David Shepard against arming teachers

[m16ty]

State Rep. David Shepard is leaning toward being against arming teachers. His reasoning is that the NEA is against it. Typical Democrat, bowing down to the teacher's union.

 

Why is the NEA against arming teachers? Do they not trust their own membership to be smart enough to handle a gun?

 

I'm all for the safety of teachers but they aren't my biggest concern, the kids are.

[Guest ThePunisher]

Just let conservative teachers carry. There are some Libtard teachers I wouldn't want carrying in schools. Not all teachers are Libtard democrats.

[daveW]

[quote name="ThePunisher" post="889417" timestamp="1358569221"]Just let conservative teachers carry. There are some Libtard teachers I wouldn't want carrying in schools. Not all teachers are Libtard democrats.[/quote] I am proof of this...I teach high school and am definitely not a democrat. As a realist, however, I am surprised that the notion of arming teachers still gets talked about. I would vote for it, if given the chance but it seems soooo far fetched. The parking lot bill has my hopes up, though.

[m16ty]

 Not all teachers are Libtard democrats.

 

I know, my wife is a teacher. She's not a member of the teacher's union.

[TrickyNicky]

Mom and sister both teachers. Mom does K-1st and would do anything possible to put herself between "her" kids and danger. As a former LAPD reserve officer and current recreational shooter I can not fathom a single reason she should not be allowed to go armed to work. Arthritis limits her shooting to .22s but I would still much rather her have her sr22 than nothing.

[Moped]

I have no problem with qualified teachers being selected and armed.  But my personal preference would be to see armed SRO's in all schools for two reasons.

 

One, they are better trained than the average teacher would ever be (short of a combat veteran or an ex-police officer). I currently only know one teacher that I think would be qualified enough to be armed at a school.

 

Two. I think it's great for children to learn that they can trust a police officer.  You would be surprised how well children get to know the support staff at school and that includes SROs.  I do think SRO's need additional training above your average patrol officer on how to interact with children in a school environment.  I think that's a different situation than being on the street.

 

Currently I know several teachers and I only consider one of them qualified to be armed.  He is also one of the best shots I know with either a pistol or rifle and a veteran.  I quizzed my High School Senior about which teacher she thought would be qualified to be armed at her school and she said there was only one that she thought was qualified to carry a firearm, and he is a also a veteran,

Edited January 19, 2013 by Moped

[DaveTN]

Mom and sister both teachers. Mom does K-1st and would do anything possible to put herself between "her" kids and danger. As a former LAPD reserve officer and current recreational shooter I can not fathom a single reason she should not be allowed to go armed to work. Arthritis limits her shooting to .22s but I would still much rather her have her sr22 than nothing.

I disagree, if she can’t handle a quality firearm she needs to sit this out. I don’t see this happening, but I would support it if the teachers were required to pass the same qualifications the cops in their area are required to pass. I think that is fair, and I don’t think it will be accepted by the parents any other way.

 

There are HCP holders that couldn’t hit the side of a barn if they were standing inside it. These are not the people we want in high stress, adrenalin charged situation firing a gun. They may be “better than nothing” but fortunately that is not what we are faced with. I think there will be teachers that would step up and participate in the required training/qualifications

[TrickyNicky]

[quote name="DaveTN" post="889615" timestamp="1358608980"]I disagree, if she can’t handle a quality firearm she needs to sit this out. I don’t see this happening, but I would support it if the teachers were required to pass the same qualifications the cops in their area are required to pass. I think that is fair, and I don’t think it will be accepted by the parents any other way.   There are HCP holders that couldn’t hit the side of a barn if they were standing inside it. These are not the people we want in high stress, adrenalin charged situation firing a gun. They may be “better than nothing” but fortunately that is not what we are faced with. I think there will be teachers that would step up and participate in the required training/qualifications[/quote] So by your logic you'd rather she not be able to protect herself or the children in her class because she can't handle a "manly" caliber? Makes no sense to me but fwiw I'm sure there is a center fire out there she would be comfortable with. She's still good with a revolver...

[DaveTN]

So by your logic you'd rather she not be able to protect herself or the children in her class because she can't handle a "manly" caliber?

Not at all. I’m saying that if she has a handicap that keeps her from handling an acceptable self-defense round she is not a good choice.

My friend’s wife could not pass the HCP shooting qualification. They let her come back and she used a .22 pistol with a scope. Would you want to allow someone like that to carry around your kid? I wouldn’t. We have seen all kinds of horror stories on here from things people have seen in HCP classes. HCP is a joke, but if teachers want to meet the same shooting requirements required for their cops; I think they should be considered. The gun free zone is never going to happen in schools; it just isn’t.

[Dustbuster]

My mom is a retired high school teacher.I grew up learning of school frustrations.Be advised,a teachers near poverty salary would barely allow for personal range time,training,and no less the purchase of  any firearm. I know of a student who enrolled in davidson county's public school system.He didnt have books for 2 weeks due to a shortage of books.The reason given was "we dont have any extra books because funds wont allow for it".

Were talking about public school teachers just to be clear. Next issue is insurance.Dont think for a minute it wont go up and someone will have to pay.Its a risk management issue.People forget about the necessary evils.

Id love to see teachers driving tanks to some schools, having an rpg in the corner with a taser gun in a holster would barely be a  deterrent in some schools Trust me some need it.Even in middle tn.

 

David Shepard should really lean towards allowing teachers to make the choice especially if theres no SRO or other officer on a beat closeby.Carry should be allowed in schools with reasonable parameters.

Idiots with boxcutters took our country down with a handful of planes,and now were dealing with the aftermath created by a nut who got mommy's guns...better to be proactive with a deterrent,than letting the media handle the effect of negligent.

Someone should also remind him that Americas ROE policy has been to avoid houses of worship,schools,and civilians.

The bad guys know this and use it to their advantage.We've been lucky

Rules of Engagement dont exist with morons on a mission.Schools need to be tight.Let MS (or MR) Crabtree decide on her own...;)

Edited January 19, 2013 by Dustbuster

[Guest TNSovereignty]

I have no problem with qualified teachers being selected and armed.  But my personal preference would be to see armed RSO's in all schools for two reasons.

 

One, they are better trained than the average teacher would ever be (short of a combat veteran or an ex-police officer). I currently only know one teacher that I think would be qualified enough to be armed at a school.

 

Two. I think it's great for children to learn that they can trust a police officer.  You would be surprised how well children get to know the support staff at school and that includes RSOs.  I do think RSO's need additional training above your average patrol officer on how to interact with children in a school environment.  I think that's a different situation than being on the street.

I hear you, and I love kids (got 6 of them), but is anyone else tiring of their pocket being continually picked on behalf of "the children"?  Citizens are already being plundered to the tune of $8K/student/year, and we're not seeing results to justify the expense.  Throw in a few RSOs here & there, they'll join the NEA, and we'll have yet another class of well-heeled gov't employees.  If (when?) we have another shooting, what then?  More RSOs?  Concertina wire & guard towers?

 

Point 2 - beyond the money issue:  if we go this route we're going to train up a generation of kids that are COMFORTABLE with a police state.   Surveillance cameras, magnetometers, armed guards, K-9 squads, and in the very near future biometric ID & probably embedded chips, all for the safety of "the children."  This is a murky road that leads to a citizenry unalarmed by TSA, FBI, ATF, DEA, ICE thuggery.  I want to know and trust my local peace officers ... I want my children to to trust ME, not the state.

 

We need to think all the way through the cascading consequences of RSOs & schools that resemble prisons more than schoolhouses.  

[Dustbuster]

excellent points,we def dont want prison type atmospheres.....

[DaveTN]

I hear you, and I love kids (got 6 of them), but is anyone else tiring of their pocket being continually picked on behalf of "the children"?  Citizens are already being plundered to the tune of $8K/student/year, and we're not seeing results to justify the expense.  Throw in a few RSOs here & there, they'll join the NEA, and we'll have yet another class of well-heeled gov't employees.  If (when?) we have another shooting, what then?  More RSOs?  Concertina wire & guard towers?

 

Point 2 - beyond the money issue:  if we go this route we're going to train up a generation of kids that are COMFORTABLE with a police state.   Surveillance cameras, magnetometers, armed guards, K-9 squads, and in the very near future biometric ID & probably embedded chips, all for the safety of "the children."  This is a murky road that leads to a citizenry unalarmed by TSA, FBI, ATF, DEA, ICE thuggery.  I want to know and trust my local peace officers ... I want my children to to trust ME, not the state.

 

We need to think all the way through the cascading consequences of RSOs & schools that resemble prisons more than schoolhouses.  

You are correct, but you have to choose. The chances of having a mass shooting at your kid’s school are probably less likely than you winning Powerball. That won’t help if your child is killed.

 

I think the answer is to remove the gun free zone status. However I am absolutely sure that will not ever happen; the parents won’t stand for it. They also won’t stand for untrained people carrying guns around their kids. So it’s either pay the money to have trained professionals, get those teachers that are willing the best training available in their area, or do nothing.

[Moped]

I don't consider the schools my kids attend, to be prisons, and I do want my children respectful and trusting of our local LEOs.  We may be our own first line of defense when it comes to crime, but LEO's are the cavalry for all of us.  Part of the crime problem we have today, is due to the fact that we have whole communities that will not talk to or cooperate with LE on a local level.  It's in those communities where crime is a problem and ends up costing us so much tax money, because we have to have more LEOs, courts, jails, and prisons. It's because of those communities, that Liberals in this country are trying to take away our 2A rights.  So yes, I think it's a good idea for my kids to be comfortable around LEOs.

 

There is a trust element that I am not comfortable with when it comes to teachers carrying firearms.  When it comes to SRO's, I am much more comfortable with them, due to their increased level of training.  If we are going to arm a few teachers in every school, then I think they need to under go rigorous training just like police officers do. And they should be paid an additional amount of money for what they are doing as well.  If we are going to do that, then when not just put an SRO on duty.

[daveW]

Personally, I would prefer the issue go away in the form of -lift the penalty for those legally and responsibly armed citizens who choose to exercise their right everywhere, including schools. I don't advocate for passing an exception for certain teachers who certain people think might be responsible enough to carry. I'm 37 years old...in any one of the last 21 of those years, I've fired more rounds safely, responsibly, and for the purpose of training, than your average LEO or .mil type. I don't think that makes me more capable of shooting a bad guy at a school. I do believe, however, that bad guys might go somewhere else if they feel like they will be stopped. Rid the country of gun free zones and part of the problem will be solved.

[Guest TNSovereignty]

You are correct, but you have to choose. The chances of having a mass shooting at your kid’s school are probably less likely than you winning Powerball. That won’t help if your child is killed.

 

I think the answer is to remove the gun free zone status. However I am absolutely sure that will not ever happen; the parents won’t stand for it. They also won’t stand for untrained people carrying guns around their kids. So it’s either pay the money to have trained professionals, get those teachers that are willing the best training available in their area, or do nothing.

I'm in general philosophical agreement with the 'heart' of this issue, but the choice is more complex than the 3 choices of adding RSOs, overturning gun-free zones, or doing nothing. 

 

The issue crystallizes (for me) when I address some presuppositional questions:  Does it take a village to train up a child?  Who has ULTIMATE responsibility for the safety of a child - State or parent?  How far should I go as a parent in delegating responsibilities?  Delegate them to other family members, the community, the state, some RSO who I've never met & know nothing about his/her judgment?   If I am financially able, should I consider home education, where I can serve as teacher, principle, and dead-eye defender? 

 

That latter question raises another, heretofore, unstated option.  Not a universal solution but it's an option that too many are unwilling to undertake.  Couple increased homeschooling with removing gun-free zones from schools & you have a fairly comprehensive solution that does not infringe upon the liberty of others.  But as you state, most parents won't stand for this kind of paradigm shift, because most parents DO believe it takes a village to raise a child.    

[DaveTN]

I'm in general philosophical agreement with the 'heart' of this issue, but the choice is more complex than the 3 choices of adding RSOs, overturning gun-free zones, or doing nothing. 
 
The issue crystallizes (for me) when I address some presuppositional questions:  Does it take a village to train up a child?  Who has ULTIMATE responsibility for the safety of a child - State or parent?  How far should I go as a parent in delegating responsibilities?  Delegate them to other family members, the community, the state, some RSO who I've never met & know nothing about his/her judgment?   If I am financially able, should I consider home education, where I can serve as teacher, principle, and dead-eye defender? 
 
That latter question raises another, heretofore, unstated option.  Not a universal solution but it's an option that too many are unwilling to undertake.  Couple increased homeschooling with removing gun-free zones from schools & you have a fairly comprehensive solution that does not infringe upon the liberty of others.  But as you state, most parents won't stand for this kind of paradigm shift, because most parents DO believe it takes a village to raise a child.    

I had a friend that wanted her kids to go to private schools. When I ask why she said she didn’t want her kids around some of the kids there. Those weren’t the words she used, but you get the idea. I said when I was a cop we had a name for people like that…. Victims.

We all are responsible to make it as safe for our kids as we can. But they need social interaction outside the home to develop the social skills they will need to get by in the world and the workplace. If they get in a bad situation they need to be able to work it out; not start crying for mommy and daddy.

I also believe there are people out there that have the intelligence and ability to home school their kids; unfortunately I think they are few and far between. I only know a few people that home school their kids and those poor kids don’t have a chance of functioning very well in society.

[Guest TNSovereignty]

We all are responsible to make it as safe for our kids as we can. But they need social interaction outside the home to develop the social skills they will need to get by in the world and the workplace. If they get in a bad situation they need to be able to work it out; not start crying for mommy and daddy.

You were doing well until you ended with a common, but laughable argument about socialization.  And what you're ultimately saying is that it DOES take a village to raise a child.  And how come I can't get today's well socialized high schoolers to look me square in the eye?  And I've had them in the world & workplace ... they actually suffer because they've been socialized for 12+ years in the company of fools.  When they get around industrious adults they finally come into their own.  

 

Look through this list ... all were homeschooled at some point in their education, most for the duration.  Wonder how their social interaction was?  Wonder how safe they were at home?  History has something to teach us here.

 

Who are famous or important homeschooled men and women from history?

 

Presidents

·  John Adams

·  John Quincy Adams

·  Grover Cleveland

·  James Garfield

·  William Henry Harrison

·  Andrew Jackson

·  Thomas Jefferson

·  Abraham Lincoln

·  James Madison

·  Franklin Delano Roosevelt

·  Theodore Roosevelt

·  John Tyler

·  George Washington

·  Woodrow Wilson

Statesmen

·  Konrad Adenauer

·  Henry Fountain Ashurst

·  William Jennings Bryan

·  Winston Churchill

·  Henry Clay

·  Pierre du Pont

·  Benjamin Franklin

·  Alexander Hamilton

·  Patrick Henry

·  William Penn

·  Daniel Webster

Military Leaders

·  Alexander the Great  - Greek Ruler

·  John Barry - Senior Navy Officer

·  Stonewall Jackson - Civil War General

·  John Paul Jones - Father of the American Navy

·  Robert E. Lee - Civil War General

·  Douglas MacArthur - U.S. General

·  George Patton - U.S. General

·  Matthew Perry - naval officer who opened up trade with Japan

·  John Pershing - U.S. General

·  David Dixon Porter - Civil War Admiral

U.S. Supreme Court Judges

·  John Jay

·  John Marshall

·  John Rutledge

·  Sandra Day O'Connor

Scientists

·  George Washington Carver

·  Pierre Curie

·  Albert Einstein

·  Michael Faraday - electrochemist

·  Oliver Heaviside - physicist and electromagnetism researcher

·  T.H. Huxley

·  Blaise Pascal

·  Booker T. Washington

·  Erik Demaine - Popular Science Mag: One of the Most Brilliant Scientists in America

 

Inventors

·  Alexander Graham Bell - invented the telephone

·  John Moses Browning - firearms inventor and designer

·  Peter Cooper - invented skyscraper, built first U.S. commercial locomotive

·  Thomas Edison - invented the stock ticker, mimeograph, phonograph, and perfected the electric light bulb

·  Benjamin Franklin - invented the lightning rod

·  Elias Howe - invented sewing machine

·  William Lear - airplane creator

·  Cyrus McCormick - invented grain reaper

·  Guglielmo Marconi - developed radio

·  Eli Whitney - invented the cotton gin

·  Sir Frank Whittle - invented turbo jet engine

·  Orville and Wilbur Wright - built the first successful airplane

Composers

·  Irving Berlin

·  Anton Bruckner

·  Noel Coward

·  Felix Mendelssohn

·  Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

·  Francis Poulenc

·  John Philip Sousa

Writers

·  Hans Christian Anderson

·  Margaret Atwood

·  Pearl S. Buck

·  William F. Buckley, Jr.

·  Willa Cather

·  Agatha Christie

·  Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain)

·  Charles Dickens

·  Robert Frost - Pulitzer Prize-winning poet

·  Charlotte Perkins Gilman

·  Alex Haley

·  Brett Harte

·  L. Ron Hubbard

·  C.S. Lewis

·  Amy Lowell

·  Gabriela Mistral

·  Sean O'Casey

·  Christopher Paolini - author of #1 NY Times bestseller, Eragon

·  Isabel Paterson

·  Beatrix Potter - author of the beloved Peter Rabbit Tales

·  Carl Sandburg

·  George Bernard Shaw

·  Mattie J. T. Stepanek - 11-year-old author of Heartsongs

·  Mercy Warren

·  Phillis Wheatley

·  Walt Whitman

·  Laura Ingalls Wilder

Educators

·  Amos Bronson Alcott - innovative teacher, father of Louisa May Alcott

·  Catharine Beecher - co-founder of the Hartford Female Seminary

·  Jill Ker Conway - first woman president of Smith College

·  Timothy Dwight - President of Yale University

·  William Samuel Johnson - President of Columbia College

·  Horace Mann - "Father of the American Common School"

·  Charlotte Mason - Founder of Charlotte Mason College of Education

·  Fred Terman - President of Stanford University

·  Frank Vandiver - President of Texas A&M University

·  Booker T. Washington - Founder of Tuskegee Institute

·  John Witherspoon - President of Princeton University

Performing Artists

·  Louis Armstrong - king of jazz

·  Charlie Chaplin - actor

·  Whoopi Goldberg - actress

·  Hanson - sibling singing group

·  Jennifer Love Hewitt - actress

·  Yehudi Menuhin - child prodigy violinist

·  Moffatts - Canadian version of Hanson

·  Frankie Muniz - child actor

·  LeAnne Rimes - teen-prodigy country music singer

·  Barlow Girl - Alyssa, Rebecca, and Lauren Contemporary Christian Music

·  Jonas Brothers - Kevin, Joe, and Nick Performers

·  Jacob Clemente - Broadway Actor  
 

Business Entrepreneurs

·  Andrew Carnegie - wealthy steel industrialist

·  Amadeo Giannini - Bank of America’s founder

·  Horace Greeley - New York Tribune founder

·  Soichiro Honda - creator of the Honda automobile company

·  Peter Kindersley - book illustrator and publisher

·  Ray Kroc - founder of McDonald's fast food restaurant chain

·  Jimmy Lai - newspaper publisher; founder of Giordano International

·  Dr. Orison Swett Marden - founder, Success magazine

·  Adolph Ochs - New York Times founder

·  Joseph Pulitzer - newspaper publisher; established Pulitzer Prize

·  Colonel Harland Sanders - started Kentucky Fried Chicken

·  Dave Thomas - founder of the Wendy’s restaurant chain

·  Mariah Witcher - founder of Mariahs Famous Cookies

·  Daniel Mills - founder of Salem Ridge Press

 

Others

·  Abigail Adams - Wife of John Adams; mother of John Quincy Adams

·  Ansel Adams - Photographer

·  Susan B. Anthony - reformer and women’s rights leader

·  John James Audubon - ornithologist and artist

·  Clara Barton - Started the Red Cross

·  Elizabeth Blackwell - first woman in the U.S. to receive a medical degree

 

[Worriedman]

 The parking lot bill has my hopes up, though.

 

You can get over that, Beth has decided that she is not going to allow it, regardless of what Ramsey wanted to do. She has the Governor's ear so that is a done deal.  Can not let Maggart getting tossed allow the bill to proceed.

[m16ty]

Some teachers should be allowed to carry. I'm sure there are several at each school that would take on the responsiblity. Require them to take some extra training and pay them a little more.

 

SROs do help but they aren't the complete answer. If somebody goes in to shoot up a school, the SRO is going to be the first one to get shot if they can. Another fact is the government is pretty well broke on all levels. One SRO per school isn't going to do it and it's going to cost a pile of money to put several SROs in each and every school.

 

There's really no way to make a school 100% safe. Look at prisons. The inmates are under constant surveillance and have gaurds everywhere. They routinely have assaults, rapes, and killings. They also have (make) all kinds of weapons.

[Mousegun]

When I discuss this subject with others, they ask.  "Has it come to this that teachers should be armed" and I simply say yes it has and as soon as more people recognize that fact, something may then get done.

 

Arm the teachers that WANT to be armed.  Give them tactical training.  If a bad guy comes in the north end of the school and the SRO is at the south end, that will do no good what so ever.  If a bad guy comes into a classroom, let him deal with an armed teacher that is right there on the scene to protect his or her classroom and most likely those around them.

[enfield]

If I were a teacher, and could legally carry, I would.  BUT, I wouldn't reasonably expect a teacher to carry a handgun and defend other people with it, for many reasons - interest, mindset, training, liability.  I woudn't volunteer to protect others, outside of my family.  I may protect others, but I don't want the obligation.

 

I think it's much more reasonable to establish a security office within each school district and/or county, staffed with sworn, armed security guards (possibly attached to the local police or sheriff's office), trained just like the LEO's, equipped just like the LEO's, with the same legal protections.  Assign one or more guards to each school as required.  Totally locally controlled, no federal government, no state government involvement.  Funded by the taxpayers (who pay for everything anyway).

[JayC]

Except statistics don't seem to back up your thoughts on an SRO being safer and 'better trained', than your average citizen.  And while they may receive more training than your average citizen, the effectiveness of that training is suspect at best.

 

Police Officers are 5 times more likely to kill an innocent person in a justified shooting over 'untrained' citizens, 11% vs 2%.

 

Police Officers are significantly more likely to be convicted of a crime per capita than teachers, or even the population as a whole, much much higher than your average CC permit holder.

 

Further a single SRO is a very limited resource, where as arming teachers and CC permitted parents gives you much better coverage in the case of an attack vs a single "well trained" police officer.

 

I'd much rather have 20 adults carrying in a school, than 1 SRO, and it would be safer for the children.

 

I have no problem with qualified teachers being selected and armed.  But my personal preference would be to see armed SRO's in all schools for two reasons.

 

One, they are better trained than the average teacher would ever be (short of a combat veteran or an ex-police officer). I currently only know one teacher that I think would be qualified enough to be armed at a school.

 

Two. I think it's great for children to learn that they can trust a police officer.  You would be surprised how well children get to know the support staff at school and that includes SROs.  I do think SRO's need additional training above your average patrol officer on how to interact with children in a school environment.  I think that's a different situation than being on the street.

 

Currently I know several teachers and I only consider one of them qualified to be armed.  He is also one of the best shots I know with either a pistol or rifle and a veteran.  I quizzed my High School Senior about which teacher she thought would be qualified to be armed at her school and she said there was only one that she thought was qualified to carry a firearm, and he is a also a veteran,

 

 

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Just the knowledge that the gun free zone didn't exist would do volumes. Let a teacher or someone else in the schools volunteer

and get rid of the gun free zone. Anyone capable of returning fire would stop the threat. These perps kill themselves every time,

or give up so fast, once resistance is there, and it wouldn't cost a dime.

[enfield]

And, if no one volunteers?  What if the teacher just wants to be a teacher and not an armed guard?  What if the armed teacher decides not to engage the shooter, trusting that someone else will?

 

A conspicuous, uniformed, armed security guard (job description "Guard", not 'Teacher") in a school fills the need much better than a volunteer teacher, in my opinion.