4473s Being Copied?

[Guest TNSovereignty]

I've read several reports from our gun lobbyists (whom I support) about F-troopers descending on FFL holders & copying the 4473 paperwork.  That would be illegal, but legality has never stopped the ATF.  I don't know many FFL holders in my area ... can anyone speak to the issue?  Would be interested to know if 4473 copying is a rampant problem, localized to areas with gang violence, happening all over the place all the time, etc.   

 

Tough issue ... I want to support local gun businesses & FFLs but sure want to avoid that paperwork trail.  

[TMF]

I've read several reports from our gun lobbyists (whom I support) about F-troopers descending on FFL holders & copying the 4473 paperwork.  That would be illegal, but legality has never stopped the ATF.  I don't know many FFL holders in my area ... can anyone speak to the issue?  Would be interested to know if 4473 copying is a rampant problem, localized to areas with gang violence, happening all over the place all the time, etc.   

 

Tough issue ... I want to support local gun businesses & FFLs but sure want to avoid that paperwork trail.  

 

Seems like that is normal if they are investigating a crime.  I don't worry too much in regards to paper trail for, say, a database.  Think about how many FFLs one gun dealer has on file.  It would nuke an ATF agents entire week to copy documents from just one place, let alone comb through the data to create a data base.  It would be an impossible task.

[Guest CCI]

Seems like that is normal if they are investigating a crime.  I don't worry too much in regards to paper trail for, say, a database.  Think about how many FFLs one gun dealer has on file.  It would nuke an ATF agents entire week to copy documents from just one place, let alone comb through the data to create a data base.  It would be an impossible task.

In California,  you fill out the 4473 on a in gun store/shop computer! It would take no time at all to print copies!

[Garufa]

In California,  you fill out the 4473 on a in gun store/shop computer! It would take no time at all to print copies!

 

That is becoming more common in TN.

[K191145]

It's been a few years since I filled out a 4473, alot of my purchases were a money transaction and a handshake.  :)

[.357SIG]

Although I wouldn't put it past them to do so, I doubt the ATF would be so blatant as to go to the gun stores to make copies of them this early in the game. It would be much more efficient and less obvious to have their pencil pushers back at the office make copies as they are sent in for approval. With all of the gun stores, pawn shops, etc. throughout the U.S. they would just be spinning their wheels if they were to try and go to each storefront. They can't even keep up with current NFA applications, much less try to accomplish a task of this magnitude. JMHO

[Guest TNSovereignty]

What I'm getting from the GOA is that the ATF is absolutely/manifestly going to FFLs & illegally making copies of 4473s.  I take them at their word but also tend to 'trust, but verify.'  

 

 

Although I wouldn't put it past them to do so, I doubt the ATF would be so blatant as to go to the gun stores to make copies of them this early in the game. 

The preface to your doubt is the one I'm focusing on ... I don't put ANY illegality past the F-troopers.  They'll go to any means to garner 'evidence' & get convictions ... that's how they grow their budget & bureaucracy.  

 

It's been a few years since I filled out a 4473, alot of my purchases were a money transaction and a handshake.  :)

Concur ... and I'm thinking this is the safest bet, albeit at the expense of supporting local businesses.  I'd hate to be an FFL guy in this climate.  Damned if you get the paperwork filled out & put your customer at future gun-grab risk, damned if you don't & go to jail.  

[Glenn]

If these are standardized forms, it would not be a big deal to scan and turn them into digital files automatically.

[Guest Frightful1]

I worked part time for a LGS up north for several years.  We had LEA's come in regularly to view a particular 4473, or inquire if a certain S/N gun had been sold in our store.  As far as copying the paperwork, it was the owners opinion that they had to come with a supeona specifying the specific device.  They never had a problem with that.  However, the times they are a-changing!

[.357SIG]

The preface to your doubt is the one I'm focusing on ... I don't put ANY illegality past the F-troopers.  They'll go to any means to garner 'evidence' & get convictions ... that's how they grow their budget & bureaucracy.  

 

I definitely don't trust them by any means. I was just trying to point out that they are going about it in as inefficient and obvious way as possible. How many thousands of guns are sold per day and they expect to stay on top of that? With the manpower they have they are failing their current responsibilities, much less take this on as well.

 

But, since when is government expected to be efficient and use common sense.............

[JayC]

That is becoming more common in TN.

 

They don't store the 4473's on computer here, it's still a physical bit of paper...  they submit the TICS background check via computer in many cases.

[JayC]

If these are standardized forms, it would not be a big deal to scan and turn them into digital files automatically.

 

Except there is a federal law prohibiting that ;)  Congress wisely has limited the ATF to having to work with paper alone when it comes to 4473, no computerized databases.

[joustin]

At Gander the computer generates a PDF that isn't saved.

[JayC]

Well I wouldn't do any business with Gander then, since those pdf files can be recovered from that computer years down the road...  And since your 4473 probably has your SSN on it, my guess is you can't be sure they are properly wiping that hard drive before getting rid of the computer.

 

At Gander the computer generates a PDF that isn't saved.

[RED333]

Till ya read this

http://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2013/gun-policy-summit-recommendations.html

Trafficking and Dealer Licensing

• A permanent director for the ATF should be appointed and confirmed.
• ATF should be required to provide adequate resources to inspect and otherwise engage in oversight of federally licensed gun dealers.
• Restrictions imposed under the Firearm Owners Protections Act limiting ATF to one routine inspection of gun dealers per year should be repealed.

[Guest TNSovereignty]

This is verbatim from a GOA announcement received today ... would be interesting to hear from some TN FFL holders on any of their experiences.  

 

 

Our legislative counsel drafted the Smith amendment in 1998 to prohibit the FBI from using the Brady Check system to tax gun buyers or put their names into a gun registry.  But the FBI refuses to tell us -- or even to tell U.S. Senators -- how (or whether) it is complying with the Smith amendment.  Why in the world should we give the FBI more authority and more names if it abuses the authority it already has?

 

This is the inherent problem with any background check, where gun buyers’ names are given to a government bureaucrat.  Is there any way to make sure that once a name is entered into a computer, that it doesn’t stay there permanently?

 

This concern is especially valid, considering how federal agents are already skirting the laws against gun owner registration.  Several dealers around the country have informed GOA that the ATF is increasingly going into gun shops and just xeroxing all of the 4473's, giving them the names of every gun owner who purchased a gun through that shop -- and setting up the basis for a national registration system. 

 

This is illegal under the 1986 McClure-Volkmer law, but that has apparently not stopped it from being done.  If every gun in America has to go through a dealer, this will create a mechanism to compile a list of every gun owner in America.  And, as we have seen with New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, who has just been legislatively handed such a list, when that happens, the talk immediately turns to “confiscation."

[Guest TNSovereignty]

Except there is a federal law prohibiting that ;)  Congress wisely has limited the ATF to having to work with paper alone when it comes to 4473, no computerized databases.

 

Are you joking?  A federal law that constrains the ATF?  Do you have any shivers of doubt about that statement?  Lucky for you, you apparently have never worked within the Federal & DC bureaucracy ... I've seen it firsthand.  When I see a federal law 'prohibiting' a government agency I am absolutely assured that those agency lawyers have figured out a workaround loophole.  The Executive Branch is power run amok & Congress is AWOL on this issue.

 

At Gander the computer generates a PDF that isn't saved.

 

With due respect, you guys have to get smart on computer privacy.  Everyone on this site should learn how to encrypt computer files & salvage some element of privacy.  

[jtmaze]

you guys are exactly right. I am not an IT guy, but was raised by a father who was/ is amd I am almost willing to bet that if I wanted I could sit down in front of the Average Homeowners computer and find out almost anything I wanted to know. AND I DON'T REALLY CONSIDER MYSELF ANYGOOD AT THAT SORT OF THING!!!!!! My dad is actually incredible. I am good at manual virus removal but can can get to your deepest and darkest secrets that you deleted when you first purchased the computer.

Edited January 18, 2013 by jtmaze