Machine gun fire from helicopters over Miami

[Guest 556or762]

So I assume you would be ok with the government spending the millions if not billions of dollars it would cost to build a Mount site of the needed size to conduct the needed training. Or would you prefer that these military members don't receive the proper training and come home in body bags?

They have several, twenty nine palms, bragg, etc., etc. Hell twenty nine palms has a freakin city, and LAPD along with state, fed law enforcement and the military actually use an abandoned town.

[Mr. Brooks]

They have several, twenty nine palms, bragg, etc., etc. Hell twenty nine palms has a freakin city, and LAPD along with state, fed law enforcement and the military actually use an abandoned town.

Twenty nine palms and Fort Bragg are not mount sites. Not to mention not one of the sites you mentioned is anywhere near the size of a major city with tall buildings (skyscrapers). You are comparing a tiny mount village with a major urban area, apples and oranges. It is simply not feasable to build a mount site of that magnitude.

[Guest 556or762]

Do you really think one is needed? There is such thing as too much room, if you tried to use an entire city for training, taking the time to actually train it would take months if not years to knock down all those doors and to recon all those buildings, etc.  I have been thru a training site that had several different types of buildings all with different profiles, floorplans, entry/exit strategies and after so many its just repitition, I agree there needs to be training but I think there is a point at which it becomes too similar to that last house, or this is just like that building yesterday, and that leads to complacency and complacency kills, it hurts your head when you stand up under the armored door of a HET not wearing your Kevlar because "youve done it a hundred times" too, still got the scar!

[Mr. Brooks]

Do you really think one is needed? There is such thing as too much room, if you tried to use an entire city for training, taking the time to actually train it would take months if not years to knock down all those doors and to recon all those buildings, etc. I have been thru a training site that had several different types of buildings all with different profiles, floorplans, entry/exit strategies and after so many its just repitition, I agree there needs to be training but I think there is a point at which it becomes too similar to that last house, or this is just like that building yesterday, and that leads to complacency and complacency kills, it hurts your head when you stand up under the armored door of a HET not wearing your Kevlar because "youve done it a hundred times" too, still got the scar!

Of course I don't think they need to built a mount site of that size, they can just use existing urban areas to train in. ;)

You do realize they are not training to take down the whole city, right? Taking down a target area in a built up urban area is very different from taking down a target in a rural area. Realistic training means that the approach and departure from the target area need to be as realistic as possible, not just the target itself. (Read up on the way wind moves around large buildings) Not to mention I don't know of any mount sites with a metro rail, which was one of the reported targets.

Sorry 'bout your head. Betcha never made that mistake again.

[JayC]

The helo that is firing is an AH-6 probably a M variant flown by the 1st Battalion of the 160th out of Fort Campbell, you can see weapons pods, not bench seats on the run by the little birds in the video.  Which would separate them from MH-6's, and to my knowledge only the 160th flies AH-6's in the US military.

 

My *guess* is the reports are from a GAU-19/B mounted on the inside of the LAU-68D/A rocket pods you can barely make out in the video.  I've never heard a GAU-19/B fire before, but reportedly it has a much lower rate of fire from the GAU-19/A and only 24 of them have been sold to the US Army.

 

I've never seen a picture of it, but reportedly a version of the M230 can be mounted to AH-6's as well, and it would also have a low rate of fire.

 

It's clear the reports are coming from the helo's and they're are AH-6's not MH-6's.

 

I assumed that the fire was coming from OPFOR on a roof top or something. There weren't any personnel on the side of those little birds when that automatic fire was going, and if they were running blanks through their mini-guns it wouldn't sound like that.

Edit: watching the video again it sounds like a pneumatic gun since it had such a slow rate of fire.. It's not an M4 with blanks and it sure isn't a 240, even at the slowest rate of fire. They probably had a pneumatic gun set up on top of that parking garage to simulate ground fire or something.

 

 

[Daniel]

Then build a facade town in the barren desert, and do it there!

 

Ft Irwin CA.

[JayC]

Why do AH-6 attack helo's need to practice making runs in a large urban environment like Miami, or Dallas. Where exactly are they training to deploy to that has high rise office buildings and apartments?

 

There is an argument to be made about soldiers training for hostage rescue in high rises, and practice doing insertions onto high rise buildings... but that doesn't jive with the press release that they are training for an upcoming deployment, what is the tallest building in Afghanistan, 5 or 6 stories?  They have access to buildings that tall at MOUT sites around the country.

 

So I assume you would be ok with the government spending the millions if not billions of dollars it would cost to build a Mount site of the needed size to conduct the needed training. Or would you prefer that these military members don't receive the proper training and come home in body bags?

 

 

[Daniel]

MOUT. Military Operations in Urban Terrain. Not mount. Sry. Drives me nuts.

[Mr. Brooks]

Meh, I'm done. This will be forgotten about in a couple of days. Until the next time they do it.

[MattCary]

There is a great article on sofrep.com describing what you see in the video.

[TMF]

The helo that is firing is an AH-6 probably a M variant flown by the 1st Battalion of the 160th out of Fort Campbell, you can see weapons pods, not bench seats on the run by the little birds in the video. Which would separate them from MH-6's, and to my knowledge only the 160th flies AH-6's in the US military.

My *guess* is the reports are from a GAU-19/B mounted on the inside of the LAU-68D/A rocket pods you can barely make out in the video. I've never heard a GAU-19/B fire before, but reportedly it has a much lower rate of fire from the GAU-19/A and only 24 of them have been sold to the US Army.

I've never seen a picture of it, but reportedly a version of the M230 can be mounted to AH-6's as well, and it would also have a low rate of fire.

It's clear the reports are coming from the helo's and they're are AH-6's not MH-6's.

No way was that a GAU-19; the rate of fire you hear is no more than 400 rpm which is far to low to be anything we have; even an M2 firing blanks will cycle faster than that. Not to mention it would be dropping .50 brass in the parking lot and on the highway as they made the run which would cause all kinds of damage to vehicles and could potentially injure pedestrians on the ground. That would not make it through any approval process.

Not to say that it isn't possible, but I've only seen GAU-19s mounted on Kiowas. I've never seen a little bird with them.

Also, how can you tell it isn't coming from the ground? Sounds to me like it could easily come from the ground. Besides that, those little birds aren't positioned for a gun run anyway. It is one directly behind the other flying straight and level. Edited January 30, 2013 by TMF

[nightrunner]

Brass catchers

[Daniel]

Not on a helo. 

[Daniel]

There is a great article on sofrep.com describing what you see in the video.

http://sofrep.com/16631/sof-training-excercise-outside-houston/

Also a link to the Chicago training event. Just think if the news covered Robin Sage. We would have a post regarding the Jihadists from the People's Republic of Pineland.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Daniel

[Guest CCI]

Sure thing, should we ship the entire miami police department out there to.    Or better question where does the money come from to build it, and staff it.    It's cheaper and more effective to train in actual cities.

 

 

Do you have any concept of how much money it would cost to build a replica urban skyline?

A facade, of plywood, and two by fours, "cheap"! Plus, then they could use live ammo!

 

I think it's foolish and dangerous, to perform maneuvers, over and inside a city like this! Go some where else, not over a populated  city!

[JayC]

A regular GAU-19/A is variable between 1000 and 2000 rpm's, the GAU-19/B is supposed to be a much slower shooting weapon, down to below 500 rpm, the US military only owns 24 of these models.

 

As for GAU-19's being mounted on AH-6's here are 2 different open sourced pictures:

 

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTZArgCelvVSzuAw6s2yPKvLMX1xabTk_EG9jECAe52HK1VYoak

 

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o10/noshpatu/AH6J-33.jpg

 

AH-6M's can also be fitted with gun pods that are slewed by the co-pilot, so either a slow firing GAU or M230 could be used from level flight to hit targets on the ground in these configurations.  Although it's rare to find any MELB pictures other than the Xray demonstrators.

 

I've rewatched the video several times, and to my poor ears it sounds as if the reports have a doppler effect to them, since the camera is standing still that would mean the reports are coming from a moving platform.  But, they could be coming from something else, but I'll show you a video below where they're seen using M134 miniguns over public buildings in Miami...  They appear to be over a empty parking lot that is blocked off by police cars right as the reports are heard, maybe they had a secure zone for brass to fall?

 

Either way it's clear from the video that the helo's are not MH-6 but AH-6 variants from the lack of a full bench seat on them.  While the fire could be coming from another source, 

 

But, here are some more videos from training in Miami:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1BhRNfY1lo

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEK--xJAS7U

 

You'll notice in the first video they are fast roping in a unit onto the top of a high rise, and you can clearly hear M134's opening up, as well as some type of exploding munition coming from or near the helo out over the city - this video is from earlier training in Miami also with what appears to be 160th aircraft.

 

The second video is the 720p original footage (which was in the OP's youtube video) showing two MH-6's flying across the screen, then two MH-60L DAP Blackhawks followed on by two AH-6's (on screen when the reports start).  You can clearly see the differences between the first 2 little birds having bench seats and nothing hanging below, vs the second 2...  This would also make sense that transport or assault helo's would exfil first and the attack helos would be the last out.

 

Either way, without a doubt this is the 1st Battalion, 160th SOAR out of Fort Campbell, as they are the only unit in the military to fly MH-6M's and MH-60L DAP's. 

 

No way was that a GAU-19; the rate of fire you hear is no more than 400 rpm which is far to low to be anything we have; even an M2 firing blanks will cycle faster than that. Not to mention it would be dropping .50 brass in the parking lot and on the highway as they made the run which would cause all kinds of damage to vehicles and could potentially injure pedestrians on the ground. That would not make it through any approval process.

Not to say that it isn't possible, but I've only seen GAU-19s mounted on Kiowas. I've never seen a little bird with them.

Also, how can you tell it isn't coming from the ground? Sounds to me like it could easily come from the ground. Besides that, those little birds aren't positioned for a gun run anyway. It is one directly behind the other flying straight and level.

Edited January 30, 2013 by JayC

[TMF]

Yeah, I guess if they cordoned off a safe zone to let brass fall free that would make sense. There are plenty of MH-6s out of Bragg as well. That's where I'm assuming they came from.

[Guest ThePunisher]

If they must train in urban populated areas, then training in and over communist Hollywood might be a good place. Edited January 30, 2013 by ThePunisher

[JayC]

The only MH-6's that are known to be flown by the US Army are from the 1st Battalion, 160th SOAR.  If you've seen them flying in and out of Bragg they're probably those guys.  The military only lists 51 MH-6/AH-6 in it's inventory, which is just enough to cover the 2 companies attached to the 1st Battalion, and the training company.

 

Also, since they're flying MH-60L DAP Blackhawks, and the 1st Battalion, 160th is the only know Army unit flying that air frame, these guys are based out of Fort Campbell.  Also, there are no 160th stationed out of Bragg at this time, but we're all aware that high speed units such as the 160th are flung all over the place on assignments, but these guys call Fort Campbell their home.

 

Or there is another unit that the government doesn't acknowledge doing high speed training in Miami :)

 

Yeah, I guess if they cordoned off a safe zone to let brass fall free that would make sense. There are plenty of MH-6s out of Bragg as well. That's where I'm assuming they came from.

 

 

[TMF]

[quote name="JayC" post="900341" timestamp="1359583551"]The only MH-6's that are known to be flown by the US Army are from the 1st Battalion, 160th SOAR.  If you've seen them flying in and out of Bragg they're probably those guys.  The military only lists 51 MH-6/AH-6 in it's inventory, which is just enough to cover the 2 companies attached to the 1st Battalion, and the training company.   Also, since they're flying MH-60L DAP Blackhawks, and the 1st Battalion, 160th is the only know Army unit flying that air frame, these guys are based out of Fort Campbell.  Also, there are no 160th stationed out of Bragg at this time, but we're all aware that high speed units such as the 160th are flung all over the place on assignments, but these guys call Fort Campbell their home.   Or there is another unit that the government doesn't acknowledge doing high speed training in Miami :)[/quote] The ones I'm aware of at Bragg are sliced from 160th and are permanent party there.

[Guest sculpinyakker]

No way every citizen within earshot was aware of this training before the gunfire began.

 

I, for one, do not like these operations in American cities, on American soil. NOT ONE BIT.

 

I recently learned these training sessions have been occurring since the '90s! I still can hardly believe it.

[Guest carter]

i would say OMFG and suit up cause the TERD HAS OFFICIALLY HIT THE FAN!... I doubt they try those shenanigans around here lol would be a black hawk down... how stupid is the military... If i was strolling down I-24 and a helicopter came at me guns blazing... my lil BMW doesn't take long to get to 120mph baby... I'm OUT! with a g-27 in my hand... and if its summer time... and i have the top down oooooooooooh brother... i would be in fear of my life... enough said

[2.ooohhh]

A facade, of plywood, and two by fours, "cheap"! Plus, then they could use live ammo!

 

I think it's foolish and dangerous, to perform maneuvers, over and inside a city like this! Go some where else, not over a populated  city!

 

You can't practice landing a chopper on a plywood building and expect it to be the same as an urban rooftop. The updrafts and wind currents between the buildings make for a very unique flying enviroment that must be practiced in to become proficient. These highly skilled pilots have to do this all the time to keep the skill up, regardless of whether they are working for the military or an air evac.outfit locally. They frequently do it right outside my office window to the point that I end up wearing my hearing protection more at my office than at the range. From talking to the pilots there is just no other reasonable way to train for this type of flying without being over real buildings that give real control feedback and visibility limitations.

 

 

 

Practicing at Vanderbilt

Edited January 31, 2013 by 2.ooohhh

[Guest carter]

Do you have any concept of how much money it would cost to build a replica urban skyline?

looks like they cost quite a bit...200 million dollars later, so tell me again why the citizens don't have a say so in how my tax dollars are spent... those 29 palms must grow Benjamins

 

 

 

http://my.hsj.org/Schools/Newspaper/tabid/100/view/frontpage/schoolid/642/articleid/318758/newspaperid/618/Troops_to_train_for_Afghan_war_in_realistic_conditions_thanks_to_former_student.aspx

Edited January 31, 2013 by carter

[Mr. Brooks]

You can't practice landing a chopper on a plywood building and expect it to be the same as an urban rooftop. The updrafts and wind currents between the buildings make for a very unique flying enviroment that must be practiced in to become proficient. These highly skilled pilots have to do this all the time to keep the skill up, regardless of whether they are working for the military or an air evac.outfit locally. They frequently do it right outside my office window to the point that I end up wearing my hearing protection more at my office than at the range. From talking to the pilots there is just no other reasonable way to train for this type of flying without being over real buildings that give real control feedback and visibility limitations.



Practicing at Vanderbilt

Don't waste your time. Some people want to act on emotion instead of logic, kind of like libs.