Two on trial for selling guns without a license

[Oh Shoot]

That's funny. Norm is 25-50. Quite a range. Must not be much in a law to back that up. Probably a law with no guidelines that the ATF

decides whatever number they want to prosecute with....

 

No, number of firearms doesn't really apply, and is as we already know plenty vague enough for leeway on their part but not so much yours if charged.

 

I believe this would be the pertinent part from USC 18, 921, Definitions:

 

"The term “engaged in the business” means—
 

(for selling):

 

as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

 

(for gunsmithing):

 

as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)( b ) a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;"

 

- OS

Edited January 13, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[bvarnell]

What really turned up the heat on these 4 clowns (2 have already pled guilty) was them selling a gun or 2 to the escaped felon from Colorado who shot and killed Sgt. Tim Chapin of CPD.
At least one of them was warned to get an FFL more than once.
They are also reported to be buying from pawn shops and reselling. I'd bet that those purchases were "off the books". Someone sells a gun to a pawn shop, he calls these guys who come buy it before it gets recorded.

[DaveTN]

What really turned up the heat on these 4 clowns (2 have already pled guilty) was them selling a gun or 2 to the escaped felon from Colorado who shot and killed Sgt. Tim Chapin of CPD.

I figured something like that happened when I read it.

They are also reported to be buying from pawn shops and reselling. I'd bet that those purchases were "off the books". Someone sells a gun to a pawn shop, he calls these guys who come buy it before it gets recorded.

If that is the case some pawn shops will be losing their FFL’s and face criminal charges.

[Patton]

No that is how Dawson got the light that was already on him cranked up to full wattage. The gun used to kill the Sgt was bought on a 4473 only 45 days prior by Dawson at a pawn shop.
I was told by a ATF agent the intent to make a profit is what really makes it a crime. Felons with firearms and NFA items are what the ATF really focus on but sometimes without even trying these guys fall in their laps.
All four of these guys were idiots, Dawson the biggest.

[jaysouth]

I once had this discussion with a BATFE supervisor.  According to him if you buy one gun with the express intent of selling it and making a profit, you need a license to do so.

 

If you have collected a thousand guns over a lifetime and  start to dispose of them in your old age, that's OK.  Caviat:  Good documentation needed.

 

If the BATFE was a bad as some think, they could arrest dozens of folks at every gun show held.  I have seen 'door hawks' buy guns and resell them without moving 20 feet.  If I can spot em', the BATFE should have a no brainer arrest.

[dralarms]

Well, not guilty on all charges but 1, Carl Monroe guilty on selling to a felon.

[Jonnin]

Like almost everything out of the BAFTE, it is totally unclear by design.   You are talking about an agency that cannot define a handgun well enough that the police can tell a pistol and a rifle apart.   You are talking about an agency that can make bolting an accessory onto a gun a major crime.  

 

By that wording, someone that cleaned out the walmart guns, set up a booth, sold them at 2x the price at a show, and never did it again, but sold 50 in one day, is fine --- its not their buisness or an ongoing thing, it was a one time opportunity.   Conversely the guy that has bought 20 crates of mosins over 10 years and decides to sell em all, one by one could end up in jail because he sold a lot over months.....   it is 100% "subjective" and "selective enforcement".     I honsetly think the police went out of their way to bust the guy that sold the gun that killed the LEO, and turn a blind eye to others who are doing the same things....   that is NOT right.  I am ok with a crackdown and busting the folks that do this, fine.  But to pick and choose who to prosecute.... is garbage.

[frankmako]

Well, not guilty on all charges but 1, Carl Monroe guilty on selling to a felon.

 

shows you what type of case the government had. 

[Patton]

  I honsetly think the police went out of their way to bust the guy that sold the gun that killed the LEO, and turn a blind eye to others who are doing the same things....   that is NOT right.  I am ok with a crackdown and busting the folks that do this, fine.  But to pick and choose who to prosecute.... is garbage.

I strongly disagree. We a ll know he bought and intentionally resold to make a profit but he went over the line when he knowingly bought with intent to resale a class 3 item. That was after the BATF disclosing that they were the BATF, and that he needed to obtain a FFL because of his frequent gun transactions. Dawson really screwed himself when he gave false written statements and then gave false financial disclosure to the IRS.

[DaveTN]

Well, not guilty on all charges but 1, Carl Monroe guilty on selling to a felon.

 
 

shows you what type of case the government had. 

Two defendants already pled guilty for a deal. Three out four people headed for prison; sounds like they had a pretty good case, doesn’t it?

[Jonnin]

I strongly disagree. We a ll know he bought and intentionally resold to make a profit but he went over the line when he knowingly bought with intent to resale a class 3 item. That was after the BATF disclosing that they were the BATF, and that he needed to obtain a FFL because of his frequent gun transactions. Dawson really screwed himself when he gave false written statements and then gave false financial disclosure to the IRS.

 

but why was the bafte pointed at him for a sting in the first place?   I do not disagree the guy is a crook and I am glad he got busted.  It just seems like he was targeted, to me, and that not too long after the incident.  It is almost as if they knew about him before, but let it slide.   Something about the whole case seems off to me, I can't put my finger on it  --- the best I can come up with on paper is "what a concidence that the one guy that got caught happened to be the one that sold that particular gun".    Which, of course, is easily countered by the epic stupidity of the perps --- if someone is going to get caught,  it would be the dumbest, most blatent one....  

 

I dunno.  But I would see a lot more of these arrests if the cops and IRS and bafte know who they are.  It just builds a case against gun shows and supports the gun control idiots.

[Guest RevScottie]

No that is how Dawson got the light that was already on him cranked up to full wattage. The gun used to kill the Sgt was bought on a 4473 only 45 days prior by Dawson at a pawn shop.
I was told by a ATF agent the intent to make a profit is what really makes it a crime. Felons with firearms and NFA items are what the ATF really focus on but sometimes without even trying these guys fall in their laps.
All four of these guys were idiots, Dawson the biggest.

 

Are you sure about those facts? The official Department of Justice summary of the case says the gun used to kill the Sgt was one of the ones that Jesse Mathews stole from a Colorado Pawn shop. He did trade with Dawson but it is my understanding that that particular gun was not used.

[Jonnin]

not sure which gun was which.  He had several on him when arrested and had traded for some at the show.  I would trust the official document, then. 

[Patton]

Are you sure about those facts? The official Department of Justice summary of the case says the gun used to kill the Sgt was one of the ones that Jesse Mathews stole from a Colorado Pawn shop. He did trade with Dawson but it is my understanding that that particular gun was not used.

It may have been in the trunk. Regardless Dawson bought a gun on a 4473 that he sold to a felon, in a attempt to gain profit. This is what got the crap against Dawson rolling. Then he was stupid enough to keep doing it after the BATF interviewed him and then he was the target of undercover buys. Dawson bragged about making hundreds of dollars a week selling guns out of his trunk.

[frankmako]

 
 Two defendants already pled guilty for a deal. Three out four people headed for prison; sounds like they had a pretty good case, doesn’t it?

 

At this time we don't know if they will get any time.  The sentencing hearing will be later, sometime in March and  April.  Some federal charges do not score high on the sentencing levels guide lines.  In federal court lots of people will pled guilty to a lower charge to get less time or no time in jail.  Sometime these lower charges don't carry much time in jail or any time in jail.  It is all up to the judge in what they get per the sentencing guide lines.  The guide lines will have a high to low range.   The judge will look at the facts for each person and sentence them somewhere in the federal guide lines range for the count(s) found guility and/or count(s) pled to.   A good case is one that the jury comes back with guilty on all counts.  

[Oh Shoot]

....   You are talking about an agency that can make bolting an accessory onto a gun a major crime.

 

Doesn't even have to necessarily be attached.

 

"an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA
firearm"

 

- OS

[roninnashville]

As there are more than 20,000 gun laws in this country you are just about certain to break one you do not know about when you buy, sell, or whatever. 

[TGO David]

BATF can also pound sand.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you've never dealt with the BATF directly.  Because had you actually done so, you'd know that we've actually got some of the most professional, courteous agents assigned as NFA examiners for Tennessee.

 

However, you're correct in a way.  If you're caught doing something illegal they can most certainly pound sand.  You're just not going to like what they pound it up.