Machine gun fire from helicopters over Miami

[Guest CCI]

Don't waste your time. Some people want to act on emotion instead of logic, kind of like libs.

Emotion, possibly! I would rather see them practice( flying, landing, hovering) some where else , that doesn't endanger the people in the area!

[TMF]

[quote name="carter" post="901192" timestamp="1359669359"]i would say OMFG and suit up cause the TERD HAS OFFICIALLY HIT THE FAN!... I doubt they try those shenanigans around here lol would be a black hawk down... how stupid is the military... [/quote] I've done stuff similar to this in TN before. Never an issue. The military isn't "stupid". In fact, there are more college degrees per capita in the Armed Forces than the general population. We have an all volunteer force in the most advanced military in the world. I've heard somewhere that in order to have the most highly trained military on the planet, you actually have to conduct training. I know that can be an extreme concept for civilians to understand, and that's why you are civilians. If you were Service Members or Veterans the concept of realistic training wouldn't be such a revolutionary concept to grasp.

[JayC]

I understand the realistic need for training...  I've even volunteered at a couple of different MOUT sites with some very realistic training.

 

But, exactly what is the military training for here?  It's clear that the training here is for tier 1 operators and air crews.  The 'cover story' is they are training for a deployment in the news media.

 

Where exactly are they deploying to that they need to use attack helo's and fast rope into high rise buildings?  What theater of operation today is the military operating in today where they need that level of training.  And they're doing it in a bunch of different cities over the last 3 to 4 years?

 

If they're training for a deployment exactly why are they also training with the local police departments?  It's clear from news reports that the local police are not just providing security for these activities, but taking part in the training.  Why do we need tier 1 operators training our civilian police departments in military tactics and combined operations?

 

I see a valid need for the military to get the training that it needs to conduct it's mission, and tier 1 operators probably do need access to locations not routinely found at regular training sites...  But, the military isn't supposed to 'operate' inside the US except in times of war, and I'm not aware of any 1st world country we're operating in where a Tier 1 operator needs practice on fast roping into high rise buildings.

 

What exactly is the government/military planning for?  And why the poorly crafted cover story that doesn't hold up?  

 

I don't agree with the assessment that the military shouldn't be able to train outside of military installations, but I do think the military should not be training anywhere for operating within the borders of the US, and should not be training civilian police officers in military tactics.

 

I've done stuff similar to this in TN before. Never an issue. The military isn't "stupid". In fact, there are more college degrees per capita in the Armed Forces than the general population. We have an all volunteer force in the most advanced military in the world. I've heard somewhere that in order to have the most highly trained military on the planet, you actually have to conduct training. I know that can be an extreme concept for civilians to understand, and that's why you are civilians. If you were Service Members or Veterans the concept of realistic training wouldn't be such a revolutionary concept to grasp.

 

 

[2.ooohhh]

What exactly is the government/military planning for?  And why the poorly crafted cover story that doesn't hold up?  

 

If I had to guess ATM it would be for possible future actions in North Korea, Pyongyang's skyline comes to mind.

[TMF]

Where exactly are they deploying to that they need to use attack helo's and fast rope into high rise buildings? What theater of operation today is the military operating in today where they need that level of training. And they're doing it in a bunch of different cities over the last 3 to 4 years?

If they're training for a deployment exactly why are they also training with the local police departments? It's clear from news reports that the local police are not just providing security for these activities, but taking part in the training. Why do we need tier 1 operators training our civilian police departments in military tactics and combined operations?

What the hell difference does it make whether or not our current theatre had high rise buildings? It would be stupid to only train to the abilities necessary for the next deployment. That kinda mindset would have had us preparing for jungle warfare in the years leading up to 9/11. Goog thing someone had thought about desert training.

On a side note there are plenty high structures in Afghanistan. In fact, when I was in Kabul last year one of the HR units in country responded to a building take over by roping on the rooftop to retake it and kill the combatants.

And who says they're training the police officers? I've done at least a half dozen joint training events with local, state and federal law enforcement from one coast to the next, and in every operation the LEAs were playing OPFOR. It gave them an opportunity to train on their tasks while it gave us an OPFOR which simulated a hostile indigenous police force. Don't let your assumptions run wild and see things that aren't there. This is normal and happens all the time, and will continue to happen no matter who is in the White House or how many Alex Jones subscribers there are. Edited February 1, 2013 by TMF

[mcurrier]

BLACK HELICOPTERS? ARMY SAYS DON'T WORRY

http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/black-helicopters-army-says-dont-worry/

[Guest ThePunisher]

Good to know these helicopters have a 100% safety rate and never ever crash. Of course if there were to be an accident and someone gets killed and their property destroyed, I'm sure the good ole government will really reimburse a fair price on lives and property. And what is a price tag of someone's life to the government?

[Guest carter]

I've done stuff similar to this in TN before. Never an issue. The military isn't "stupid". In fact, there are more college degrees per capita in the Armed Forces than the general population. We have an all volunteer force in the most advanced military in the world. I've heard somewhere that in order to have the most highly trained military on the planet, you actually have to conduct training. I know that can be an extreme concept for civilians to understand, and that's why you are civilians. If you were Service Members or Veterans the concept of realistic training wouldn't be such a revolutionary concept to grasp.

yes I am actually a former service member... and no I do not think the military needs to be running drills in rush hour traffic on a busy freeway without the public's knowledge of it going on in this day and age... we still run drills with Smyrna but it is controlled... not just flying around and shooting blanks... and people flipping out... I do understand the concept of training but in a controlled environment... its like a group of air softers dressed up in kit and running a scenario in a public park... not very practical and lacks common since ... hints the 200 million dollar mock city in 29 palms... book smarts doesn't have any relation to good common since

Edited February 1, 2013 by carter

[c.a.willard]

The general public was notified well in advance, the local government and police department approved the training, and the 160th pilots are some of if not the best helicopter pilots in the world.  The risk to public safety was absolutely minimal, probably less than a news or a private helicopter flying over.  Somethings you cant train on in any mock city in existance and sometimes you just need to go to someplace new to change it up.   If anyone has a problem with the military training in civilian populations they should take it up with the elected officials of that area that approved it. 

[TMF]

yes I am actually a former service member... and no I do not think the military needs to be running drills in rush hour traffic on a busy freeway without the public's knowledge of it going on in this day and age... we still run drills with Smyrna but it is controlled... not just flying around and shooting blanks... and people flipping out... I do understand the concept of training but in a controlled environment... its like a group of air softers dressed up in kit and running a scenario in a public park... not very practical and lacks common since ... hints the 200 million dollar mock city in 29 palms... book smarts doesn't have any relation to good common since

Somehow I think the men who run and operate within the tier one units which took part in this exercise are not only smarter than most, but also have a great degree of common sense. I'm not sure what echelon you found yourself at within the armed forces, but you have ZERO concept of unit training plans if your answer to everything is 29 palms out in California, simply because we paid a lot of money for it. Besides, the word was put out to the public that this scenario was taking place. Even the news was there live when all this was going on. If a few people don't keep up with the news, oh well. Too bad I guess. Somehow these things happen all the time and nothing significant happens other than a bunch of people with no knowledge of how these things work bitching about it on the Internet. Edited February 2, 2013 by TMF

[Paletiger13]

If anyone doesn't think governments or even our own government don't have nefarious motivations, you need not look any further than Fast and Furious, and the many tramplings of our Constitution by this current administration. I'm so glad many people here are just so comfortable with what's been going on in our country the last few years reducing our liberties and freedoms. Apathy is why we won't be having 2nd A rights too much longer or 1st A rights, or even any Constitutional rights at all.

I 100% agree!!!

[Guest carter]

Somehow I think the men who run and operate within the tier one units which took part in this exercise are not only smarter than most, but also have a great degree of common sense. I'm not sure what echelon you found yourself at within the armed forces, but you have ZERO concept of unit training plans if your answer to everything is 29 palms out in California, simply because we paid a lot of money for it. Besides, the word was put out to the public that this scenario was taking place. Even the news was there live when all this was going on. If a few people don't keep up with the news, oh well. Too bad I guess. Somehow these things happen all the time and nothing significant happens other than a bunch of people with no knowledge of how these things work bitching about it on the Internet.

the news headline when they spoke where like oh but its an excersise acting like they didn't lknow what was happening and just found out ,  and do not tell me I have zero consept of training with out knowing me from adam... thats not very good common since now is it... assumptions... my answer is it should be in a controlled environment... and I'm sticking to it... what if one of those Hughes 500's clipped a power line and came crashing into a resturant filled with people... you expect the patrons to just saw oh well... not me... thats why i say training in a public venue like that is not good common since... what about people not from the area and have no clue about the training exercises... oh and by the way i was 2IBN2MEF MOS-0231 in the Marine Corp stationed at Camp Lejeune in Jacksonville,NC

Edited February 2, 2013 by carter

[Daniel]

Good to know these helicopters have a 100% safety rate and never ever crash. Of course if there were to be an accident and someone gets killed and their property destroyed, I'm sure the good ole government will really reimburse a fair price on lives and property. And what is a price tag of someone's life to the government?

Couple of goats. At least that is the going rate in Afghanistan.

[c.a.willard]

the news headline when they spoke where like oh but its an excersise acting like they didn't lknow what was happening and just found out ,  and do not tell me I have zero consept of training with out knowing me from adam... thats not very good common since now is it... assumptions... my answer is it should be in a controlled environment... and I'm sticking to it... what if one of those Hughes 500's clipped a power line and came crashing into a resturant filled with people... you expect the patrons to just saw oh well... not me... thats why i say training in a public venue like that is not good common since... what about people not from the area and have no clue about the training exercises... oh and by the way i was 2IBN2MEF MOS-0231 in the Marine Corp stationed at Camp Lejeune in Jacksonville,NC

An area with restricted accesss being controlled by the local police department is a controlled training enviornment.  It also provides local agencies the ability to conduct simultanious training of their critical tasks without having to assume the total cost of the training.  Its a win win.   what part of the city approved this are people not getting.  Obviously the local government thought that there was enough benifits to outweight the absolutely minimal risk involved.   Should no pilots fly over populated cities for fear of clipping a powerline and crashing into a restaraunt.  It makes plenty of sense to train in high rise buildings and large urban centers.  If your job is to sit in a SCIF all day then it is probably not necessary.  If your job is to on moments notice go to any place in the world with minimal support and conduct direct action missions then it makes sense

[TMF]

the news headline when they spoke where like oh but its an excersise acting like they didn't lknow what was happening and just found out ,  and do not tell me I have zero consept of training with out knowing me from adam... thats not very good common since now is it... assumptions... my answer is it should be in a controlled environment... and I'm sticking to it... what if one of those Hughes 500's clipped a power line and came crashing into a resturant filled with people... you expect the patrons to just saw oh well... not me... thats why i say training in a public venue like that is not good common since... what about people not from the area and have no clue about the training exercises... oh and by the way i was 2IBN2MEF MOS-0231 in the Marine Corp stationed at Camp Lejeune in Jacksonville,NC

Sorry, you misspelled "common sense" twice and do not understand basic punctuation or capitalization. It is difficult to take anyone seriously on a subject referencing knowledge and intelligence when we can't master 3rd grade level stuff.

[Guest carter]

Sorry, you misspelled "common sense" twice and do not understand basic punctuation or capitalization. It is difficult to take anyone seriously on a subject referencing knowledge and intelligence when we can't master 3rd grade level stuff.

 

nice easy out, but I don't think students are taught in third grad the difference between cents since and sense...I'm not trying to write a book here or a paper for English class ...just getting my point across 

[TMF]

nice easy out, but I don't think students are taught in third grad the difference between cents since and sense...I'm not trying to write a book here or a paper for English class ...just getting my point across 

 

Not sure what you mean by "easy out".  My attempt to illustrate that I'm not speaking with someone who is intelligent on the subject by pointing out a lack of mastery in very basic English skills seemed relevant; after all, half of being smart is knowing what you're dumb at.  I'm not dumb on this subject.  I realize there is no way to get past my observation without being offended, and for that I am sorry.

 

No, they most likely do not teach the difference between "cents", "since" and "sense" in the 3rd grade.  I'd say it's safe to assume they've already addressed that before then.  I don't think I went to an advanced elementary school, but I already knew that by that age.  I have no reason to doubt your claims of service, but I do have a hard time believing that someone who worked as an intelligence analyst, as you said, would be able to create products for distribution to organizations outside his S2 shop if he can't master elementary level English.  Just another observation, unintended to be insulting, but relevant to the subject I think.  There was nothing wrong with the training that was conducted.  It was not outside the norm of what has gone on for decades.  The only difference is now people have YouTube to put their unfiltered video for the tin foil hats of the world to see and use as evidence that they're not crazy.  The government really is out to get them. 

[Guest carter]

Not sure what you mean by "easy out".  My attempt to illustrate that I'm not speaking with someone who is intelligent on the subject by pointing out a lack of mastery in very basic English skills seemed relevant; after all, half of being smart is knowing what you're dumb at.  I'm not dumb on this subject.  I realize there is no way to get past my observation without being offended, and for that I am sorry.

 

No, they most likely do not teach the difference between "cents", "since" and "sense" in the 3rd grade.  I'd say it's safe to assume they've already addressed that before then.  I don't think I went to an advanced elementary school, but I already knew that by that age.  I have no reason to doubt your claims of service, but I do have a hard time believing that someone who worked as an intelligence analyst, as you said, would be able to create products for distribution to organizations outside his S2 shop if he can't master elementary level English.  Just another observation, unintended to be insulting, but relevant to the subject I think.  There was nothing wrong with the training that was conducted.  It was not outside the norm of what has gone on for decades.  The only difference is now people have YouTube to put their unfiltered video for the tin foil hats of the world to see and use as evidence that they're not crazy.  The government really is out to get them. 

 

i just find it amusing you have to attack someone personally to try and get your point across. My punctuation and grammar has nothing to do with the subject in this conversation. Just shows me your trying to find a third leg to stand on and this is your way of accomplishing this. Assuming is not factual, you did go through third grade didn't you? You are all knowing, so if anyone should know it would be you, right?

 

1. GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM -- the tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Sociopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A sociopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example.

2. GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH -- a grossly inflated view of one's abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Sociopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.

3. NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM -- an excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Sociopaths often have low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.

5. CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS- the use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one's victims.

6. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT -- a lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, coldhearted, and un empathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one's victims.

7. SHALLOW AFFECT -- emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.

8. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY -- a lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.

9. PARASITIC LIFESTYLE -- an intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.

10. POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS -- expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.

12. EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS -- a variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.

13. LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS -- an inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.

14. IMPULSIVITY -- the occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.

16. FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS -- a failure to accept responsibility for one's actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.

Edited February 4, 2013 by carter

[c.a.willard]

So what was the point of that last post?  Were you trying to insinuate that someone is a sociopath? 

 

Maybe we can get off the topic of trying to insult others or comparing our intelligence and get back to the discussion and the merrits of each persons views.  TMF, Myself and many others maintain that in order to effectively train tier one units must go outside the normal channels.  This provides them with the most realistic trainig that they can get and prepares whem for their global mission. 

 

You seem to take issue that it is not a controlled enviornment and poses an undue risk to civilian wellbeing.  My natural argument to that would again be that the local agencies and governments signed off on it, so obviously they did not see a significant risk there.  Additionally anyone who has planned training will tell you risk reduction and midigation are a a major part of the training plan.

 

It has also been argued that there are other areas these units could have trained.  This is only partially true those large dedicated training areas are usually reserved by units up to a year out and therefore not necessarily available for a rapid deploying unit to take advantage of.  Additionally those areas do not have true high rise buildings and the complications that come along with them. Finally that unit may have already trained in those areas so many times that it was beleived they had maximised the training available from that area and had to move on to new training grounds to change it up.

 

Others beleive that the US military has no business training in US cities, to which i would counter that the US military has a standing mandate to conduct defensive operations for this nation.  Depriving them of the ability to train in cities that would likely be targets if any type of enemy attack or invasion were ot happen would be depriving them of the homefield advantage.

[Guest carter]

So what was the point of that last post?  Were you trying to insinuate that someone is a sociopath? 

 

Maybe we can get off the topic of trying to insult others or comparing our intelligence and get back to the discussion and the merrits of each persons views.  TMF, Myself and many others maintain that in order to effectively train tier one units must go outside the normal channels.  This provides them with the most realistic trainig that they can get and prepares whem for their global mission. 

 

You seem to take issue that it is not a controlled enviornment and poses an undue risk to civilian wellbeing.  My natural argument to that would again be that the local agencies and governments signed off on it, so obviously they did not see a significant risk there.  Additionally anyone who has planned training will tell you risk reduction and midigation are a a major part of the training plan.

 

It has also been argued that there are other areas these units could have trained.  This is only partially true those large dedicated training areas are usually reserved by units up to a year out and therefore not necessarily available for a rapid deploying unit to take advantage of.  Additionally those areas do not have true high rise buildings and the complications that come along with them. Finally that unit may have already trained in those areas so many times that it was beleived they had maximised the training available from that area and had to move on to new training grounds to change it up.

 

Others beleive that the US military has no business training in US cities, to which i would counter that the US military has a standing mandate to conduct defensive operations for this nation.  Depriving them of the ability to train in cities that would likely be targets if any type of enemy attack or invasion were ot happen would be depriving them of the homefield advantage.

 

That was my point to begin with. Then someone had to go off on a tangent  about my grammar, which ensued this whole thing to get off topic. I expressed my opinion and evidently someone was offended by that, then they took it to a personal level insulting me.

 

Sorry if i offended anyone's sensibilities...  

 

I'm merely stating  i don't agree our standing military running drills while shooting non lethal blanks in a public setting like that... and compared that to a group of non military guys going out training in a public setting the same way and the way that would look for people unaware of what was going on. I guess it would be OK for the regular civilian to use a public venue to train in? 

Edited February 5, 2013 by carter

[c.a.willard]

Carter  I dont mind a regular civilian using a public venue to train in, if they go to the local government and police and get prior approval for the training and ensure that appropriate safety measures are in place.  Thats the key peice of the argument that people seem to be overlooking.  The local authorities supported this training excersize.  They support it because it is mutually benificial. 

[Guest carter]

Carter  I dont mind a regular civilian using a public venue to train in, if they go to the local government and police and get prior approval for the training and ensure that appropriate safety measures are in place.  Thats the key peice of the argument that people seem to be overlooking.  The local authorities supported this training excersize.  They support it because it is mutually benificial. 

 

I can see that to a point... I don't see where our military is going to be operating that has super high rise buildings anytime soon though...i have no idea when that operation even took place... Might of been years ago... Sometimes we are included in training exercises with 68W-F2 and F3's... its all controlled though...no firing of machine guns in public... basically hover, land, drop off patient and leave...come back hover... land pick patient up and leave again... night and day...have no issues with that... the kicker to me is the machine gun fire...

[c.a.willard]

Thats the problem with assumming,  theres no way from the sidelines we can know where these guys next mission will be.  Its speculation as to what they were firing as well, be it blanks or nuematic guns.  Granted it is for the most part informed speculation but speculation none the less.  What is a known is that these guys require highly specialized training, that the local government approved this training, that the local police supported this training and that someone fairly high up in JSOC/DOD approved the operation.  We also know that no one was hurt during the training and for all my searching i cant find anything confirming blanks were fired.  If they were they were apparently done in a way that brass wasnt falling near citizens in the area or if any did fall and was recovered it wasnt reported. 

[TMF]

 
1. GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM -- the tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Sociopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A sociopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example.
2. GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH -- a grossly inflated view of one's abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Sociopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.
3. NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM -- an excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Sociopaths often have low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.
5. CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS- the use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one's victims.
6. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT -- a lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, coldhearted, and un empathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one's victims.
7. SHALLOW AFFECT -- emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.
8. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY -- a lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.
9. PARASITIC LIFESTYLE -- an intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.
10. POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS -- expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.
12. EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS -- a variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.
13. LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS -- an inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.
14. IMPULSIVITY -- the occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.
16. FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS -- a failure to accept responsibility for one's actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.

I am absolutely flattered.

[billyscott]

I have no military experience but I understand the importance of training exercises. 

As the man on the ground, the citizen, I would have to say that if I heard guns firing and military helicopters flying above my house I would step into defense mode immediately. And I would be extremely pizz't off when I found out it was a training exercise that I wasn't informed of. 

Just my two sense