NRA ad "Ill Advised"

[Red Haired Girl]

Jim Baker should be relieved of his position in the NRA

http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-nra-senior-lobbyist-says-attack-ad-ill-181051948.html

[Wingshooter]

I think it's a valid comparison and a good point. He wants to use our tax dollars to disarm us all while providing armed security for his own kids.

 

 

 

I don't want to drift the thread, but this part of the article scares me as much as anything....

 

Christie is considered a possible Republican presidential contender in 2016

 

:down:

[Oh Shoot]

"I don't think it was particularly helpful, that ad," Baker told Reuters in a telephone interview. "I thought it ill-advised."

 

I agree. Just like the iOS shooting game.

 

Doesn't matter that it was logical. The grabbers aren't using logic -- they're using better PR.

 

- OS

[Red Haired Girl]

You are correct, it was terrible timing. My point, and I did not make it clear at all, is about him saying it to the press. If the liberals get even a sniff of the possibility of a crack in the armor, or a hint of no united front in the NRA, they will go for the jugular and this fight will be lost.

[Oh Shoot]

You are correct, it was terrible timing. My point, and I did not make it clear at all, is about him saying it to the press. If the liberals get even a sniff of the possibility of a crack in the armor, or a hint of no united front in the NRA, they will go for the jugular and this fight will be lost.

 

Yup, yours is equally valid point.  Definitely a PR failure by insider commenting on a PR failure.

 

- OS

Edited January 26, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[m16ty]

He should be fired. There's nothing wrong with him voicing his concerns behind closed doors with NRA senior management. What is unacceptable is him doing it publicly. It would be grounds for termination in just about any organization.

 

I'm starting to wonder who's side he's on.

[leroy]

Remember, the truth is always the truth regardless of timing or delivery.   I'm 66 years old and ive never seen the divide any deeper nor the rancor any nastier than it is now between the opposite sides of the political spectrum.  It's time to tell the truth.  These people want to disarm you and me; while keeping their arms and bodyguards.  It's nothin more that the social darwinism thing that wuz popular in the early 1900s. At its core; it says: "....We the elites are smarter and more responsible than you less evolved "ordinary citizens"; therefore we'll TELL YOU what's good for you and make you abide by it, because we are "more advanced beings; and you are too ignorant to know what's good for you; so we'll disarm you and threaten you with the power of the state to keep you in line....".  

 

I wouldn't worry about offending these sons and daughters of satan.  They are tryin to disarm you and make you a serf while tellin you that that's not what their doing.  Finestein just as well have been standing on the caskets of the kids murdered at Newtown when she started this show.  It's political opportunism, pure and simple. 

 

Remember, political figures are "public figures".   That's a choice they make goin into politics.  They bring their families along with them, and should have no expectation of privacy for themselves or their family members.  They may try "theatrics" and "feigned outrage" at those who criticize or point uncomfortable things out publically; demanding that family be "off limits" ALA Clinton and Nobama.  I say "baloney".  It's a "red herring"; they know better.  It's nothin but an opportunity to try to divert the conversation from the real issue to a side issue that really means nothing for tactical advantage. Dont get drug off in the woods with this baloney; that's what it is. The republicans criticized Truman's daughters piano playin ability; the demorats called Lincoln the "Illinois Baboon; the demorats said Bush wuz dumb.   They just may have been right on all counts.  They were, in fact, "unkind on all counts" and meant to be.  Politics is a tough business.   I say: "...The hell with most all of them... Theyve asked for this, let it be...".  

 

Remember the great quote from a real hero and giant of politics, Fredrick Douglas: "...I will always join with those who are doing right, and never join with those who are doin wrong...".  That's exactly where we are today.  I refuse to turn on and "eat" those who are tryin to help in this battle.  I would advise you and others in the kindest way possible, not to do so either.   We're well past the point of worryin about hurting feelings and worryin about timing.  This one is for all the marbles.

 

leroy

Edited January 26, 2013 by leroy

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Attenuating your own group's decision doesn't look good. Waffling's all it is. Baker must not be much of a lobbyist and he doesn't speak

well for the organization. Probably should go. If they do something like this intentionally, it could be a sign for some kind of compromise

no one I know wants. There is no room at all for compromise, and no need.

[1gewehr]

So, it's OK for Obama to surround himself with kids for political theater, but it's not OK for the NRA to point out Obama's hypocrisy?

[Oh Shoot]

So, it's OK for Obama to surround himself with kids for political theater, but it's not OK for the NRA to point out Obama's hypocrisy?

 

You're being logical again. The NRA ad was logical, but PR type persuasion is seldom a matter of logic.

 

You can't sway the extremes, you aim at the middle. I contend NRA's "in your face"  PR since Sandy Hook has driven more from the middle toward the grabbers than toward the keepers.

 

Of course, Baker coming unglued hurts the cause too, even though he's right.

 

- OS

[RichardR]

Walking on egg-shells is not a winning strategy. Edited January 26, 2013 by RichardR

[Glenn]

Remember, the truth is always the truth regardless of timing or delivery. I'm 66 years old and ive never seen the divide any deeper nor the rancor any nastier than it is now between the opposite sides of the political spectrum. It's time to tell the truth. These people want to disarm you and me; while keeping their arms and bodyguards. It's nothin more that the social darwinism thing that wuz popular in the early 1900s. At its core; it says: "....We the elites are smarter and more responsible than you less evolved "ordinary citizens"; therefore we'll TELL YOU what's good for you and make you abide by it, because we are "more advanced beings; and you are too ignorant to know what's good for you; so we'll disarm you and threaten you with the power of the state to keep you in line....".

I wouldn't worry about offending these sons and daughters of satan. They are tryin to disarm you and make you a serf while tellin you that that's not what their doing. Finestein just as well have been standing on the caskets of the kids murdered at Newtown when she started this show. It's political opportunism, pure and simple.

Remember, political figures are "public figures". That's a choice they make goin into politics. They bring their families along with them, and should have no expectation of privacy for themselves or their cgi members. They may try "theatrics" and "feigned outrage" at those who criticize or point uncomfortable things out publically; demanding that family be "off limits" ALA Clinton and Nobama. I say "baloney". It's a "red herring"; they know better. It's nothin but an opportunity to try to divert the conversation from the real issue to a side issue that really means nothing for tactical advantage. Dont get drug off in the woods with this baloney; that's what it is. The republicans criticized Truman's daughters piano playin ability; the demorats called Lincoln the "Illinois Baboon; the demorats said Bush wuz dumb. They just may have been right on all counts. They were, in fact, "unkind on all counts" and meant to be. Politics is a tough business. I say: "...The hell with most all of them... Theyve asked for this, let it be...".

Remember the great quote from a real hero and giant of politics, Fredrick Douglas: "...I will always join with those who are doing right, and never join with those who are doin wrong...". That's exactly where we are today. I refuse to turn on and "eat" those who are tryin to help in this battle. I would advise you and others in the kindest way possible, not to do so either. We're well past the point of worryin about hurting feelings and worryin about timing. This one is for all the marbles.

leroy

Leroy,
This is clear and exactly to the point. Thanks for saying what I wish I could say so well. Great job. Edited January 26, 2013 by Glenn

[Oh Shoot]

Walking on egg-shells is not a winning strategy.

 

Driving folks away from you so that they influence enough votes to nuke your cause isn't either.

 

- OS

[AUG]

The NRA should go after the gun grabbers with both fist flying.  The weakling PR battle will always be lost by our side as long as 93% of the national media are democrat.  Forget the PR.  We don't have to win the hearts and minds of NY soccer moms and Manhattan/DC liberal elites.  We will NEVER win them over.  We only have to win a few wishy washy law makers that belong to the so called "moderate" wing of both parties.

 

The weakness tactic has lost the two last presidential elections.  Appeasement clearly doesn't work and trying to fight a PR battle that we have already lost is just flat out bad strategy and assures us a loss of our 2nd amenment freedoms.

Edited January 27, 2013 by AUG

[Oh Shoot]

The NRA should go after the gun grabbers with both fist flying.  The weakling PR battle will always be lost by our side as long as 93% of the national media are democrat.  Forget the PR.  We don't have to win the hearts and minds of NY soccer moms and Manhattan/DC liberal elites.  We will NEVER win them over.  We only have to win a few wishy washy law makers that belong to the so called "moderate" wing of both parties.

 

The weakness tactic has lost the two last presidential elections.  Appeasement clearly doesn't work and trying to fight a PR battle that we have already lost is just flat out bad strategy and assures us a loss of our 2nd amenment freedoms.

 

Yep, let's continue to alienate enough folks so that their pols become convinced that an anti-gun congressional vote won't cost them their next election. Shrewd tactic.

 

The antis write too, ya know, particularly the pissed off ones, and the pols are influenced by polls, especially ones they may be contracting privately targeting their own fiefdoms constituencies.

 

- OS

Edited January 27, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[vontar]

I believe the NRA should have went with more of this type of add.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAFAywYZK-M

 

Just to show how pointless gun free zones really are.

[RichardR]

Driving folks away from you so that they influence enough votes to nuke your cause isn't either.

- OS

That is only because We the People have been fooled into believing that "shall not be infringed" can be indeed be infringed if there are enough votes in Congress to do so.

We the People need not fear of the fear-mongers, it is the fear-mongers who need to fear We the People.

[AUG]

Yep, let's continue to alienate enough folks so that their pols become convinced that an anti-gun congressional vote won't cost them their next election. Shrewd tactic.

 

The antis write too, ya know, particularly the pissed off ones, and the pols are influenced by polls, especially ones they may be contracting privately targeting their own fiefdoms constituencies.

 

- OS

I know you mean well but your method just flat out doesn't work.

[Oh Shoot]

I know you mean well but your method just flat out doesn't work.

 

A legislator's conscience is determined by what will get him reelected, and he determines that by a variety of methods to feel the pulse of his constituency and the money flow that will or won't come his way depending on his stand. Nationwide, I posit that the NRA's clumsy efforts since Sandy Hook has swayed more folks and money toward the anti-gun side than our side.

 

That is what doesn't work.

 

- OS

[RichardR]

A legislator's conscience is determined by what will get him reelected, and he determines that by a variety of methods to feel the pulse of his constituency and the money flow that will or won't come his way depending on his stand. Nationwide, I posit that the NRA's clumsy efforts since Sandy Hook has swayed more folks and money toward the anti-gun side than our side.

That is what doesn't work.

- OS

You are still operating under the assumption that "shall not be infringed" can in fact be infringed any time that there are enough votes in Congress to do so.

We the People should instead demand that every elected official who swore an oath to uphold & defend the Constitution against all enemies, foriegn & domestic to do so.

If our elected officials refuse or fail in that task, than We the People should demand that our military uphold their oaths....

Make no mistake about it, we will loose this country to communism if the above does not happen.

[Oh Shoot]

You are still operating under the assumption that "shall not be infringed" can in fact be infringed any time that there are enough votes in Congress to do so...

Pretty good assumption since it's happened in a major way about 6 times.
 

We the People should instead demand that every elected official who swore an oath to uphold & defend the Constitution against all enemies, foriegn & domestic to do so.

If our elected officials refuse or fail in that task, than We the People should demand that our military uphold their oaths....

Make no mistake about it, we will loose this country to communism if the above does not happen.

So you'd lose it to a military junta instead, under your scenario. The last time that played out well anywhere on the planet to my knowledge was in 1783 and it wouldn't play the same again.

I believe we're going to keep most of our remaining gun rights this time around -- but America will continue on its liberal socialistic path until enough people experience enough pain to change it. Hyper-inflation oughtta do it, btw.

But as far as the gun rights part, shooing away the flies to the other side by using vinegar instead of honey can only accelerate the loss of those in the meantime.

- OS

[AUG]

A legislator's conscience is determined by what will get him reelected, and he determines that by a variety of methods to feel the pulse of his constituency and the money flow that will or won't come his way depending on his stand. Nationwide, I posit that the NRA's clumsy efforts since Sandy Hook has swayed more folks and money toward the anti-gun side than our side.

 

That is what doesn't work.

 

- OS

You may "posit" all you want but you are still wrong.  The NRA is surging in popularity and fund raising.  Where are you getting your info because it is not accurate?  Turn of the lame stream media.  THEY LIE!!!!!!!!  The NRA has picked up 1/4 million members in the last month alone.  Does any dues paying anti group even have that many members?

 

Don't fight for acceptance in the media.  It is impossible.  We will never convince the suburbanite sheeple to come to our side and the left wing base would vote for a steaming pile of dung if it promised not to cut hand outs.  Our path to victory is to rally our base and forget the illusion of "the middle" or "undecideds" which are mostly created by the media for the sake of election drama.

[leroy]

AUG has spoke a great truth here: 

 

 

Don't fight for acceptance in the media.  It is impossible.  We will never convince the suburbanite sheeple to come to our side and the left wing base would vote for a steaming pile of dung if it promised not to cut hand outs.  Our path to victory is to rally our base and forget the illusion of "the middle" or "undecideds" which are mostly created by the media for the sake of election drama.

 

"Real people" will win this battle.  It's a battle between the folks that believe that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and the "fiefdoms of the big cities".  "Low information" people like unwed moms with absentee fathers are for gun bans because they cant bring themselves to believe that the "children" using these guns in gangs, mayhem, and robberies are actually kin to them (...they are, in many cases...) and are, in fact, responsible for their actions.  The cause, in their minds, at least is that "guns are bad"; "someone gave it to 'em", you name it.  Its a created "fantasy" that says someone else (...us gun owners...) are somehow responsible for this problem.  It is a fantasy of shirking of responsibility and placing blame on others for the failures of those involved; just as it's always been.

 

The inner city in fully invested in the narrative that "...someone else is responsible for the mess im in; and i should be excused for any mayhem and crimes ive done because someone else put me down..."   That mantra has been goin on since the sixties.  The inner city preachers and "men and women of the cloth" are invested in it because it shifts blame to someone else and allows them a pass on saying what is really goin on.  That is, that where the family dies, society crumbles; and that "bad hearts" and evil minds are the root of crimes, rapes, murders, killins, etc.  Folks dont like to hear that; it's too uncomfortably true and it hurts to admit that "...you are ressponsible for your own actions...".  It's a whole lot easier to talk about some  unseen monster puttin ya down; than it is to tell the truth, and they well know it.  The demigogues in the religion enterprise, the "civil rights" enterprize, and the stinkin big city polititians are invested in it because it empowers them and creates followers of the narrative.  These people could give a damn less about the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Second Amendment, or you and me; for that matter. They care about power and influence, and nothin else.

 

To them, we are the enemy; although i dont (...and i suspect that you dont either...) remember enslaving anyone up there, takin anything from them, nor mistreating them in any way.  This bunch of sons and daughters of satan intend to "enslave whitey and the delightful rustics" who dont see things their way.  It is nothing but an attempt at "scorched earth" retribution ALA post -civil war reconstruction aimed at punishing people who dont see things their way.  It is dangerous, devisive, and could come to a bad end. 

 

We need to keep the pressure on the political class to ensure that the idiotic things proposed by harpys like Feinstein and demigogues like Nobama dont get codified into laws "to help everyone".  It's time for folks to realize that this country has been separated and balkanized by these sons of satan to the extent that most no one cares about this "big city" neighbors, and the "big city" neighbors despise their rustic neighbors who actually believe what the Constitution says. 

 

This thing aint goin away, nor will it be settled sensibly as long as men like Nobama and this cronies are sittin in the white house.  It's been said here and in other places im sure, that the greatest threat to this country aint religious zelotry, Bin Laden, North Korea; nor Iran.  The greatest threat to this country today is the extreme left wing political class demigogues who inhabit the political scene in this county who intend to make this place into a semi-european fiefdom where there are two classes.  The ruling class and the serfs.  Im sure you can easily figure out who is who in this evil fantasy. 

 

The only thing that folks can hope to do is to keep the political class honest and afraid to "compromise for the common good" on these issues.  The only way to keep 'em honest is to keep the pressure on them.  Dont worry about winnin the undecideds and the media over to out side; its too late for that.  As AUG said; this will have to be won at the grass roots level in the fly over country.  More than that, it will have to be fought at every level of government to the extent that the political class is afraid to move on these issues.   Said another way, it will have to be won at the ballot box in ever election between now and the end of the Nobama (...and any other demorat...) administration that puts forth socialist, totalitarian malarkey like this; all the while tellin you its for the "good of the children".  The most effective organization for doin this right now is the NRA.  I would quit complaining, third basing, and criticizing the folks tryin to win this one.  They are tryin to help.  I recommend that we try to help too.

 

leroy

[RichardR]

Pretty good assumption since it's happened in a major way about 6 times.

- OS

And it will keep happening if We the People refuse to demand that our elected officials & our military uphold their oaths.

As you point out, We the People have already made multiple "reasonable" concessions on our 2nd Amendment protections in the interest of public safety, so now the fear mongers & communist propagandist's are demanding "unreasonable" concessions, based not on a weapon's destructiveness or ease of aquiring, such as our previous concessions which were "reasonable" to most folks on explosive devices, full-auto capabilities, back ground checks, permits for carry, etc).

It should be obvious to all free-thinking American that the real purpose behind these proposed "unreasonable" restrictions are not in the interest of public safety but instead are for the sole purpose of disarming the citizenry of any & all means of resisting the totalitarian decrees of a one-party system of government.

We are currently on that path, the Democrats of today are not our Fathers Democrats, the hardcore leftist ideology is now the mainstream, they have consolidated enough power in government & in the population at large to be a genuine threat, not only to our liberties, but historically to the very lives of any & all who would dare to desent.

No my friend, walking on egg-shells will not protect this once great nation from becoming a one-party State, I am afraid that demanding that our elected officials & God forbid our military to uphold their oaths is our nations only salvation at this point.

And if those who took the oath refuse or fail to protect & defend the Constitution from ALL it's enemies, ALL of our children's future will surely be that of servitude to the State.

[Oh Shoot]

Aug, Leroy, RichardR....

 

Foregoing any long rebuttal, we simply disagree about the best way to win. I'm not talking about appeasement, erasing any lines in the sand, or compromise from a position of weakness or desperation.

 

I'm simply stating the fact that short of all out insurrection, our crooked mouthpieces both on state and federal level will determine the real world extent of our 2A rights, and measures that drive folks away from your cause are counterproductive, as they petition those same crooks we do.

 

The degree to which that has happened thus far from NRA's PR tactics is obviously largely unquantifiable, so "opining" is just that, but  public polls I've seen are quite disheartening regarding the national perception of NRA, and how much that has changed over a relatively short period of time.

 

Don't act like I'm not on the same side here. Hell, since '07, NRA gets more of my donations annually than any other cause I give to, so it's not like I don't put my money where my mouth is, as it were. I just don't think they've been very effective since Sandy Hook in the most visible way of playing the game in order to win it

 

- OS