State suspends gun carry permit for James Yeager

[DaveTN]

I took some heat from a few members on here when I said you can’t start threatening to shoot people. Now it has happened and some think it’s funny and he got what he deserved. I’m not laughing.

I don’t like Yeager. He’s arrogant and if he was the badazz he claims to be he would not have had all the bad internet banter about what he did years ago. Maybe he thinks he has since become a badazz; I don’t know.

But when this came up at work today I said what he said did not rise to the level of a criminal act; the elements of crime are not there. He was mad and he did something stupid. I saw red when I read about what Obama and Biden were threatening to do; it made my blood pressure rise. But I didn’t post anything stupid.

This is exactly what I think the government means when they say they want more in-depth background checks. I think they want to be able to put people on a list that won’t allow them to buy guns. It has to be what they mean because they can already stop them if they have been convicted of crimes.

I think this makes it clear that if you say stupid stuff; they can pull your HCP. I have never heard Yeager make threats before, I have heard him say plenty of stupid stuff. Is he mental enough to have his permit pulled? Well, as has been pointed out if he started shooting people the state would have without a doubt been sued if they failed to act.
If they start pulling peoples permits for what they perceive as threats there are some people here that will be losing theirs when DHS or DOS start pouring over these threads. So much for freedom of speech.

I thought that Yeager would be apologetic, humble and try to clear the air. I was wrong. By saying “If someone comes to take my guns I will shoot them” and “You’re right and I hope they are paying attention” he has made himself the poster boy for suspending HCP’s and potentially for being banned on a background check. He wants that roll so we will see where it goes, he has decided to bang heads with Obama and Biden; they will try to make an example of him.

They can pull any licensees he has and kill his business. I have to assume he thought about that…. But maybe not. I have said and done stupid things that I knew were bad as soon as I said or did them. Reading what Obama and Biden are saying can make people make stupid threats.

I wish this hadn’t happened.

[JayC]

Wow, dude... sometimes I think you're completely blinded by Lady Liberty's knickers or something.  This is really simple:

 

• Tennessee issues Handgun Carry Permits which authorizes citizens to go armed in public.
• James Yeager has one of such permits issued by the state.
• He makes a threat that he's going to start killing people.

 

Yes, blinded by that thing called current case law ;)

 

He makes a video with some heated language in it, from my layperson understanding it does not rise to the level of criminal activity under state law.  So unless the speech is illegal, then by it's very nature it's protected speech, right?

 

SCOTUS has repeatedly ruled that governments can not cause a 'chilling effect' on protected speech by using it as the reason to deny a person a right or privilege.  That seems to be exactly what TDOS did in this case does it not?

 

Again, my big issue here is with a bad law that grants too much authority within TDOS to revoke permits before due process of law.  In every other case where a permit can be denied or revoked, an independent judge and/or jury must hear the evidence, and make a ruling...  The is the only example where an un-elected bureaucrat can say "you're permit is revoked because I said so".

 

So, lets play what if...  lets say Yeager gets a judge to rule this action unlawful, what happens to said bureaucrat?  Do they go to jail?  Do they loose their job?  Nope, they have nothing to loose by making this call...  No skin in the game...  The law is too easy to be abused, and needs to be changed.  At the very least there needs to be criminal penalties (at least a felony conviction with 5 years in prison) for a TDOS employee who revokes a permit then is later found not to have met the material threat threshold.  I know, very radical wanting there to be prison time for somebody who breaks the law :)

 

For the record, I don't agree with Yeager's speech in the video, I just don't think TDOS should have the ability to revoke permits over protected speech, and IMHO it appears to have been politically motivated more so than a real threat to the public at large.

 

It's a huge negative effect on all permit holders...  What happens if you make a video with legally protected speech that somebody at TDOS doesn't like?  They can just revoke your permit on a whim?  Because that appears to have just happened...  at least with Kwik (which I'm sure you remember I also complained about) he was walking around protesting with loaded firearms...  Here you have a guy talking to a video camera.

 

BTW, I'm not a Yeager fanboy, I had a chance to go to one of his classes a couple of years ago (for free) and turned it down because I think he's a grade a jerk...  I just have a problem giving TDOS so much power.

[Hi Point Hooligan]

Yea, but what if he posted a video that looked like this.

 

http://youtu.be/nSQQaRw-yU0

[Guest mikedwood]

My perspective is a paradox.

 

I believe our rights are absolute but...

 

I also believe with rights come responsibilities but...

 

If you have to have a license or pay a tax on it's a privilage.

 

The main thing to take from this is how well youtube and facebook and the like work as monitoring platforms.

 

flipping channels and CNN is on the attack atm.

Edited January 12, 2013 by mikedwood

[TMF]

I dunno, calling folks to arms then ending with "if they move another inch I'm gonna start killing people" SHOULD put you on the radar. No direct threats were made at anyone specifically, so I don't think he'll be charged with any crime, but getting your HCP suspended is a different story. This is different than saying "if Jennifer Lopez makes another movie I'm going to figuratively start killing people." Yeager meant what he was saying in the very literal sense, although I don't believe he has the stones to back up his threats.... he is, after all, a pants wetting coward.

[williamsburg]

http://www.wsmv.com/story/20559778/tn-firearms-instructor-gains-attention-from-youtube-rant?autoStart=true

[Guest drifter]

As I see it there are 2 issues here, whether or not his speech was protected by the 1st amendment, and whether or not TN should have revoked his carry permit.

 

First there are limitations to the 1st amendment, and threatening to kill people in the way he did is probably not protected by the 1st.  Google "fighting words", "incitement", "inflammatory speech", "imminent lawless action", "clear and present danger" etc and read up.

Second, like it or not TN can pull your carry permit if they think you might be a danger.  After watching his video I'd tend to agree with their assessment as he does not come off as a clearheaded responsible permit holder.

 

I've always thought he was screwy btw.  He's the kind of nut that gives us gun owners bad reps imho.

[Worriedman]

Oh for sure, it happened too quick not to have come down from Bill,

- OS

I would suspect that Bill is Gibbons.  I had the opportunity to interview him on two occasions during his run for the Governors position, he strikes me a one who cares not one whit for the average Joe having the ability to keep and bear arms.  Much more of a elitist who thinks he has better developed ability to decide who should be armed and who should not.  

 

Always found it curious that he pulled up the tent stakes without so much as a whimper when he quit, (he did not give me the impression he was one to give up easily, or EVER) yet found that job right off after the issue was settled as to who was housed in the Governor's mansion.

[c.a.willard]

In my opinion Yeager is an asshat.  He got exactly what he deserved, his words demonstrated a clear threat to public safety.  The fact that people continue to seek out training from this man amazes me.  There are any number of equally or more qualified trainers out there who not only have the credentials but the professionalism i would expect. 

Edited January 12, 2013 by c.a.willard

[gregintenn]

All things being equal, do you believe that this video would have gotten this kind of attention pre Sandy Hook? Would his permit still have been pulled?

[MacGyver]

There's another point here that we shouldn't lose sight of. You fight in two courts - a court of law and a court of public opinion. James may have a case to eventually get his HCP back. If he wants, he can retain counsel and argue his case. With good counsel, as our law is written, he might win.

But, in the court of public opinion, he's a gun grabber's wet dream. I have no doubt that Feinstein, the Brady Center and Bloomberg were absolutely giggly watching this. Because when you put this on the news, it sways opinion. The sheep will look at James carrying on angrily, not making eye contact and scratching at himself like he's strung out, yet threatening to kill people and they'll be swayed. Where they might have been on the fence not particularly caring either way, they'll watch the video and say to themselves, "I don't want that guy having an 'assault rifle'. He's crazy."

The minutae of the law may matter down the road, but they don't matter right now. If we turn the public against us, we lose a lot of ground we've gained over the last 20 years.

When you strap on a firearm, you either become an asset to society or a liability. Your actions and just as importantly, your words represent all of us. Protecting yourself and your family is right. Tennessee has recognized using a firearm to do it a privilege. Regardless of how you feel about this, strapping on a weapon carries a heavily responsibility.

You represent us all. Act and speak wisely.

[Glock30]

So let me get this right. To some folks, just because Yeager's name is recognized, he isn't going to pay his bar tab at the end of the night? If James Holmes had a carry permit and in a "fit of rage" spouted off about killing people on YouTube, would we chalk that up to the first amendment or accept that he might mean it?

C'mon folks, the first amendment protects the right to have your own OPINION and the right to share a VIEWPOINT, not offer a solution to the political problems by KILLING people.

Had he talked about our nation's history of the people rising up against a government that oppressed them and how the people here won't accept oppression today, I would support the man 100%. You can't yank a permit over ideology. But he made very specific statements about killing people and even firing the first shot himself. I saw the video yesterday before he took it off YouTube, not read someone else's summary. Was he mad? You bet. And did I believe he was sincere? At the moment in time, I believe he meant every word.

People foolishly do things in the heat of the moment that they often regret. Foolish or not, the key is that people still "do things" that result in very real consequences.

As permit holders, I believe we are and SHOULD BE held to a higher standard. We must have better judgment, a cooler head, and more self-restraint. Yeager failed that test horribly and the state pulled his membership card accordingly. I will not have my rights, privileges, and protections afforded by the state of Tennessee thrown away because of one man's foolish act. Edited January 12, 2013 by Glock30

[RobertNashville]

I think I might have some input on this. Everyone keeps talking about the warning signs and no one taking action before it is too late. (cases where there have been warning signs) He made a general threat and it was taken serious so they acted.  (I don't believe he was planning anything myself, however one should not make general threats) If they had not acted and say for example the threat actually happened down the road, people would be complaining no action was taken with a threat..

I wonder; If James really does present a danger to the public, how exactly does suspending or revoking (or whatever they officially did) his HCP gong to protect anyone???

If he were truly a "danger" isn't he still a danger?

Does he have permits from other states?

If he really is intent on "killing people" do we think the lack of an HCP is going to stop that any more than a "gun free zone" stops crazy people from shooting up movie theaters or elementary schools?

I think this is TNDHS flexing its muscles and doing so in a way that ought to make all of us a bit nervous.

[Oh Shoot]

...Does he have permits from other states?

 

He'd be a total fool to try to use one to carry in TN. Oh wait...

 

- OS

[RobertNashville]

In my opinion Yeager is an asshat.  He got exactly what he deserved, his words demonstrated a clear threat to public safety.  The fact that people continue to seek out training from this man amazes me.  There are any number of equally or more qualified trainers out there who not only have the credentials but the professionalism i would expect. 

So...since you believe James is an asshat it's fine that that state suspend his HCP.

Is what he said really all that different than what many have been thinking in the privacy of their own thoughts or, more directly, said by some posters here on TGO? I've read some posts here that seemed to me to be as or at least close to being over the top as what he said....is everybody who thinks that way a "danger to the public"? Should TN suspend their HCPs as well or should that action be reserved only for those you consider them to be "asshats"?

[c.a.willard]

@ Robert   No revoking his permit does not lessen the threat, but it is acting within their authority and acting in a resonable and responsible manner.  As far as if he is truely a threat to public safety or not, i do not know.  I can not tell whats in the mans heart, but if you take his words at face value then yes he is a danger.

 

Edited to add:  I have yet to see a TGO member that said if they move one more inch im going to start killing people.  There have been a few that are fairly close to the line but yeager crossed clear as day.  He played the stupid game and he won the stupid prize. He went on you tube and made a public video threatening to kill people.  he may very well have just been angry and venting however the state can not necissarily take that risk. 

Edited January 12, 2013 by c.a.willard

[Superman]

Suspending his permit isnt going to cover their ass if he did do something. People will say the state knew he was a gun owner and they didnt take them away. But it doesn't really matter anyway, cause he isnt going to go off killing people and he will have his permit back before long. Yeager sure gets some of yall worked up for something that I am sure other people have already said. I dont follow Alex Jones, but doesnt he say stuff like this all the time.

[Glock30]

So...since you believe James is an asshat it's fine that that state suspend his HCP.

Is what he said really all that different than what many have been thinking in the privacy of their own thoughts or, more directly, said by some posters here on TGO? I've read some posts here that seemed to me to be as or at least close to being over the top as what he said....is everybody who thinks that way a "danger to the public"? Should TN suspend their HCPs as well or should that action be reserved only for those you consider them to be "asshats"?

You nailed it right there in the bold (my emphasis). To think and keep it to yourself is one thing. To announce and proclaim it for all the world to see is COMPLETELY another.

[K191145]

All things being equal, do you believe that this video would have gotten this kind of attention pre Sandy Hook? Would his permit still have been pulled?

 

 

This has nothing to do with Yeagers permit being pulled but I just posted this on channel 2s comment section on the link to the story about him. It's concerning the media coverage over this which I believe it's not that newsworthy of a story anyway.

 

[quote]Yes he said something stupid but I find it kind of ironic that the news will report on this nut but we never hear anything about the countless comments from anti-gun idiots making threats against the NRA and members. Texas Democratic party leader John Cobaruvvias advocated shooting NRA members on twitter. That's just one example of many, search, "threats against NRA".[/quote]

[JayC]

It doesn't appear to rise to the level of 'fighting words' or 'incitement' under current case law.

 

I'd suggest you read up on a case NAACP v. Claiborne Hardware 1966 - where a member of the NAACP stated: Uncle Toms' who broke the boycott would 'have their necks broken' by their own people.

 

Clearly that level of speech is much more of a threat than the speech Yeager made...  Here you have a person making a direct threat to a certain group of people that would be attacked if they crossed a picket line.  SCOTUS ruled in favor of the NAACP in this case....

 

 On its face Evers' speech seems like the very "threats of violence" that the Court states are unprotected.  However, given that this was a unanimous decision of the Supreme Court, it is important to examine what the Justices uniformly agreed was nonthreatening about Evers' statements.

 

Clear headed and responsible doesn't meet the legal definition for TDOS to revoke a permit, using otherwise protected speech as what appears to be the sole cause for revoking the permit appears to be unlawful under current case law.

 

What happens if it's later determined this was an unlawful action by TDOS?  Too much power in the hands of an unaccountable bureaucrat.

 

BTW this is exactly the type of tyranny that our founding fathers were warning us about IMHO...  No matter if you think Yeager is a grade A jerk (or worse), an unaccountable pencil pusher at TDOS should not have the ability to revoke a permit without a criminal charge, or a judge holding an open hearing (not an ex parte hearing) to confirm the evidence TDOS has rises to the level of a material threat to the public.

 

We need to demand from our legislators to place some level of check and balance to this process before a permit is revoked, and take it out of the hands of elected officials or bureaucrats.

 

As I see it there are 2 issues here, whether or not his speech was protected by the 1st amendment, and whether or not TN should have revoked his carry permit.

 

First there are limitations to the 1st amendment, and threatening to kill people in the way he did is probably not protected by the 1st.  Google "fighting words", "incitement", "inflammatory speech", "imminent lawless action", "clear and present danger" etc and read up.

Second, like it or not TN can pull your carry permit if they think you might be a danger.  After watching his video I'd tend to agree with their assessment as he does not come off as a clearheaded responsible permit holder.

 

I've always thought he was screwy btw.  He's the kind of nut that gives us gun owners bad reps imho.

Edited January 12, 2013 by JayC

[plank white]

All this bickering over some fella popping off at the gums? Well whatever yall can get all hot and bothered but as far I know a man has not only a right to his own opinion but also a right to speak his mind aswell I mean I watched the video if you listen he says "If" the pres. bypasses congress "wait isnt that supposed to be illegal" No this guy has said "If" things go one inch further Ima start killin people ....................Woopty ......Have you heard some of the music our kids listen to Just off the top of my head there is a rapper named young buck "From Tennessee" who has a song called "F* the police " 

 

Lyrics from that song, very popular song by the way "This is a guy who became famous by stabbing another guy at a music award show"

 

 

 

Will you step out of the car sir? Why you pull me over?
Looked him in his eye then took his head off his shoulders
Cocaine dreams I can see me runnin' the team
Some butt-naked bit*hes packin' grams of that green
Bustin' their patrol cars from the project roof-tops
Gotta keep 'em outta here so that we can move the rocks
Mafia, militant like a black panther
Im like a young Huey Newton in a black Phantom
Yo we shootin (yo we shootin), and recruitin (and recruitin)
Startin' riots (startin' riots), That's how we do it (that's how we do it)
And I'm not turnin' myself in so stop askin'
We hop out blastin', and walk out laughin'
Yea

  Now If ^^^ this crap is viable music and avalible readily to our young with Vulnerable minds because this Guy has a first Amendment 

 

How The heck do folks get so riled up about what this other guy says .Liberals are going bonkers and alot of gun owners are two Im sorry fellas but I gotta say Ive heard folks say stuff like this yeager guy said for years. When I heard him say it I thought to myself "Ballsy" and moved on how are we still stuck on this dude ? Isnt this like 3 days old already?

Edited January 12, 2013 by plank white

[Guest 6.8 AR]

What were the exact words he used that he edited out? In his interview with WSMV he admitted he said a couple of things in

the heat of anger he realized he should have not said, but I still don't know the exact things he said. "It's about time to start

killing people"? "I'm going to start killing people"? Did he threaten any one in particular? It makes a difference to me and I wish

I'd have watched the original video. What you see and what you perceive might have been different.

 

I don't give a rat's ass about what the public thinks any more. We are way beyond that. Doesn't mean I'm wanting to do something

stupid. I'm just an old fart and about all I ever wanted to do was live in a country that had a belief system like I thought it used to

have. So many of us understand that, yet, have to find a way to complain about perception? The media loves people like a lot of

us just like it loves people like Alex Jones and James Yeager. Put the radical name on them because they see some weird crap

going on and they are good for the camera lens for a liberal media to exploit. And that causes all this. The media has been

successful in ruining the "perception" about many things including the 2nd Amendment. Ben Shapiro was good, but it doesn't

matter. The damage was done with or without Yeager, Jones or whoever. Get your spokesman out there. He won't get his message

out. Claim that high moral ground all you want. That check was cashed by both political parties long ago. It'll bounce now.

 

When you are a nation of individuals you have a lot of individual thoughts and attitudes. A lot of time they are good and others

they are worthless. From Yeager's interview with WSMV, besides the eye movement, I thought he made his case. I don't know

about his hijinx overseas like some of you say, so I can't comment about that. I know people who go to his training facility and

come back with praise.

 

What worries me most is what people derive from a damned youtube video. I think most of them are crap, anyway. There must be

something I'm missing. We had a discussion going on in another thread that the word tyranny came up a lot. I thought it was getting

some traction, but I see it isn't if this is so important as to have so many people thinking it is okay for a government to have an

opinion, without a charge suspend someone's permit. Tyranny! I think I might be able to find some on this thread who would just

as soon throw the baby out with the bath water because of their dislike of this guy. But laws have guidelines and opinions don't

cut it. The decision to suspend his permit was based on someone's opinion, just like the opinion some of you have. Is that the way

government is supposed to run? By an opinion? That sounds like a version of mob rule to me.

 

All I'm saying is there could be some observance of the word "consistency" unless you want your cake now. It is completely lacking.

Kinda like that idea about spending all that money on schools from our dear federal government.

 

This Yeager/Jones thing is going to only be that distraction with the right hand while the left hand is giving us rectal exams.

[Oh Shoot]

What were the exact words he used that he edited out? In his interview with WSMV he admitted he said a couple of things in

the heat of anger he realized he should have not said, but I still don't know the exact things he said. "It's about time to start

killing people"? "I'm going to start killing people"? Did he threaten any one in particular? It makes a difference to me and I wish

I'd have watched the original video.

 

Here's first one I found. Lip synch is bad but it's the original audio. Probably won't be there too long, they keep zapping them:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9sMv9mcdc4

 

Here's just the part he edited out on "first revision", before part II, where he made whole new one:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2HH_2eSdDY

 

- OS

Edited January 12, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Guest bkelm18]

How The heck do folks get so riled up about what this other guy says .Liberals are going bonkers and alot of gun owners are two Im sorry fellas but I gotta say Ive heard folks say stuff like this yeager guy said for years. When I heard him say it I thought to myself "Ballsy" and moved on how are we still stuck on this dude ? Isnt this like 3 days old already?

 

Apparently you're new to the internet.

[bubbiesdad]

In my opinion Yeager is an asshat.  He got exactly what he deserved, his words demonstrated a clear threat to public safety.  The fact that people continue to seek out training from this man amazes me.  There are any number of equally or more qualified trainers out there who not only have the credentials but the professionalism i would expect. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2013 by bubbiesdad