single gun owner commits to such a thing, which won't happen because folks like me have a job, wife and children and aren't going to risk the future of any of those by trying to work outside of the system.  Best we can do is write our elected leaders and donate to lobbying groups.  Of course, if someone has the funds to do so, by all means, challenge the system and see if it works out. 

 

[Guest 270win]

You'll probably pay a fine of several hundred dollars and have to petition the court to get your gun back.  You won't go to prison for carrying in public without a permit because it is not a felony.  You probably would not do any jail time if you have a clean record, but it will cost you some money if you get caught AND convicted.

[redstategunnut]

Here's what will happen:

 

If you are caught, you might be arrested or you might be cited into court. If you are arrested, you will probably want to bond out, which will either tie up your money or cost you 10% of the face amount of the bond for a bondsman to post it. Then you'll go to court, at least once. The weapon will be forfeited. Guarantee that, so I'd recommend that you not test my prediction with an expensive gun.

 

If you are lucky, you will face only expungeable probation, but that depends if you have a record already. If you can't get the expungeable probation, you'll have a weapons conviction for life. Either way, you're looking at court costs of hundreds of dollars and probation fees on top of that. Absent the expungement, likely you will be unable to purchase weapons or get a permit in the future, and it will be a problem on background checks for jobs, housing, credit, etc. 

 

Get a permit. 

[gjohnsoniv]

Have fun is all I'm going to say. 

[Guest Southern Christian Armed]

I do appreciate all the response. I am just so frustrated with all the infringement that I was seeking a way to carry under my constitutional right and not have to bow down. I have the money and time to get a permit, but I shouldnt have to. I feel that getting one is bowing down, and taking it like they want you too. I just sought the satisfaction of if it ever arose, I could win and restore some civility to our deminished rights. Oh well. Do I just shrug and fall victim to the weight of the overwhelming decrease in our Constitutional rights or do I proceed with my course???? I just choose not to give up as easy as most. The responses that said good luck and just get your permit are the exact reason we are losing our rights. Just my opinion and 1 cents worth.....

[Chucktshoes]

I understand your frustration and in principle agree with you. That being said, there are smart ways and less than smart ways to work to change what you see as wrong. Carrying without a permit and planning to fight it in court falls into the category of "less than smart". The odds of a judge or jury finding in your favor are slim, sadly enough. The smart way to change things is for us to continue to press our legislature to enact constitutional carry. Edited February 5, 2013 by Chucktshoes

[JohnC]

Isn't one of our reps trying to get constitutional carry done in TN? Could have sworn I heard them say that at the last gun rally.

[JayC]

I am in complete agreement about us loosing our rights, but it's happening because people don't speak out, and work both the court and legislative systems to push back on poorly written or out and out bad laws.

 

You can be a much more effective in restoring God given rights at this time as a non-convicted person than in court after being arrested.  You'll notice that the vast majority of 'good' case law comes from citizens who have a completely clean criminal record.

 

So, I'm going to ask, have you personally sat down with your legislators and talked to them face to face about your concerns with current state law and asked them how they justify it with both the state and federal constitutions?  Do you call them often enough that they know your number on their caller id?

 

Start a pro-gun fund to make well funded attempts at expanding case law in the state court system against stupid and clearly unconstitutional laws?

 

You're right sitting on your couch and watching Monday night football won't stop the march of the tyranny we live with today...  You have to do something about it, but for right now the answer is to work the system...  There very well be a time in the not too distance future where working within the system will no longer be an option, and pro-God given rights supports should be taking advantage of this time to try and fight that possible future off.

 

I do appreciate all the response. I am just so frustrated with all the infringement that I was seeking a way to carry under my constitutional right and not have to bow down. I have the money and time to get a permit, but I shouldnt have to. I feel that getting one is bowing down, and taking it like they want you too. I just sought the satisfaction of if it ever arose, I could win and restore some civility to our deminished rights. Oh well. Do I just shrug and fall victim to the weight of the overwhelming decrease in our Constitutional rights or do I proceed with my course???? I just choose not to give up as easy as most. The responses that said good luck and just get your permit are the exact reason we are losing our rights. Just my opinion and 1 cents worth.....

 

[battleop]

I would just get my HCP and not have to worry about it.

 

Yea,   It's cheaper than an hour of a lawyer's time that the OP is going to need.

[redstategunnut]

OP:

 

Here's the last free advice a lawyer with twenty years of criminal law experience who carries a gun every day is going to give you:

 

Get a permit.