Closing Gunshow Loopholes/Private Sales [Poll Within]

[Oh Shoot]

It seems to me, that if a gun sale is between two Tennessee residents, the federal government should have no jurisdiction of that sale since no state lines were crossed.

Tennessee state laws should be the only ones relevent.

 

Won't stand constitutional muster under Commerce Clause, as guns pass into the states through interstate commerce. Just the possibility that any given one does will probably be justification enough to survival a challenge.

 

Hell, they just made you buy insurance, ya know? Making you undergo, or even buy,  a background check will be duck soup.

 

- OS

[Mark@Sea]

Last time I saw a figure on this, less than 2% of armed criminals got their guns at gunshows.  The overwhelming majority stole them.  The others had a 'clean' friend buy them.

 

  This is registration, nothing more.

[BryanP]

While I'm not in favor of this idea, I can see how they would do it. From what I understand, it's illegal to conduct a private (off the books) firearms transaction on an FFL's property. If some guy comes in and wants to sell his gun to JoeSchmoe's Gun Shop and you're standing there you can't legally offer to buy it from him on the spot. (I've read this before but can't find the relevant rule right now - I'm sure someone will come along and confirm this or refute it) All they have to do is make it so that this rule applies in the presence of FFL's set up at a gun show. Boom. No more private transactions at gun shows, but individual to individual sales are still legal. Edited January 15, 2013 by BryanP

[1gewehr]

No, no, and no.  Since when do you need Federal permission to sell your own property?  This proposal would have absolutely no effect on crime, except to create new criminals when fol;ks get busted for violating a stupid law.

 

There is no law against private sales on FFL property.  Most FFLs have a policy of this as they want first crack at making any deals.  It's their property, they can make the rules. 

[G27]

No, simply because it would have to include full firearms registration to work.

[Mark@Sea]

I'll bet you a hundred it covers all private sales.

 

Sale goes through the NICS system.  It is retained (by law) for 24 hours.  Backups are made every night, the backups are retained permanently.

They are running their own illegal registration system now, but it is far from perfect.  This just helps perfect it.

 

It will have no impact on crime.

[BryanP]

There is no law against private sales on FFL property.  Most FFLs have a policy of this as they want first crack at making any deals.  It's their property, they can make the rules. 

Wouldn't be the first time I've been misinformed.

[Oh Shoot]

I'll bet you a hundred it covers all private sales.

 

Of course it will, it's already been stated over and over. "Gun Show Loophole" has only become a euphemism.

 

15 states already have partial or total ban on private sales. It's not like it's some alien concept. Polls today showing 85% for it, hell 65% of NRA members poll that way.

 

- OS

[Smith]

In a completely neutral scenario I don't have a problem with the idea. However, in the context of the current situation it is a bad idea. The anti's will use this as a stepping stone and that is the real danger in it. 

Edited January 15, 2013 by Smith

[Jonnin]

From what I know, which isnt much, I would say about 3/4 of transactions happen AT an FFL.  Gun people like to meet up at gun shops to swap gear, for whatever reasons.  They often go inside and buy a little, even just a box of ammo, to support the business they "used" for this.   I include gun shows in this as there are FFLs all over at the shows as well as police. 

 

2% of crime is a lot of crime, by the way. 

[Grand Torino]

No for all the reasons mentioned. It still doesn't fix the problem of crazy people/bad guys getting guns and doing hidious acts. How about giving someone a manditory 30 year prison sentence eithout parol for using a firearm in an illegal act as a starting point and go right to a death sentence from there.

[JWC]

I think it'd be utterly ridiculous to think I had to go through an ffl to sell a gun to say my cousin who is a member of TGO, or if I bought a rifle from my uncle, or my best friend. Fact is there ain't no way I would. and I would be committing a crime? That oughta keep our streets safe.

[Peace]

Every action is subject to have unintented consequences. It is quite possible that if person to person firearm sales are outlawed, person from person gun thefts may skyrocket. Most people who own firearms keep most of them in their homes. Way to keep our kids safe, C.I.C! I really wish people would quit listening to fuzzy, emotionally manipulative drivel from ...., but they won't quit listening, we are all wired to hear, think, and react emotionally.... Even us. It is time that we learn athng or two from those who oppose freedom and work about this issue with all of our heart, might, AND intelligence. Peace to all of you!

[JWC]

[quote name="Grand Torino" post="885586" timestamp="1358262081"]No for all the reasons mentioned. It still doesn't fix the problem of crazy people/bad guys getting guns and doing hidious acts. How about giving someone a manditory 30 year prison sentence eithout parol for using a firearm in an illegal act as a starting point and go right to a death sentence from there.[/quote][quote name="Grand Torino" post="885586" timestamp="1358262081"]No for all the reasons mentioned. It still doesn't fix the problem of crazy people/bad guys getting guns and doing hidious acts. How about giving someone a manditory 30 year prison sentence eithout parol for using a firearm in an illegal act as a starting point and go right to a death sentence from there.[/quote] And include robbery/theft of a firearm from a lawful owner

[battleop]

I would be all for it under the condition that the government pays 100% of the fee.  That is it, period.  

 

If the government pays the fee then it's not free.

 

 

You can close the gun show loophole which is really just going to effect stranger to stranger sales.  It's not going to do much for friend to friend, family member to family member, or criminal to criminal transfers. 

[Jonnin]

I think it'd be utterly ridiculous to think I had to go through an ffl to sell a gun to say my cousin who is a member of TGO, or if I bought a rifle from my uncle, or my best friend. Fact is there ain't no way I would. and I would be committing a crime? That oughta keep our streets safe.

it is dumb, but you or your relative  would have to go thru as many or more hoops if you sold your relative a piece of property, or a car. 

 

 

The gun +crime = major jail time would have to exempt some stuff, though.   I would not care to see someone in jail or executed for speeding with a gun, for example.  I know that is not what you meant, but whatever words to excuse minor offenses where the gun was not drawn but present should be in there.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Jonnin

[Oh Shoot]

No for all the reasons mentioned. It still doesn't fix the problem of crazy people/bad guys getting guns and doing hidious acts. ...

 

All of the mass killings that I know about over last years,  none of the firearms used were illegally sold/bought, from Columbine, VA Tech, Ft. Hood, Tucson, Aurora, Sandy Hook.

 

Ending private sales doesn't prevent unauthorized friends or family or thieves getting hold of them either. So no, it certainly does not do one damn thing about preventing mass killings as far as I can surmise.

 

Whether it can have an effect on overall "gun crime" is doubtful, too. Fun with statistics. For example, how can anyone even reliably estimate that "40% of firearm sales are done privately"? Where are all these re-sold guns coming from that were never sold through FFLs in the first place?

 

- OS

Edited January 15, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[mcurrier]

Of course it will, it's already been stated over and over. "Gun Show Loophole" has only become a euphemism.

 

15 states already have partial or total ban on private sales. It's not like it's some alien concept. Polls today showing 85% for it, hell 65% of NRA members poll that way.

 

- OS

 

Yes, let's stop using the language of the left please.  It does not help our cause to agree with them or even sound as if we are agreeing with them by using their words.

[mikegideon]

To me, it wouldn't be a real big deal as long as there was no registration attached. I don't know if background checks prevent any crime. I DO know that having to go through 15 or 20 in the same year is totally retarded, especially if you hold a permit.

 

The "loophole" is in places like Chicago, where straw purchasers really do operate. You can buy a trunkload of guns right ouside the city, and then sell them in the city to anyone that has the cash. Gun bans don't work well anyway. Add private sales, and they don't work at all. That's what the anti's are targeting.

 

Gun owners and anti's could probably come to terms on the issue, but the anti's just can't be trusted.

 

The only positive I can see... it will eliminate their most effective talking point. I think it has some of the support from gun owners just so they never have to hear it again.

 

I voted no, but as OS said, it will probably pass anyway.

[klamb5]

Be nice if there was a way to run ck privately and for free to give a add layer of assurance if a person doesnt have a permit, add I might add with no gun or s/n attached just fast back ground.

Edited January 15, 2013 by klamb5

[JWC]

[quote name="Jonnin" post="885603" timestamp="1358263223"]it is dumb, but you or your relative  would have to go thru as many or more hoops if you sold your relative a piece of property, or a car.      The gun +crime = major jail time would have to exempt some stuff, though.   I would not care to see someone in jail or executed for speeding with a gun, for example.  I know that is not what you meant, but whatever words to excuse minor offenses where the gun was not drawn but present should be in there.[/quote] I could see for property but if someone will bring me green money I will sign the title of any of my vehicles over to them on the spot with no background. Not too much hoop jumping. I know what you mean though. On the other I was implying the need to really come down hard on dirty, disgusting thrives that steal lawfully owned guns. Instead of just treating it the same as stealing a TV.

[BryanP]

There is no law against private sales on FFL property.  Most FFLs have a policy of this as they want first crack at making any deals.  It's their property, they can make the rules. 

After double checking, I've now had an FFL (I won't name him, he's not local to this state) tell me that it is a violation of the regulations he has to live with as an FFL. Apparently a firearm transfer inside the boundaries of the registered-with-the-BATFE business premises that escapes the FFL holder's bound book is verboten.

Any FFL holders here want to chime in?

[hipower]

In Criminology we learned of the "Balloon Effect" in reference to anti-crime efforts. Take a balloon that is half full of air and push your finger into it. What happens? The balloon will sink in around your finger but rise everywhere else. Those that study crime trends have proven this over and over. Focus on efforts on burglaries and robberies will go up, etc.

If we close the loophole the not-so-nice people will still get their hands on guns- by breaking into homes, stores, cars, etc, and taking them.

 

Simply put...this would have no effect but to withold my right to sell my private property and allow the BATFE to completely have access to all purchases and transfers. Not saying that isn't most likely the case now, but this will not deter a criminal, will not do anything but restrict us as individuals.

 

Just may opinion.

Edited January 15, 2013 by hipower

[Jonnin]

All of the mass killings that I know about over last years,  none of the firearms used were illegally sold/bought, from Columbine, VA Tech, Ft. Hood, Tucson, Aurora, Sandy Hook.

 

Ending private sales doesn't prevent unauthorized friends or family or thieves getting hold of them either. So no, it certainly does not do one damn thing about preventing mass killings as far as I can surmise.

 

Whether it can have an effect on overall "gun crime" is doubtful, too. Fun with statistics. For example, how can anyone even reliably estimate that "40% of firearm sales are done privately"? Where are all these re-sold guns coming from that were never sold through FFLs in the first place?

 

- OS

The idiot that shot those firemen got his via a straw purchase, from a family member.  That is the only illegal sales one I can recall.

[Mark@Sea]

The Columbine shooters got theirs from a female friend - another straw purchase.