Steps to get a FFL

[Guest jth_3s]

Thats what I said I was going to do and as for now I have quit what I was doing. I couldnt find that magic number and even an ATF agent couldnt tell me. where did you hear that?

[TGO David]

Yea I have to agree with you on this one. No sense in pissing off people who can send you to the pen. Im gonna try to get my FFLs becasue they told me I needed them.

While this is of no consequence, I cannot help but to have noticed over the past few years of reading gun forums online that there is a pervading attitude of belligerence toward the Government or authorities when issues like this come up. As a result, some really bad advice is given. Perhaps more frightening, some of it is actually followed.

I don't think any of us here feel warm and fuzzy about having our Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms infringed upon. Some of us may feel that the government has no business limiting the number of firearms that we can sell privately, but the government respectfully disagrees with us and has the wherewithal to make life very, very unpleasant should we choose to ignore their opinion.

There are a lot of issues where you can get away with being a conscientious objector and suffer no ill effects. There are even those times when you can engage in civil disobedience and only receive a slap on the wrist. But this isn't one of them.

Like I said, nobody here is going to volunteer to go to jail for you or pay a fine if they are wrong and the government is right. I think you're doing the right thing by investigating your options and choosing to play the game according to the Fed's rules.

Good luck.

[The Rabbi]

There is a magic number of guns you can sell in a year before the BATFE considers you a dealer and wants their application and fee.

That number is low. That number is around 10.

If I were you I would either stop doing what you are doing or pony up the $200, get an FFL and play by the rules.

What is your source for this statement?

If he gets the license then he will have to keep 4473s and run background checks every time he wants to transfer a gun.

But as I recall, there is a question on the application that asks "do you intend to make a profit in this business?"

In my interview with the ATF agent I recall he asked the same thing.

If the answer is no (and that seems to be the case) then they won't grant the license.

[Guest db99wj]

Take this as a comment from a guy with limited knowledge and looking in on this conversation.

It sounds like you don't need a FFL, but for some reason, you have shown up on the BATFE's radar, enough where they have told you what you need to do. Seems to me that you need to at a minimum, which it sounds like you are doing, fill out the application, pay the money, and wait to be turned down. I am guessing you got the card or at least the name and number of the agent and I would call him and tell him the results of your application and ask for advice, and possibly get an attorney to assist you. I, and this is my thinking, I would do everything possible to cover my ass in this situation so that I am not made an example of and jeopardize my ability to remain a gun owner.

Well that is my $.01, yes that is a discounted price due to my non -professional knowledge and speaking only as a casual observer.

[molonlabetn]

It's one thing to have a large collection (from a parent-grandparent, etc...), and be slowly liquidating what you don't want to keep... it's entirely another to be buying and selling guns every week, especially if you don't shoot them. Now, I'm not sure which catagory you're in... but it would be much harder to attract negative attention doing the former. And if it's the latter, you should indeed get yourself an FFL and your own storefront.

Otherwise, perhaps you should look into simply consigning the guns you want to sell with a local dealer? That shouldn't be an issue if you're not in it for profit...

[skipsfirearms]

The Rabbi is right, if you do not intend on making a profit from guns sales, they will not give you an FFL.

I have been dealing with the ATF for the past couple of years since I received my FFL, and I remember the investigator asking me in my interview if I planned to have a shop and sell for profit.

I have several local Chattanooga ATF investigators who come by the shop and even buy from me. I have heard the stories from other FFL's, even one who is in the same plaza with me and runs a pawn shop, about how bad the ATF is. They just come in and stomp on your rights and do whatever they want.

I have never experienced this. I only have a small shop and only run about 400 firearms transactions a year, so maybe I am very small on their radar. The agents and investigators I have had experience with have always been good to deal with. I am not saying that they can't be Butt Heads, but I have not had them be that way to me.

I would go ahead and fill out the application and wait. If I am not mistaken, if they turn you down you will get the Application Fee back. So what do you have to lose except a little time and fingerprints?

Here in Bradley county, Cleveland TN, there are several FFL's that operate from their home and they are not zoned "Commercial". I was turned down for my FFL at my home because I am zoned "Farming, Agriculture & Residential". But several dealers I know have them in their homes and they live in a different part of the county I do.

[Guest jth_3s]

That doesnt sound like a bad Idea. If I sell a gun to a FFL for what I have in it Im fine with that but I doubt they'll do it.

[molonlabetn]

That doesnt sound like a bad Idea. If I sell a gun to a FFL for what I have in it Im fine with that but I doubt they'll do it.

Some shops will allow you to consign your guns for a small fee, meaning you put your own price on the gun, and the dealer gets a cut. If it sells, you get the money out of it you want, and it's the buyer who pays that $25 or some percentage over and above your price (unknowingly, most likely).

It's different than selling or trading in guns to an FFL.

[Guest jth_3s]

My friend said they were pretty nice and were basically just giving a warning this time. I think the main reason they came was at the request of a local FFL. Ill talk to the agents and see what I need to do

[I_Like_Pie]

I am kinda lost here!?!

If you are selling/trading your personal firearms how the heck is anyone other than the people involved in the trade even aware of this? You say the BATF is giving you a warning, but if you sell to anyone in Tennessee there is no paperwork and the transaction is no different then if you were selling them an old lawnmower.

No offense intended, but what the heck were you guys doing? There is no paperwork involved. The only instance that I think that you will raise eyebrows is if you sell to someone out of state via FFL and there were more than 2 handguns involved.

Something isn't adding up and there is no mystery to any of the laws because they are very, very easy to research and educate oneself about via a bunch of communication channels (telephone, internet, library, lawyer, fellow FFL). If you are wanting advice via a forum you are looking in the wrong place.

[molonlabetn]

I think the issue was there were alot of guns for sale on local classifieds and online by him and his buddy.

[Guest jth_3s]

Yea the issue was a bunch of people from the same town were trading on the same website and a local FFL got mad. I didnt intend for this thread to get into details on this I just wanted some advice about getting my FFLs. Id like to thank everybody for their advice but Im just gonna try to get my FFL.

[The Rabbi]

Yea the issue was a bunch of people from the same town were trading on the same website and a local FFL got mad. I didnt intend for this thread to get into details on this I just wanted some advice about getting my FFLs. Id like to thank everybody for their advice but Im just gonna try to get my FFL.

There are lots of people trading on this website. So what?

[Fallguy]

Yea the issue was a bunch of people from the same town were trading on the same website and a local FFL got mad. I didnt intend for this thread to get into details on this I just wanted some advice about getting my FFLs. Id like to thank everybody for their advice but Im just gonna try to get my FFL.

Oh you'll learn that thread drift and delving into details not necessarly needed to answer the question and the like is pretty much the norm here.

But makes for good coversation and long threads....

[TGO David]

There are lots of people trading on this website. So what?

I was wrong. Rabbi is apparently willing to step in for you and deal with the ATF on your behalf.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Oh you'll learn that thread drift, people reiterating what has already been said a dozen times so they can see themselves "talk" and feel important, and delving into details not necessarly needed to answer the question and the like is pretty much the norm here.

Fixed that.

[Fallguy]

LOL

You forgot to mention to bolster their post count a well....

[The Rabbi]

I was wrong. Rabbi is apparently willing to step in for you and deal with the ATF on your behalf.

He asked a question on the website. It led into a discussion. Some of us have gone through this process so have a little insight into it. Maybe by sharing that the process and issues for FFLs will become clearer, not just for him but for other interested people reading the thread.

What is your problem?

[bteague2]

None of the people who are giving you advice here (good or bad) is going to step up and go to prison for you or pay a fine for you if they're wrong and the Government was right.

I think I'd take heed to what a Federal Agent told me and give more weight to that than I would what a bunch of faceless strangers on the Internet told me. If they felt you were doing something that might get you in trouble, then they are already watching you.

Only you know the specifics of this situation. Take that, add it to what you learn when you receive your FFL information packet, then let your gut instinct be your guide. In the meantime, I'd try talking to a competent lawyer also and solicit their professional opinion.

Good luck.

No offense Tungsten, but grow a pair. I agree with you on probably 90% of gun related things but not this one. I understand your worried about liability as this is your site and your responsibility, but: he isn't doing it to make money he's said that. That's what FFLs are, there for businesses. The ATF and it's agents have more horror stories of bullying people, ignoring their own laws, and all sorts of "scare tactics" which is what sounds like is going on. If he can prove he isn't making money, doing straw purchases, or anything like that; he hasn't broken a law. As much as it doesn't work sometimes, or if it does isn't worth the money it cost; I have faith(a little) in our system.

Maybe the OP should not do what he is doing as much, or be smarter about how he does it. Even if you play ball, they will still try to screw you.

[Guest jth_3s]

I got my FFL form and I dont think I qualify. It actually says if you intend to get the FFL to enhance your personal collection dont apply. After reading several horror stories from other sites Im kind of afraid to even trade a gun period. Im thinking about sending in the application with my intentions filled out and just getting turned down so I will have a record that at least I tried to work with them.

[TGO David]

No offense Tungsten, but grow a pair. I agree with you on probably 90% of gun related things but not this one. I understand your worried about liability as this is your site and your responsibility, but: he isn't doing it to make money he's said that. That's what FFLs are, there for businesses. The ATF and it's agents have more horror stories of bullying people, ignoring their own laws, and all sorts of "scare tactics" which is what sounds like is going on. If he can prove he isn't making money, doing straw purchases, or anything like that; he hasn't broken a law. As much as it doesn't work sometimes, or if it does isn't worth the money it cost; I have faith(a little) in our system.

Maybe the OP should not do what he is doing as much, or be smarter about how he does it. Even if you play ball, they will still try to screw you.

Grow a pair? My opinion in this thread has nothing to do with my personal liability. What it does have to do with is that I know a little more about this exact, specific situation than you do.

I was put on notice a while back that the ATF was looking at some of the personal transactions being conducted via this site. Maybe you'll recall that about a month ago we really tightened down on who could post ads and such. Those changes happened for a reason. They happened to protect members from themselves and from people who were here simply to conduct what the government was at least concerned might have constituted shady dealings in respect to the law.

This is not to say that the original poster was doing any of those things. I'm just stating the fact that TGO was being looked at and probably will continue to be monitored so long as civilians trade among themselves here.

The original poster had very good reason to be concerned and had very good reason to follow procedure and investigate obtaining a Federal Firearms License given what I know about that particular situation.

Thanks for your input.

[TripleDigitRide]

How did I miss this thread?

If the OP is talking about a guy in Smithville, with the first name that starts with "S", he deserves what he gets. That moron screwed me around and lied to me about a purchase I was supposed to make from him. He's a complete waste of time.

After reading this thread, I'm glad the deal didn't work out as he described it would. I don't need mixed up in all that.

And that guy wasn't just selling a "few" guns. He had roughly 20 (kinda guessing, but I'm sure it's close) guns on LSN at a time. He was selling big time. According to him, they were part of a personal collection of 200-300 guns. On top of that, if it's the same guy, he used to sell/supply guns at a gun store in the Smithville area, but it's no longer open.

With an "Average Joe" selling that many firearms, it's no wonder the ATF took issue.

Edited July 8, 2008 by TripleDigitRide

[Guest jth_3s]

No I wasn't talking about anybody in particular I just wanted to try and make sure Im within the Law. I have to agree with everything Tungsten said. No offense but the only people who can tell me if Im within the law are the ATF or a court. I just wanted to check and see if anybody could tell me how much trouble it was to get an FFL and I didnt mean to get into details. I plan on talking to the ATF at the next gun show I go to and see what I need to do.

[TripleDigitRide]

Sounds like you're on the right track. Maybe you could schedule a FTF meeting with the ATF. Maybe they can give you some exacts. Tell them that you'd like to stay within the law, and you really need some information.

I definitely don't buy/sell/trade that many firearms, so I've never taken the time to investigate the ATF laws quite that deep, but one would think they would have some hard numbers to go by. I would also venture to guess that the ATF doesn't usually come knocking on your door if you're simply trading a "few" firearms.

[Guest jth_3s]

Yea they werent just coming because of me or a few others I think the guy you are talking about is the main reason they came. I dont know him very well but if he had been out of the equation Id say they would have never came.